Understanding islam?

[Reuben_J]

There are different Christian sects as well. Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventist, Jehovah Witnesses etc… So many Christian sects, and they don’t all interpret the bible the same.

Just as you don’t consider all these other sects to be correct, i do not consider those other sects to be correct either.

Sure but we are talking about the ‘unfriendly verses’ of the Quran which deals with Muslims’ relationship with non-Muslims particularly Christians and Jews. It is not about the Pope, or Virgin Mary or the Eucharist or purgatory which the various Christian denominations you mentioned that differ from Catholicism.

 

[TheSufi]

And which scholar would that be?

I am not trying to be argumentative nor do I am forcing you to say that you change your interpretation of the verse. I am merely saying that such verse is game for an alternative interpretation. From a non-Muslim perspective, you theSufi would probably the Muslims we prefer, but you by no means represent Islam as a whole. By the way, how big is your sect in proportion to the Islamic world? Even among the Sunnis, there are independent Imams who wield strong influence over Muslims and yet they are from the same Sunni sect.

I know this is an ugly topic which I would rather not discuss but then, here it is, in a thread and such hard talk and scrutiny can’t really be avoided if one really have to be honest about it and not just merely politically correct.

Any of the traditional Sunni scholars there are many around the world.

Peace

 

[TheSufi]

Sure but we are talking about the ‘unfriendly verses’ of the Quran which deals with Muslims’ relationship with non-Muslims particularly Christians and Jews. It is not about the Pope, or Virgin Mary or the Eucharist or purgatory which the various Christian denominations you mentioned that differ from Catholicism.

Ok, I quoted some unfriendly verses from the bible used to enslave human beings and kill people.

 

[jimkhong]

I know, but thanks Jim. I told theSufi that his interpretation may be different from the Imams whom he said ignorant just because they interpret differently. I did not say his interpretation is wrong. My whole point was that the said Quran verse opens to various interpretations simply because the language of the verse is very obvious. We have to remember that the Quran is full of exhortations and usually the situation on how a verse is proclaimed is not included as the verses are arranged haphazardly (probably similar to the Bible Book of Proverbs). There are so many verses exhorting to be unfriendly to non-Muslims that it is difficult not to believe them.

A good example - even theSufi himself considers another poster to appear to be an enemy of Islam simply based of what he has been discussing and this would qualify this poster in theSufi’s interpretation as one who is not be a friend as the verse teaches.

Here is one thing we Christians do which Muslims don’t. Because Muslims believe God’s revelation is complete with Mohammad and the Quran, they accept the Quran as it is and do not study the social and political forces behind the author. After all, if you believe that God himself wrote the scriptures, there is no hermuenetics and exegesis to do. I know of Jesuit scholars of the Quran who were asked by Egyptian religious academicians to do the hermeunetics and exegesis on the Quran because they theselves can’t do it.

So, if you were to look at the Quran in this way, which Muslims ordinarily are not allowed to consider:

1 The Quran is written by Mohammad, a person of Semitic origin, the same origins as the writers of the Bible. Semitic people in those days (as do Arabs today and Arabised non-Arab cultures) employ a lot of hyperbole in their speech. The Bible and the Quran are therefore replete with such hyperbole and we need to read these passages with care.

2 The author (our understanding of author, not Muslim) of the Quran has much interactions with Christians and Jews. It was an unfortunate twist of history that the Chirstianity he encountered was riven by theological disputes, which often decend into riots. While he did recognise the fundamental truth of the message of Christians, he was turned off by the vicious intra-Christian fights and obviously cannot see the fullness of God in such Christians. Hence, the dual views of Christians obvious in the Quran: protect them as God has clearly brought them the message (what they believe) but do not follow their hyprocrisy (what they do or are).

The lack of a supranational authority in Sunni Islam and the theocratic nature of the religion is largely, IMHO, is not compatible with the growth of Islam in the modern world. The influence of political Islam on the religious conciousness of Muslims has grown to the point of (at least partly) basing the values of many Muslims on political considerations. It is unfortunate that the continuing sufferings of the Palestinians (especially as perceived by Muslims) has led many Muslims to believe it to be a religious obligation to oppose Israel and all who support Israel.

