Understanding islam?

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TheSufi said:
I was not taught to hate and indiscriminately kill non-Muslims.

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But, you are not Islam. Perhaps those muslims who blow up mosques in Iraq say the same thing you do. I suspect they think that they are killing some infidels.

You do not represent anyone other than yourself. Your views would probably get you killed in most Islamic countries. You would get killed because you would be seen as an enemy of that islam which you are defending here.

Your arguments remind me a lot of the arguments used by the Marxist a few decades ago. They insisted that communism (applied Marxism) is the perfect political system. When they were reminded that communism killed perhaps 100,000,000 people in the XX century, they would begrudgingly acknowledge this fact, but still defend their “religion” that was responsible for it. To them, their ideology was more important.
If their ideology was contradicted by facts, their response was “too bad for the facts”.
 
Ontheway said:
But, you are not Islam. Perhaps those muslims who blow up mosques in Iraq say the same thing you do. I suspect they think that they are killing some infidels.

You do not represent anyone other than yourself. Your views would probably get you killed in most Islamic countries. You would get killed because you would be seen as an enemy of that islam which you are defending here.

Your arguments remind me a lot of the arguments used by the Marxist a few decades ago. They insisted that communism (applied Marxism) is the perfect political system. When they were reminded that communism killed perhaps 100,000,000 people in the XX century, they would begrudgingly acknowledge this fact, but still defend their “religion” that was responsible for it. To them, their ideology was more important.
If their ideology was contradicted by facts, their response was “too bad for the facts”.
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If that is how Catholics view things, than I’ve wasted my time here.

Peace
 
dronald said:
Protestant Christians never kill anyone in the name of Christianity while quoting the Bible. Neither do Catholics.

Muslims do. [Qur’an]
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Can’t blame them as they are pretty much in their holy scripture and are subjected to interpretation just as the Bible is subjected to interpretation. 🤷
 
dronald said:
Protestant Christians never kill anyone in the name of Christianity while quoting the Bible. Neither do Catholics.

Muslims do. [Qur’an]
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St Bartholomew’s Day massacre
Spanish Inquisition (at least some of the more unsavoury aspects of it)
Jewish pogroms
Bloody Mary
St Thomas More & John Fisher

(only the cases where Bible/Church is given as the reason, not purely nationalistic reasons. More if you need them)
 
Reuben_J said:
Thanks for the word of wisdom. I am much the richer for it. 🙂 I would try my best but sometimes to be frank would sometimes has its consequences. Christian-Muslim dialogue often ends up stalemated. If you are long enough on this board you would see that many such threads being closed due to inability of being objective. It says much about our respective maturity but we are learning nevertheless; it is a lifelong journey.

God bless.
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I agree with you that inter-religious dialogues has been more difficult of late. When I was in school, it was common for us to discuss religions with our classmates of different religions. But today, it has become a sensitive subject. I believe our experience very much mirrors that in the rest of the Muslim world.

Malaysian Muslims are by nature a tolerant lot as the religion was brought here by trade not conquest. Until the 80’s Muslim women do not wear veils in public and the figure-flattering outfit of the Singapore girl (Singapore Airlines) was the traditional costume of Muslim Malays. The turning point was the Iranian revolution, which led to a swing to conservative mores. Today, I know of many girls pressured to wear the veil by their mothers, who never wore it in their days.

The whole conservative swing was also hijacked by domestic political forces. That makes it difficult for the more liberal progressive wing of Muslim Malays to resist the social, political and religious pressures pushing for a more conservative Islam seeking to put right perceived past and present oppression of Muslims.

Malaysia is a multi-racial and multi-religious country. I see us as a melting pot experiment in a similar way that America is except that our solution is different. In America, all cultures are subsumed into an American identity with the hyphens becoming adjectives if not incidental but contributing to the American identity. In Malaysia, all constituent cultures remain distinct. It has its appeal but the body of common values making up the national consensus is rather much smaller than in the US.

