Understanding islam?

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reslight said:
I have read this several times and I still not sure what point is trying to be made concerning Charles Taze Russell; is the thought that Russell presented what he believed the “absolute” truth?

At any rate, Russell, unlike Joseph Smith and Mohammed, did not claim to be prophet; indeed, he plainly stated several times that he was not a prophet, but rather he considered himself to be a student of Bible prophecy. He believed that there has been no prophet* since Jesus, and that only Jesus is the prophet through whom God is speaking in this age. – Hebrews 1:1,2.
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What the preacher was saying is Islam came along and declared previous revelations as wrong or no longer valid and that its teachings were the last and correct revelations worthy of belief. Joseph Smith reported that the revelations to him conveyed on golden plates by the angel Moroni were the ultimate revelations worthy of belief and previous divine messages were corrupt or invalid. Charles Taze Russell insisted his belief system was the absolute and final revelation of divine truth.

It’s like, in order to justify the teaching advocated by Islam,Mormonism, the Watchtower, etc., the proponents must arbitrarily declare previous revelations as wrong, invalid, corrupt ad nauseam. There is nothing from preventing another founder coming up and saying he/she received some divine message or, as in Russell’s case coming to a conclusion based on intense study of the Bible, announcing another final and true revelation or set of doctrines which trounce existing beliefs.
 
Jaberwocky said:
You can point out to him that his Prophet Mohammad claims something contrary to what the writers within living memory of the life of Jesus claimed Jesus to have said and done. We would therefore have no reason to trust his narrative of Jesus 600 years later.
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My friend, the Gospel narrative given which describes Jesus of Nazareth being born in Bethlehem is similarly painfully difficult to trust. Yes, He was the promised Messiah, but to offer, as history, His birth to be in Bethlehem so He can literally fulfill the Davidic prophecies is far fetched to the most lenient of scholars…

The Bible is not all about history, and neither is the Quran.

Sometimes God asks His servants to look beyond history and discern the spiritual value 🙂
 
Servant19 said:
My friend, the Gospel narrative given which describes Jesus of Nazareth being born in Bethlehem is similarly painfully difficult to trust. Yes, He was the promised Messiah, but to offer, as history, His birth to be in Bethlehem so He can literally fulfill the Davidic prophecies is far fetched to the most lenient of scholars…

The Bible is not all about history, and neither is the Quran.

Sometimes God asks His servants to look beyond history and discern the spiritual value 🙂
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:rolleyes: :yawn:

MJ
 
Servant19 said:
My friend, the Gospel narrative given which describes Jesus of Nazareth being born in Bethlehem is similarly painfully difficult to trust. Yes, He was the promised Messiah, but to offer, as history, His birth to be in Bethlehem so He can literally fulfill the Davidic prophecies is far fetched to the most lenient of scholars…

The Bible is not all about history, and neither is the Quran.

***Sometimes God asks His servants to look beyond history and discern the spiritual value ***🙂
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Can you tell me how you came to know the bolded, underlined and italicized part above in your reply? Because that itself is a very bold religious claim to make.

On the matter of gospels, I think you failed to realize that I was not advocating that we judge Mohammed by the content of his teaching. I was advocating that we judge him to be legitimate first before even think of reading his teaching.

That is what reasonable people do. No one spends (or should spend) years learning a suppossed Mathematics textbook that had been written by someone with no idea on the subject. Similarly, it should be the intuitive position of any person to first verify the credibility of the author that claims knowledge of things of the beyond.
 
Jaberwocky said:
Can you tell me how you came to know the bolded, underlined and italicized part above in your reply? Because that itself is a very bold religious claim to make.
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There’s plenty of scholarly research to indicate as such 🙂
Its by no means a bold statement.
I’m increasingly convinced that some parts of the New and Old Testaments were not historical fact at all. There is a deeper spiritual meaning. Surely this shouldn’t come as a shock to you?
Jaberwocky said:
On the matter of gospels, I think you failed to realize that I was not advocating that we judge Mohammed by the content of his teaching. I was advocating that we judge him to be legitimate first before even think of reading his teaching.

That is what reasonable people do. No one spends (or should spend) years learning a suppossed Mathematics textbook that had been written by someone with no idea on the subject. Similarly, it should be the intuitive position of any person to first verify the credibility of the author that claims knowledge of things of the beyond.
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Actually, I would propose you utilize the Catholic and/and concept here, rather than the and/or …

It is important to look at the Personage of Muhammad AND the teachings He revaeled, just like it is with all Prophets. Which begs the question of if the ACTIONS of the Revealer of God’s Word is very important, where does that place the Catholic Church?

It is the representative of God on earth, so why should “it’s” actions not be put to scrutiny?

Justice demands equal testability to all for their claims. You want to judge Muhammad (who I believe did NOTHING wrong btw, even though my cousin was killed by Muslim authorities in Iran), then we should apply that same judgement on the Church.

I guess in your example, I would struggle to listen to a Mathematics teacher who may write a good book about Maths, but can’t work out the amount of water contained in a 10cm cubed container.
 
Servant19 said:
😃

Come on brother, whats the point in faith if there isn’t a point of thought and reflection here and there 😉
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We are presently in our 2000th year of reflection, discerning and prayer. Our Faith is solid as a rock since then.

There is NO compromise who Jesus was or where he was born or what he has done for us. We have defeated death thanks to the Grace of God and we are longing for everlasting life. But we have to continue to work on it, as it will come like a thief in the night. Hopefully and I prayer fervently every day that the good Lord will find me worthy to share in his Glory, with the Father in the Kingdom of Heaven.