I am interested in theSufi’s views that such a political situation is brought about by the lack of education. I think it is more accurate that it was brought about by an education that emphasise the victimhood of Muslims at the hands of the Crusaders (Israel is just another Crusader nation to them). Such a conditioning obviously leads to the reading of the passage by some Islamic leaders the way you have encountered.

The lack of the supranational religious authority largely arises from Muslims not being able to call another Muslim an infidel (meaning destined for hell). To anathemise a co-religionist like we do at our Ecumenical Councils etc is just not possible in Islam. This difficulty in condemning the religious basis of another Muslim means that extreme forces in Islam continue to tear it apart. I pray that Orthodox Islam will be able to reclaim Islam from political Islam bent on avenging the slights of Westerners.

Does this mean the Islam is wrong? Not in the sense that the fundamental truth of their human values and virtues are still compatible with ours. It is just that a 7th century religious polity and a doctrine fundamentally different from our Newmanian doctrine of development means that it may be difficult Islam to adapt to a globalised 20th century world - difficult, but not impossible.

 

[jimkhong]

Not easy to explain, in a few words.

Can always do so by personal mail if you so desire.

 

[Reuben_J]

Ok, I quoted some unfriendly verses from the bible used to enslave human beings and kill people.

Be my guest. You are welcome to do so and we certainly will not consider you as an anemy of Christianity but in fact it will give us an opportunity for us to explain to you about our faith. You will find that there is no general exhortation to kill our enemy or not to take a particular religion as friends.

Start another thread for it.

 

[Starrsmother]

I’m going to be brave and ask a sincere question on this thread–it doesn’t pertain to either the christian or muslim philosophies though. It’s just a question that I’ve had for a long time–wanted to ask a muslim–and since I can’t say that I personally know any muslims, would like to know if a muslim on this thread would be comfortable in answering me. If I offend any muslim brother or sister out there with my question–please forgive me in advance–as no disrespect is meant.

Okay, here goes: I am an older Catholic woman in my 60’s. My oldest daughter nearly was involved in one of the Twin Towers-911 when that particular debaucle went down. I’ll spare you the details of our horrible hours before locating her and discovering that she was safe (Praise God!)–but had she not developed strep throat and at the last moment decided to skip a meeting that day–I’d be the mother of four today rather than five. Mothers tend to remember these things and ponder them in their hearts. It would never occur to me to either strap on a bomb and blow up a plane OR to encourage my child do such a thing. I think–in the interest of honesty though-- that even many muslims out there would have to agree that this happens seemingly all too frequently in the muslim culture. Muslim mothers seemingly DO encourage such behavior–and young muslim people DO seem–shall we say-- at least PRONE–to such things in the eyes of many of us non-muslims–and it’s scary!. I am also even willing to consider that this is done by radical elements ONLY who don’t represent the muslim faith as a whole–as so often is asserted. The thing is though, I really don’t pretend to understand how to tell radical from regular–until something goes BOOM!

As a Catholic, if I heard that multiple groups of radical catholics were doing some of the same things that radical muslim elements have done since 911, as a catholic, I would have absolutely NO problem condemning such elements. If the Pope himself were involved–I would stand up and condemn the pope! I certainly would never plan a “Million Catholic March” on DC on the anniversary date of when a group of catholic terrorists had done something absolutely horrific! I would ALSO expect every legitimate catholic priest from the pope on down to stand up against such things. But in Islam, the imams(sp?) don’t seem to condemn such–I mean, not REALLY! Sometimes I hear a sort of wishy-washy kind of half statement of regret from some sort of low-level muslim leader–but nothing that even seems to half-pass for a true condemnation–and certainly not from muslim hierarchy.

