Suudy
Active member
Well, it seems, then, that not all human life is inviolable. Did you see a quote from the Church indicating that was the case?Boy, you got me on that one.
Under Pope Francis, American Catholics see the ‘pro-life’ label as broader than abortion
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Path_Finder
Guest
I think what the Popes say is important, I am probably against the death penalty largely because Popes and other moral authorities have spoken against it.
At the same time, we have a real-life example today, the poor Jordanian pilot burned alive by ISIS.
Now, Jordan has announced they will execute the ISIS prisoner they have in custody, a prisoner if I understand this correctly, who was going to try to do a suicide bombing, It sounds and looks like she is a woman if I have this correctly and she was trying a suicide bombing with explosives strapped to her body and her husband had explosives strapped to his body. I believe the male’s explosives went off in Jordan, not sure if anyone else but he, the bomber was killed.
So, I try to be against the death penalty but I sometimes look at why these people are executed and admit, their crime is very heinous.
At the same time, we have a real-life example today, the poor Jordanian pilot burned alive by ISIS.
Now, Jordan has announced they will execute the ISIS prisoner they have in custody, a prisoner if I understand this correctly, who was going to try to do a suicide bombing, It sounds and looks like she is a woman if I have this correctly and she was trying a suicide bombing with explosives strapped to her body and her husband had explosives strapped to his body. I believe the male’s explosives went off in Jordan, not sure if anyone else but he, the bomber was killed.
So, I try to be against the death penalty but I sometimes look at why these people are executed and admit, their crime is very heinous.
Suudy
Active member
One other point about the death penalty is that it can serve as expiation for the sins of the condemned person. Say a convicted murderer sincerely repents. Their death can serve as penance for their crime. Which goes back to my earlier point out my biggest concern with the death penalty is those who condemn, not the condemned.
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LongingSoul
Guest
priestsforlife.org/columns/column99-08-16capitalpunishment.htm
I don’t know much about this organisation but it seems like a kosher Catholic position within the US>
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SWolf
Guest
Try again.
religionnews.com/2014/12/15/cardinal-timothy-dolan-cuts-ties-anti-abortion-crusadueer-frank-pavone/
Like I said, there is no real evidence that a pro-death penalty position fosters a pro-abortion mentality. The data does not back it up, regardless of what the Bishops say. If Church leaders say that… well… in policy matters Church leaders can be wrong.
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Ender
Guest
First of all, the church doesn’t refer to her doctrines in those terms. There may be individuals within the church who refer to capital punishment as a pro-life issue, but the church herself does not do that. Second, given that one is morally justified in taking either side of the issue, opposition to it cannot be termed pro-life in any meaningful sense of the term. The church has never made mere existence the highest of all objectives, and it is a mistake for us to elevate it to that level. Again, this approach merely diminishes the meaning of the term.
Where exactly does “the church” assert that opposition to capital punishment is a pro-life issue?
Ender
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Ender
Guest
Actually, what I said is that there were a few other issues that could justifiably be considered truly pro-life, all the rest are merely instances where someone wants us all to believe that his position represents the one and only moral stand, which is generally just nonsense. “Pro-life” is a valid term in those instances where it is validly applied, just not in the vast majority of cases where it is used.
Ender
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LongingSoul
Guest
Could you try and cut the snideness or your comebacks. Otherwise why don’t you ‘try again’ since you’ve linked me to some article about the rise of Puritanism in the US.
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SWolf
Guest
Interesting, it cut my link. Here you go.
religionnews.com/2014/12/15/cardinal-timothy-dolan-cuts-ties-anti-abortion-crusader-frank-pavone/
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Path_Finder
Guest
Father Pavone is to be respected and is probably correct in what he says and his organization has some prestige or quite a bit in the pro-life community.
There have been separate threads in this forumon Father Pavone and his ‘issues’ and some people would stick up for him.
So, again, I think this is a bit of a side issue, as Longing Soul has pointed out, Popes have indeed spoken against the death penalty and we can leave it at that. As pointed out, we can heed the advice but it is not from my understand, binding.
Father Pavone has not been in the news recently, so perhaps this issue has been ironed out finally.
Recent story, sorry if this was the other link: catholicglobe.org/?p=1227
There have been separate threads in this forumon Father Pavone and his ‘issues’ and some people would stick up for him.
