Under what circumstances can non-Catholics be saved?

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JSmitty2005:
Okay, even though we have that cleared up, we still haven’t answered whether or not a non-Catholic can commit a mortal sin in their lifetime and still attain salvation.
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As far as I know (I’m no expert / theologian / apologist)…

Can a non-Catholic commit mortal sin? Yep, because of NML (Natural Moral Law) there are some things that everyone knows are grave matters deep down inside them, like murder. Gravity is an objective matter, so then all that remains is the full consent to make these matters mortal.

Can they still attain salvation? If they can’t go to reconciliation, because they aren’t baptised, then can they be forgiven of their mortal sin? Well, the thing is that God uses the sacraments to impart grace but He is not bound by them. For example, if a Catholic commits a mortal sin, repents, and then dies before he can get to reconciliation (maybe even dies while he’s on his way to reconciliation), he is (most likely, as far as I know) forgiven and restored to a state of grace when he dies and hence can go to heaven. God does not condemn us just for bad timing, if a person truly has had a change of heart then he’s already done the most part of being reconciled with God.

So, why shouldn’t this also work for non-Catholics? If a non-Catholic is truly repentant of his sins, but just hasn’t been to reconciliation because he doesn’t know what it is, or however you explain it, then God can still forgive him. The only question that remains is, how can he repent if he doesn’t have the same definition of sin as us? Well, one kind of contrition has nothing to do with God - it is basically being sorry for your sin just because the sin itself is such a bad thing. This is a kind of imperfect contrition but it is still good enough for repentance and reconciliation. Of course, if it is a matter of NML so that the non-Catholic knows it to be wrong anyway then he can certainly have this kind of contrition. And he can certainly also take the next step - making a resolve to never again commit this sin - all without knowing God, because by his conscience he still knows right and wrong and hence he can repent.

Log explanation, but anyway, in summary, a non-Catholic can commit mortal sin, repent, be forgiven and get into heaven.
 
Non- Catholic Christians are saved or born again by faith. Heb.11 ;6 “without faith it is impossible to please God”. No other ingredient can be added, not baptism, not church menbership, nothing can be added to the agony and shame of the Cross. God simply will not allow it. To add to the work of Christ on the Cross is in itself a sin. Romans 3;28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
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allischalmers:
Non- Catholic Christians are saved or born again by faith.
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No. Non-Catholic Christians think that they are saved by being born again by faith alone. That is an important distinction. Believing something to be true doesn’t make it so.
 
Sorry;
I did not say that non-Catholic Chriatian believe they are born again by faith alone. We know we are born again by faith alone. I know the exact time that the Spirit of God witnessed to my human spirit that is was born again. It was of faith that God had gifted to me that made me a believer, all of God’s loving grace. I did nothing!

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
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allischalmers:
Non- Catholic Christians are saved or born again by faith. Heb.11 ;6 “without faith it is impossible to please God”. No other ingredient can be added, not baptism, not church menbership, nothing can be added to the agony and shame of the Cross. God simply will not allow it. To add to the work of Christ on the Cross is in itself a sin. Romans 3;28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

forever Baptist
allischalmers
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The deeds of the law Paul was referencing was the old Mosaic law. He was specifically addressing the heresy of the Judaizers who claimed to be Christians but in addition to having faith in Christ they also professed that you had to keep the old Mosaic law as well. This does not apply to works of love in Christ or works through faith- in fact, James commands us to have works as proof of our faith. Faith without works is dead faith.

It requires more than faith. Baptism by water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is an absolute must:

Jn 3:5, 22 - born of water & Spirit; Apostles begin baptizing
Tit 3:5 - saved us through bath of rebirth & renewal by Holy Spirit
Acts 2:37-38 - repent, be baptized, receive gift of Holy Spirit
Acts 22:16 - get selves baptized and sins washed away
1Cor 6:11 - you were washed, sanctified, justified
Rom 6:4 - baptized into death; live in newness of life
1Pet 3:21 - baptism…now saves you
Heb 10:22 - heart sprinkled, bodies washed in pure water
 
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JSmitty2005:
I am trying to understand the dogma myself! As for going straight to Hell, all I can say is that the Council of Florence defined, in Session VI, the following:

“The souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”

“Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.’” (John 3:3)

Hence the absolute necessity for baptism to attain salvation whether it be by water, blood, or desire.

I’m sorry if you don’t like it. It’s from the Mouth of God.
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Scripture doesn’t mention anything about being Catholic to obtain salvation. Most non-Catholic Christians are baptised by water and accept Jesus Christ. The terms original sin and mortal sin mean nothing to them. Doesn’t sound like a formula for going to Hell to me.
 