So. Why is that? I’d love to be convinced that islam is a peaceful religion–but frankly, I am a little afraid to get on an airplane with anyone who looks or acts even vaguely muslim these days–and so are the majority of other people that I happen to know–though they may be too PC to come right out and call it as they see it. I’m too old for PC. Plus, I almost lost a daughter over this subject. Please convince me why Christians should not fear muslims and perhaps why we are wrong to maybe wish they were not even allowed to immigrate into America, England, any Western country etc in the first place? I am serious here–I want to know as I struggle within my heart not to judge (and I’ve been struggling with this for YEARS now) WHY SHOULD I NOT BE AFRAID OF YOU AS A RELIGION? And again–if I phrase this poorly, I apologize. I think sometimes though that people are so ridiculously PC today that they are afraid to ask the real, sincere question that weighs on their heart–and thus they never get an answer. If there IS an honest answer–I’ d love to know the truth.

 

[Kurama]

I have a few Muslim friends, and they are probably the only people who I talk to about religion.

It’s great to have interfaith discussions but I’ve found that they tend to persuade me that Christianity is a heretical form of Islam, they try to make alleged historical assumptions that the Trinity doesnt exist and so on. All I can say is that we should treat Islam like any other distinct world religion. While it may have some similarities to Christianity, bear in mind that Zoroastrianism and Bahá’í also have similarities.

Christians and Muslims should be like yin and yang, we must have a large degree of mutual respect for each other, but we must not trespass on each other’s faith…that would result in conflict.

 

[Reuben_J]

Here is one thing we Christians do which Muslims don’t. Because Muslims believe God’s revelation is complete with Mohammad and the Quran, they accept the Quran as it is and do not study the social and political forces behind the author. After all, if you believe that God himself wrote the scriptures, there is no hermuenetics and exegesis to do. I know of Jesuit scholars of the Quran who were asked by Egyptian religious academicians to do the hermeunetics and exegesis on the Quran because they theselves can’t do it.

So, if you were to look at the Quran in this way, which Muslims ordinarily are not allowed to consider:

1 The Quran is written by Mohammad, a person of Semitic origin, the same origins as the writers of the Bible. Semitic people in those days (as do Arabs today and Arabised non-Arab cultures) employ a lot of hyperbole in their speech. The Bible and the Quran are therefore replete with such hyperbole and we need to read these passages with care.

2 The author (our understanding of author, not Muslim) of the Quran has much interactions with Christians and Jews. It was an unfortunate twist of history that the Chirstianity he encountered was riven by theological disputes, which often decend into riots. While he did recognise the fundamental truth of the message of Christians, he was turned off by the vicious intra-Christian fights and obviously cannot see the fullness of God in such Christians. Hence, the dual views of Christians obvious in the Quran: protect them as God has clearly brought them the message (what they believe) but do not follow their hyprocrisy (what they do or are).

The lack of a supranational authority in Sunni Islam and the theocratic nature of the religion is largely, IMHO, is not compatible with the growth of Islam in the modern world. The influence of political Islam on the religious conciousness of Muslims has grown to the point of (at least partly) basing the values of many Muslims on political considerations. It is unfortunate that the continuing sufferings of the Palestinians (especially as perceived by Muslims) has led many Muslims to believe it to be a religious obligation to oppose Israel and all who support Israel.

I am interested in theSufi’s views that such a political situation is brought about by the lack of education. I think it is more accurate that it was brought about by an education that emphasise the victimhood of Muslims at the hands of the Crusaders (Israel is just another Crusader nation to them). Such a conditioning obviously leads to the reading of the passage by some Islamic leaders the way you have encountered.

The lack of the supranational religious authority largely arises from Muslims not being able to call another Muslim an infidel (meaning destined for hell). To anathemise a co-religionist like we do at our Ecumenical Councils etc is just not possible in Islam. This difficulty in condemning the religious basis of another Muslim means that extreme forces in Islam continue to tear it apart. I pray that Orthodox Islam will be able to reclaim Islam from political Islam bent on avenging the slights of Westerners.