So, again, I think this is a bit of a side issue, as Longing Soul has pointed out, Popes have indeed spoken against the death penalty and we can leave it at that. As pointed out, we can heed the advice but it is not from my understand, binding.
Father Pavone has not been in the news recently, so perhaps this issue has been ironed out finally.
Recent story, sorry if this was the other link: catholicglobe.org/?p=1227
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kozlosap
Guest
I had read that article several weeks ago and several others also. Cardinal Dolan had repeatedly requested the financials on PFL and was stonewalled by Father Pavone. I trust Cardinal Dolan on this issue. For some reason, FP doesn’t think that the Cardinal or the Vatican has any business “looking into” financial irregularities of the organization. I asked our Parish Pastor and he indicated that FP had been running rogue for several years in regards to PFL and was not inclined to obedience.
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Mystical_Seeker
Guest
What do you know of the Church’s “intentions?”
Diluting pro-life to mean something other than anti-abortion is not a BAD thing? Earlier you or someone who might as well be you as far as I’m concerned, chastised me for using the term “anti-abortion activists” when now you’re saying you aren’t really “pure” pro-life if you are anything but! Oh yeah maybe estesbob chastised me for it and you applauded.
Make up your mind. Is it “bad” to consider “pro-life” as merely an “anti-abortion political effort,” or is it more than that? That was the OP question in the first place. Now you are saying “pro-life” applies only to abortion.
I suppose we aren’t allowed to consider a “rainbow” as a sign of God’s covenant with Noah anymore, since LGBT people use it as their flag.
I never said there was a quote “from the Church.” I asked if YOU, or anyone else, uses the mantra “all human life is sacred” as a reason to oppose abortion. If you don’t believe that to be true, then you are exempt from the question on death penalty for the purposes of the point I am trying to make about consistency.
MS
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LongingSoul
Guest
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saintjohnxxiii
Guest
Spoken like a true politician. Isn’t it better to root out the idiots and maintain credibility?
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Mystical_Seeker
Guest
I AM a “true politician.” I work with these people behind the scenes. And yes I disagree with them about their strategy, but no I don’t generally go around providing fuel to the pro-aborts against our cause. They may not be doing it the way I think they should, but they are the ones currently in power and that’s what we have to work with.
I would not shoot the quarterback in the foot or announce to the crown that I know he cheated on his wife last night, because I don’t like a play he called. Why should I ruin political careers of people who’ve given collectively hundreds of years to the pro-life cause?
You are speaking like a person clueless about politics, and that’s my point. Learn how to play the game and maybe we’d start making more progress toward winning. At least quit feeding the “enemy” with enough confusion and hypocrisy by creating slogans we don’t intend to honor, so they may be used as legitimate arguments against the cause.
The problem we have is that pro-life politics is so much image-driven, that anything said “off the script” is likely to cause voters to flock away. I think we will be dug in for quite a while.
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Mystical_Seeker
Guest
Thank you for this good information. I only have a moment now to acknowledge it, but I intend to look into it further.
MS
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SWolf
Guest
I don’t remember where I said pro-life only means abortion. I said adding the Death Penalty dilutes the message because they are not near the same gravity.
The pro-life label also includes:
Euthanasia
The pro-life label does not include:
Death Penalty
Health Care
Gun Control
etc.
The latter are prudential judgments that there can be disagreement on. Abortion and Euthanasia are not. Abortion and Euthanasia are the same gravity of evil, and therefore do not dilute the overall message.
This has already been answered by Ender and others. There’s no contradiction.
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Darryl1958
Guest
Human life being sacred is the teaching of the Catholic catechism. To the extent that we are Catholic here, it is what we all believe.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm
The criticisms that we all need to be more loving and accept that human life is inviolable at all stages is also misplaced as a criticism of those who have rallied against abortion over the years. It implies that those who have used the pro-life banner to rally against abortion are not loving and accepting that all human life is inviolable. It is typically used by liberals against conservatives, for the assumption is that anyone who does not accept a cradle-to-grave welfare scheme is not loving and not a respecter of the principle of the inviolability of human life at all stages, from cradle to grave. It never occurs to the left how demeaning and against dignity many welfare schemes have proven themselves to be, and the many good reasons that certain economic systems have been opposed.
The Pro-life cause has very good reason to be leery of people who attempt to abscond the label for their own agendas, that place economic systems or capital punishment as even more important than speaking up for the silent unborn.