Still, a consensus is growing among the more educated non-establishment Muslim middle-class that the idea of Muslim victimhood and the need to protect Islam is inappropriate in a modern mulit-religious society. After the government lost a recent court case permitting Christians to use the term “Allah” in our worship, there was a few isolated amatuerish attempts at firebombing churches, which did no significant damage. Muslims were united in condemning them and the government moved quickly to clamp down on them. I am proud to say that Christians leaders came out to forgive the firebombers in Christian terms.

While the situation the world over is bleak today regarding political Islam, I believe that Christians responding in Jesus’ language of mercy will draw an appropriate response from the more orthodox mainstream Muslim who worship Allah, all-merciful all compassionate. We need to give them support in their struggles againsts those who have hijacked, usurped and abused their religion. Condemning all Muslims as if they all share a single monolithic interpretation of Islamic identity perpetuated by a minority, can only lead to a reaction as blind as the condemnations that provoked it.
 
jimkhong said:
I agree with you that inter-religious dialogues has been more difficult of late. When I was in school, it was common for us to discuss religions with our classmates of different religions. But today, it has become a sensitive subject. I believe our experience very much mirrors that in the rest of the Muslim world.

Malaysian Muslims are by nature a tolerant lot as the religion was brought here by trade not conquest. Until the 80’s Muslim women do not wear veils in public and the figure-flattering outfit of the Singapore girl (Singapore Airlines) was the traditional costume of Muslim Malays. The turning point was the Iranian revolution, which led to a swing to conservative mores. Today, I know of many girls pressured to wear the veil by their mothers, who never wore it in their days.

The whole conservative swing was also hijacked by domestic political forces. That makes it difficult for the more liberal progressive wing of Muslim Malays to resist the social, political and religious pressures pushing for a more conservative Islam seeking to put right perceived past and present oppression of Muslims.

Malaysia is a multi-racial and multi-religious country. I see us as a melting pot experiment in a similar way that America is except that our solution is different. In America, all cultures are subsumed into an American identity with the hyphens becoming adjectives if not incidental but contributing to the American identity. In Malaysia, all constituent cultures remain distinct. It has its appeal but the body of common values making up the national consensus is rather much smaller than in the US.

Still, a consensus is growing among the more educated non-establishment Muslim middle-class that the idea of Muslim victimhood and the need to protect Islam is inappropriate in a modern mulit-religious society. After the government lost a recent court case permitting Christians to use the term “Allah” in our worship, there was a few isolated amatuerish attempts at firebombing churches, which did no significant damage. Muslims were united in condemning them and the government moved quickly to clamp down on them. I am proud to say that Christians leaders came out to forgive the firebombers in Christian terms.

While the situation the world over is bleak today regarding political Islam, I believe that Christians responding in Jesus’ language of mercy will draw an appropriate response from the more orthodox mainstream Muslim who worship Allah, all-merciful all compassionate. We need to give them support in their struggles againsts those who have hijacked, usurped and abused their religion. Condemning all Muslims as if they all share a single monolithic interpretation of Islamic identity perpetuated by a minority, can only lead to a reaction as blind as the condemnations that provoked it.
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Well said.
 
HOOOOOOOO sweet mercy, this thread blew up like a Michael Bay movie set! I’m going to have to take a vacation just to read all of it!
 
jimkhong said:
St Bartholomew’s Day massacre
Spanish Inquisition (at least some of the more unsavoury aspects of it)
Jewish pogroms
Bloody Mary
St Thomas More & John Fisher

(only the cases where Bible/Church is given as the reason, not purely nationalistic reasons. More if you need them)
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Can you give me what passages they were quoting and the interpretations the Church was giving for their actions please?

Also, I’m curious why this doesn’t happen anymore?
 
dronald said:
Can you give me what passages they were quoting and the interpretations the Church was giving for their actions please?

Also, I’m curious why this doesn’t happen anymore?
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These stories here are quite wellknown about how people persecute those who disagree with them theologically. If you are genuinely interested to know further, you can research on them. Will be happy to help you with the parts you may not understand but only if you are interested in finding out more.