Does this mean the Islam is wrong? Not in the sense that the fundamental truth of their human values and virtues are still compatible with ours. It is just that a 7th century religious polity and a doctrine fundamentally different from our Newmanian doctrine of development means that it may be difficult Islam to adapt to a globalised 20th century world - difficult, but not impossible.

Thanks for a well written informative post. You have covered the subject well. I have a little comment on ‘orthodox Islam’ though which probably in here, if I understand you correctly, where I differ somewhat. Islam is not apolitical but a way of life. Sufism in Islam is sadly peripheral in its importance to the religion and to Islamic nation itself. Islam has its own set of law to be used to govern a country and Muslims ultimately would strive for an Islamic nation as the final objective. A Sufi Muslim who lives as an island is not the ideal of a functioning Islam. You are right in that it is difficult for Islam to adapt to a globalised 20th century world but that is more so because of its law which was founded in the seventh century. Unlike morality which does not change with time, law is for a specific society and specific era.

 

[jimkhong]

Thanks for a well written informative post. You have covered the subject well. I have a little comment on ‘orthodox Islam’ though which probably in here, if I understand you correctly, where I differ somewhat. Islam is not apolitical but a way of life. Sufism in Islam is sadly peripheral in its importance to the religion and to Islamic nation itself. Islam has its own set of law to be used to govern a country and Muslims ultimately would strive for an Islamic nation as the final objective. A Sufi Muslim who lives as an island is not the ideal of a functioning Islam. You are right in that it is difficult for Islam to adapt to a globalised 20th century world but that is more so because of its law which was founded in the seventh century. Unlike morality which does not change with time, law is for a specific society and specific era.

Reuben, glad we agree after much discussions.

I too wish there were more Sufis, sadly though tolerated but much looked down among Muslims. A religious movement with roots in Sunni Islam and Coptic monasticism must have a role in this creed-torn world.

I will leave you with something I learnt from a Sufi on this subject: Inter-religious dialogue is like opening windows to each other. We learn much from looking into each others’ homes. But windows imply walls. And all of us engaged in inter-religious dialogue must know the walls of our creed.

That has always stayed with me and has kept me rooted in my religion while talking to non-Catholics.

 

[TheSufi]

Be my guest. You are welcome to do so and we certainly will not consider you as an anemy of Christianity but in fact it will give us an opportunity for us to explain to you about our faith. You will find that there is no general exhortation to kill our enemy or not to take a particular religion as friends.

Start another thread for it.

But you might take me from my home land and you might enslave me, make me a Christian, force me to eat pigs guts, rape my mother and sister in the process, whip me to death if I oppose you.

And if I get my freedom you might dress up in white clothes revealing only your eyes and burn a cross on my lawn, and even hang us for opposing you.
The thing Christians did to Africans.

 

[Reuben_J]

But you might take me from my home land and you might enslave me, make me a Christian, force me to eat pigs guts, rape my mother and sister in the process, whip me to death if I oppose you.

And if I get my freedom you might dress up in white clothes revealing only your eyes and burn a cross on my lawn, and even hang us for opposing you.
The thing Christians did to Africans.

Agreed, but what has that got to do with this thread? I told you about the Magisterium, the Church’s teaching office if you want to know about what the Church teaches. You can start a new thread if you have problem with Biblical verses and I would try to answer you. One thing you can be sure brother, is that I will not consider you as an enemy.:console:

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben, glad we agree after much discussions.

I too wish there were more Sufis, sadly though tolerated but much looked down among Muslims. A religious movement with roots in Sunni Islam and Coptic monasticism must have a role in this creed-torn world.

I will leave you with something I learnt from a Sufi on this subject: Inter-religious dialogue is like opening windows to each other. We learn much from looking into each others’ homes. But windows imply walls. And all of us engaged in inter-religious dialogue must know the walls of our creed.

That has always stayed with me and has kept me rooted in my religion while talking to non-Catholics.