And the pro-life cause in fact has won the argument. There is no one on the pro-choice side who any longer deny that the unborn are human or aver the unborn are just protoplasmic tissue. Platitudes about the right to chose abound in the popular culture, but the Maudes on the media are few and far between, with the characters in movies and TV chosing life over abortion.
Everybody knows that there is a baby involved now. The pro-life argument has carried the day as being the valid one.
The remaining battle lies with changing the courts, and for that to happen, the power base of leftists needs to be undermined. That will never happen as long as Catholics place leftist causes over and above the issue of the unborn, which is the only life issue in Western society that involves a situation that can accurately be described as genocidal.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm
If there is an inconsistency here, it goes directly to Catholic teaching, and not to Catholics purported to be using the term as a anti-abortion mantra.
The criticisms that we all need to be more loving and accept that human life is inviolable at all stages is also misplaced as a criticism of those who have rallied against abortion over the years. It implies that those who have used the pro-life banner to rally against abortion are not loving and accepting that all human life is inviolable. It is typically used by liberals against conservatives, for the assumption is that anyone who does not accept a cradle-to-grave welfare scheme is not loving and not a respecter of the principle of the inviolability of human life at all stages, from cradle to grave. It never occurs to the left how demeaning and against dignity many welfare schemes have proven themselves to be, and the many good reasons that certain economic systems have been opposed.
The Pro-life cause has very good reason to be leery of people who attempt to abscond the label for their own agendas, that place economic systems or capital punishment as even more important than speaking up for the silent unborn.
And the pro-life cause in fact has won the argument. There is no one on the pro-choice side who any longer deny that the unborn are human or aver the unborn are just protoplasmic tissue. Platitudes about the right to chose abound in the popular culture, but the Maudes on the media are few and far between, with the characters in movies and TV chosing life over abortion.
Everybody knows that there is a baby involved now. The pro-life argument has carried the day as being the valid one.
The remaining battle lies with changing the courts, and for that to happen, the power base of leftists needs to be undermined. That will never happen as long as Catholics place leftist causes over and above the issue of the unborn, which is the only life issue in Western society that involves a situation that can accurately be described as genocidal.
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Mystical_Seeker
Guest
OK.
You all win.
Yes, there are people who are more informed about abortion now. That is progress.
As far as Roe v Wade, keep up the “refuse to negotiate” theme, and you can ride that as long as you live, and your descendants can pick up on it and still never win.
Last year, my political science professor, who is himself a conservative pro-life Republican (and is the first one some TV cameras go to in the town for political opinions on current events) but is respected and known personally by many state, US and local politicians and knows the people involved, confirmed my theory that their “all or nothing” strategy was destined to lose, whereas they may have saved babies had they listened to me and called the governor’s bluff. The governor knew he’d never have to sign a bill, because he knew they would never deliver one to him under a condition he could easily sell to the public.
But go ahead and do it your way. If you don’t grasp what I’m telling you now – not about morality but about strategy and keeping our public messages free of logical self-contradictions – then I give up.
You all win.
Yes, there are people who are more informed about abortion now. That is progress.
As far as Roe v Wade, keep up the “refuse to negotiate” theme, and you can ride that as long as you live, and your descendants can pick up on it and still never win.
Last year, my political science professor, who is himself a conservative pro-life Republican (and is the first one some TV cameras go to in the town for political opinions on current events) but is respected and known personally by many state, US and local politicians and knows the people involved, confirmed my theory that their “all or nothing” strategy was destined to lose, whereas they may have saved babies had they listened to me and called the governor’s bluff. The governor knew he’d never have to sign a bill, because he knew they would never deliver one to him under a condition he could easily sell to the public.
But go ahead and do it your way. If you don’t grasp what I’m telling you now – not about morality but about strategy and keeping our public messages free of logical self-contradictions – then I give up.
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Ender
Guest
Yes, that is exactly what the church teaches.as long as a man is without guilt, his life is untouchable…God is the sole lord of the life of a man not guilty of a crime punishable by the death penalty. (Pius XII, To the San Luca Medical-Biologicial Union, 1944)
“Thou shalt not kill:” The life of each is equally sacred, and no one has the power, not even the public authority, to destroy it. It is of no use to appeal to the right of taking away life for here it is a question of the innocent, whereas that right has regard only to the guilty; (Pius XI, Casti Connubii 64)
Ender
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