I’m sure though that you are asking just to have an argument to win.:D. The difference between those who persecute others for having a different theological opinion and those who argument just to prove themselves right is only one of degree.

Happy learning!
 
jimkhong said:
These stories here are quite wellknown about how people persecute those who disagree with them theologically. If you are genuinely interested to know further, you can research on them. Will be happy to help you with the parts you may not understand but only if you are interested in finding out more.

I’m sure though that you are asking just to have an argument to win.:D. The difference between those who persecute others for having a different theological opinion and those who argument just to prove themselves right is only one of degree.

Happy learning!
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I am genuinely interested and I’ve brought this up to Catholics who say the exact same thing. I then went ahead and searched all over the Internet and found nothing. So it would be helpful to me as a Protestant if you could supply such information since I can’t find any 😉
I’m very suspicious that any letter or any of Jesus’s words have been quoted while killing others but I would really like some evidence against my claim.
Thanks.
 
dronald said:
I am genuinely interested and I’ve brought this up to Catholics who say the exact same thing. I then went ahead and searched all over the Internet and found nothing. So it would be helpful to me as a Protestant if you could supply such information since I can’t find any 😉
I’m very suspicious that any letter or any of Jesus’s words have been quoted while killing others but I would really like some evidence against my claim.
Thanks.
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Amazed that you managed to research so thoroughly in such quick time. 😃 You can start with Google and Wikipedia, and work your way through the references.

St Bartholomew’s Day Massacre is the massacre of French Hugenots by Catholics in 1572.
Spanish Inquisition led to the death of many supposed heretics, some of which the Catholic Church under JP2 has acknowledged were mistakes
Many Jewish people were killed because they were Christ-killers
Queen Mary killed a number of Protestants in her attempt to reinstate Catholicism in England
Thomas More and John Fisher were martyred for their oppostiion to Henry VIII’s break from Rome.

If you are looking for the exact Biblical passages quoted, you may not find them so easily, if ever at all. For that you would need to read through transcripts that historians would have. There would of course be rather naive non-historians (the Dan Brown type) who thinks that because the Biblical quotations are not readily available, Biblical quotations were definitely not used. I don’t think you would be one of them in view of your desire to find out. The research would probably keep you busy for some time.
 
jimkhong said:
Amazed that you managed to research so thoroughly in such quick time. 😃 You can start with Google and Wikipedia, and work your way through the references.

St Bartholomew’s Day Massacre is the massacre of French Hugenots by Catholics in 1572.
Spanish Inquisition led to the death of many supposed heretics, some of which the Catholic Church under JP2 has acknowledged were mistakes
Many Jewish people were killed because they were Christ-killers
Queen Mary killed a number of Protestants in her attempt to reinstate Catholicism in England
Thomas More and John Fisher were martyred for their oppostiion to Henry VIII’s break from Rome.

If you are looking for the exact Biblical passages quoted, you may not find them so easily, if ever at all. For that you would need to read through transcripts that historians would have. There would of course be rather naive non-historians (the Dan Brown type) who thinks that because the Biblical quotations are not readily available, Biblical quotations were definitely not used. I don’t think you would be one of them in view of your desire to find out. The research would probably keep you busy for some time.
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I told you that I have researched prior to our discussion. And there are hundreds of millions of Protestants and yet they can’t find any Church leaders quoting the Bible and killing others as a result.

Also, why don’t we just go to more modern cases then? If Islam is obviously as peaceful as Christianity and Muslims quote Surah 9 as justification for their horrendous acts, then surely we can find some Christians doing the same thing?
 
dronald said:
I told you that I have researched prior to our discussion. And there are hundreds of millions of Protestants and yet they can’t find any Church leaders quoting the Bible and killing others as a result.

Also, why don’t we just go to more modern cases then? If Islam is obviously as peaceful as Christianity and Muslims quote Surah 9 as justification for their horrendous acts, then surely we can find some Christians doing the same thing?
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Wow this is such a short argument - I think you have won!!
 
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