Thanks for the word of wisdom. I am much the richer for it. I would try my best but sometimes to be frank would sometimes has its consequences. Christian-Muslim dialogue often ends up stalemated. If you are long enough on this board you would see that many such threads being closed due to inability of being objective. It says much about our respective maturity but we are learning nevertheless; it is a lifelong journey.

God bless.

 

[TheSufi]

Be my guest. You are welcome to do so and we certainly will not consider you as an anemy of Christianity but in fact it will give us an opportunity for us to explain to you about our faith. You will find that there is no general exhortation to kill our enemy or not to take a particular religion as friends.

Start another thread for it.

I am not allowed to say what I want to say. My post was deleted.

Peace.

 

[dronald]

Well, perhaps that is ideal, but we don’t live in an ideal world. We live in a world of human beings, who have personal desires, goals and outlooks, which sometime does not conform to that which is ideal. And thus people make incorrect interpretations, while still believing in Jesus to fulfill their personal desires, goals and outlooks.

And this gave birth to protestant Christianity.

And we too have protestant Muslims.

Protestant Christians never kill anyone in the name of Christianity while quoting the Bible. Neither do Catholics.

Muslims do. [Qur’an]

 

[TheSufi]

Protestant Christians never kill anyone in the name of Christianity while quoting the Bible. Neither do Catholics.

Muslims do. [Qur’an]

Actually Catholics killed Orthodox Christians, something I was taught by Orthodox Christians.
And Protestant Christians enslaved Africans and formed the KKK and lynched African Americans, yes they have.

Don’t forget the Salem witch hunts/

if you like, I can do an indepth research and see what else I can find.

 

[Reuben_J]

I am not allowed to say what I want to say. My post was deleted.

Peace.

Probably you are saying unsubstantiated accusation and untruth. Why don’t you start a new thread and phrase your sentence properly. As I said, I would be glad to address your assertion. We are very transparent with our belief.

 

[Reuben_J]

Actually Catholics killed Orthodox Christians, something I was taught by Orthodox Christians.
And Protestant Christians enslaved Africans and formed the KKK and lynched African Americans, yes they have.

Don’t forget the Salem witch hunts/

if you like, I can do an indepth research and see what else I can find.

Irrelevant. Start a new thread. This is Islam thread.

 

[TheSufi]

Probably you are saying unsubstantiated accusation and untruth. Why don’t you start a new thread and phrase your sentence properly. As I said, I would be glad to address your assertion. We are very transparent with our belief.

That is exactly how I feel about what you posted.

You present Islam as hateful violent religion. As long as you present Islam in this way, I will present Christianity in this same way.

I was not taught to hate and indiscriminately kill non-Muslims.

So if you want to present Islam in an hateful and violent way. I will present Christianity in the exact same way. And what I have presented, aren’t untruths. These types of Christians have existed in history, where did they get it from if not the bible?

Peace.

 

[Reuben_J]

That is exactly how I feel about what you posted.

You present Islam as hateful violent religion. As long as you present Islam in this way, I will present Christianity in this same way.

I was not taught to hate and indiscriminately kill non-Muslims.

So if you want to present Islam in an hateful and violent way. I will present Christianity in the exact same way.

Peace.

That is why I ask you to start a new thread and you can present Christianity as how you think fit. I will address your concern.

I did not present Islam as a violent religion. I was merely discussing about the verse of Al-Mā’idah 51 which was brought up by another poster. You give your interpretation and I told you there are Imams who interpret this differently. It is not my interpretation. I did say that Sufism in Islam is not the main spirituality and therefore your view could be the minority.

Al-Mā’idah 51
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

If this translation is wrong, then why don’t you give another translation?

You said something about situational yet you declare that a poster is appearing to be an enemy of Islam just by discussing about Islam. How easy it is to brand a person as an enemy of Islam. We know what it means, even if you don’t say it, what a Muslim would do to an enemy of Islam according to the Quran. Definitely they will not take them as friends. It could be harsher though. It is from your Quran. I do not make the interpretation, which I cannot say for you when you interpreted Biblical verses according to your understanding.