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mikew262:
And there lies alot of the problem.
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Not at all. Because the Christ left and established the Catholic Church as His Mystical Body, as the New Ark of salvation, where Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium ensure Truth and Unity.
 
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doomhammer:
Not at all. Because the Christ left and established the Catholic Church as His Mystical Body, as the New Ark of salvation, where Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium ensure Truth and Unity.
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Well, thats a good Catholic book answer, but if you look how split Christianity is as a whole, it’s little more complicated.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a Catholic, and I feel the Church comes the closest to what Jesus had in mind.

However, I just don’t agree that all non-Catholic Christians are lost just because they don’t belong to the Catholic Church. They accept Jesus Christ, and they try to follow what the Bible teaches. Did Jesus really ask any more than that?
 
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mikew262:
They accept Jesus Christ, and they try to follow what the Bible teaches. Did Jesus really ask any more than that?
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Actually He did. But first off, He never even asked anyone to “accept Him.” Even Satan accepts that Jesus is Lord and Savior of the world! :rolleyes: Also, He never asked anyone to follow what the Bible teaches. We are to follow Him. He did say that whoever doesn’t listen to the Church is considered a heathen. Should we follow that teaching? He told the Apostles that whoever rejects them rejects Him. Should we listen to Jesus? He warned that people would distort the Scriptures to their own destruction. :hmmm:
 
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mikew262:
Did Jesus really ask any more than that?
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John 15,5: “without me you can do nothing.” What does Jesus say? “without me you can do nothing.” And where is Jesus? Where He dwells after his Holy Resurrection? Where we can eat His Flesh? Where we have secure guidance? Why Jesus established the Church? Is the Church “an optional”? Where we are free of heresy? What authority He established? Where we can be with Him? Because He said: “without me you can do nothing.” The Apostles were Catholics or Protestants? And the Popes? Who abandoned the True Church? The Catholics? The Protestants?
 
Allischalmers, please don’t hijack threads. It’s bad forum etiquette and not very respectful to other forum users. If you read through this thread, the OP is clearly directing his question at Catholics, trying to work out what the Church teaches on salvation for non-Catholics and how to make sense of it. Your off topic 2c on your own beliefs is not appreciated as it just sent the thread on a tangent. You could create your own separate thread if you want to discuss salvation from your perspective, that would be more appropriate.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Actually He did. But first off, He never even asked anyone to “accept Him.” Even Satan accepts that Jesus is Lord and Savior of the world! :rolleyes: Also, He never asked anyone to follow what the Bible teaches. We are to follow Him. He did say that whoever doesn’t listen to the Church is considered a heathen. Should we follow that teaching? He told the Apostles that whoever rejects them rejects Him. Should we listen to Jesus? He warned that people would distort the Scriptures to their own destruction. :hmmm:
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Ok, follow. However, who says non-Catholic Christians don’t follow Jesus? Who says they don’t listen to Jesus? To say Catholics are the only ones who will obtain salvation is pretty elitest and presumptous.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Okay, even though we have that cleared up, we still haven’t answered whether or not a non-Catholic can commit a mortal sin in their lifetime and still attain salvation.
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Good question.
So we must ask: To what extent can the pagans, who see in many ethical violations no offence against any god whatsoever-to what extent can they contract formal moral guilt on such matters? It is difficult to judge, and best to leave the decision to the judgment of God. But at least we can say, in the light of these facts, that the case of the pagans proves nothing against the true force of the universal salvific will.
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catholicculture.org/docs/most/getchap.cfm?WorkNum=214&ChapNum=34
 
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mikew262:
Ok, follow. However, who says non-Catholic Christians don’t follow Jesus?
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I don’t think I’ve said that, but I do believe that they are in a state of disobedience by not listening to the Church but they may not be at fault for this, so it shouldn’t be held against them. They certainly have many truths in their religion, but they have not truth in its entirety. Only the Catholic Church can claim that. They follow Jesus in what they know about Him through the Bible, but they disobey Him by not listening to His Church.
Who says they don’t listen to Jesus?
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I don’t recall saying such a thing.
To say Catholics are the only ones who will obtain salvation is pretty elitest and presumptous.
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I don’t remember saying that. All I know is that it is Church dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church. That dogma has never been interpreted as strictly as it sounds. AND THIS THREAD IS ALL ABOUT HOW NON-CATHOLICS CAN BE SAVED! How many times do I have to say that?
 
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