MJ
 
Servant19 said:
There’s plenty of scholarly research to indicate as such 🙂
Its by no means a bold statement.
I’m increasingly convinced that some parts of the New and Old Testaments were not historical fact at all. There is a deeper spiritual meaning. Surely this shouldn’t come as a shock to you?
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No. Do you know why? Because Christian assent is not to the Bible first but to the person of Christ. The Bible comes at Christ->(Apostles->Apostolic Successors-> Church-)>Bible.

So for a Christian, the matter is settled at the moment they decide to assent to Christ.

Your mistake is that you have been taught by someone that we judge religions by their actual teachings. Since religion is not an empirical Science, we cannot do so. The rejection happens with respect to the credibility of the claimant/proclaimers of the religion.

FYI: You may want to get some more info on the issue of gospels and what we can infer from them to be historical. But that is outside the scope of this thread and is irrelevant to anything that has been said.
Servant19 said:
Actually, I would propose you utilize the Catholic and/and concept here, rather than the and/or …

It is important to look at the Personage of Muhammad AND the teachings He revaeled, just like it is with all Prophets. Which begs the question of if the ACTIONS of the Revealer of God’s Word is very important, where does that place the Catholic Church?

It is the representative of God on earth, so why should “it’s” actions not be put to scrutiny?

Justice demands equal testability to all for their claims. You want to judge Muhammad (who I believe did NOTHING wrong btw, even though my cousin was killed by Muslim authorities in Iran), then we should apply that same judgement on the Church.

I guess in your example, I would struggle to listen to a Mathematics teacher who may write a good book about Maths, but can’t work out the amount of water contained in a 10cm cubed container.
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You are confusing yourself here. To judge Muhammad is not dependent on the behavior of Imams. Muhammad’s credibility depends solely on what Muhammad did. Not what the Imams do.

So to judge the validity of the Catholic Church by the behavior of its priests is pointless. You either assent or reject the Catholic Church the moment you decide to assent or reject Christ.
 
Jaberwocky said:
No. Do you know why? Because Christian assent is not to the Bible first but to the person of Christ. The Bible comes at Christ->(Apostles->Apostolic Successors-> Church-)>Bible.

So for a Christian, the matter is settled at the moment they decide to assent to Christ.

Your mistake is that you have been taught by someone that we judge religions by their actual teachings. Since religion is not an empirical Science, we cannot do so. The rejection happens with respect to the credibility of the claimant/proclaimers of the religion.

You are confusing yourself here. To judge Muhammad is not dependent on the behavior of Imams. Muhammad’s credibility depends solely on what Muhammad did. Not what the Imams do.

So to judge the validity of the Catholic Church by the behavior of its priests is pointless. You either assent or reject the Catholic Church the moment you decide to assent or reject Christ.
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So I ask you, on what basis do you know anything about Christ by which you want to assent to Him?
 
In regards to your comment about Muhammad and the Imams, I would say that if the words and teachings of the Imams is deemed totally equal in station to Muhammad’s Words, then I expect them to show forth the same attributes and qualities as Muhammad Himself.
 
Servant19 said:
So I ask you, on what basis do you know anything about Christ by which you want to assent to Him?
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Everything ranging from what can be inferred in the historical sense from the gospels regarding the resurrection to the testimony of Church fathers (who lived inside of living memory of the event) and extra biblical sources that speak of the history at that time.

The point here is not why I should be Christian. The point here is whether or not you can see that this is the reasonable way to determine whether to reject or accept a religion. Without answering that, you seem to want to discuss Christianity.
 
Based on personal experience with a variety of Muslims from the Middle East and beyond, I would suggest the following:
  1. Every Muslim revers the Koran, but very few have read it.
  2. Those who read it in Arabic have difficulties actually understanding what it says. They always talk about the beauty, but not too much about the content.
  3. Non-Arabs have access to the Koran in other languages, but understand even less.
  4. Muslim information of Islam comes from the Imams.
    5, Friday prayers are conducted by volunteers who take it upon themselves to “preach” what they understand.
  5. Many (maybe most) are actually illiterate. They get their knowledge of Islam from others like them. I know that this sounds absurd, but find an honest Muslim and he will confirm this.
  6. Muslim’s knowledge of Christianity comes from the Imams who preach hatred against Christians and Jews every Friday. I know that many of you will protest that this is an exaggeration. Maybe in some mosques in the US this is not so, but visit any country in the Middle East and listen. Every mosque has a loudspeaker and the message is blasted well beyond its walls. I lived in a place where I could hear the loudspeakers from four different mosques, blaring their messages all at the same time.
So, learning more about Islam to discuss it with a Muslim who most likely falls under most of the above 7 generalizations, (yes, they are generalizations, and I am sure that there are noble exceptions, etc. etc. etc.) seems a bit futile.
If you would like to do a small test, ask your friend if he knows what a Catholic is. The answer will be most amusing.
 
Ontheway said:
Based on personal experience with a variety of Muslims from the Middle East and beyond, I would suggest the following:
  1. Every Muslim revers the Koran, but very few have read it.
  2. Those who read it in Arabic have difficulties actually understanding what it says. They always talk about the beauty, but not too much about the content.
  3. Non-Arabs have access to the Koran in other languages, but understand even less.
  4. Muslim information of Islam comes from the Imams.
    5, Friday prayers are conducted by volunteers who take it upon themselves to “preach” what they understand.
  5. Many (maybe most) are actually illiterate. They get their knowledge of Islam from others like them. I know that this sounds absurd, but find an honest Muslim and he will confirm this.
  6. Muslim’s knowledge of Christianity comes from the Imams who preach hatred against Christians and Jews every Friday. I know that many of you will protest that this is an exaggeration. Maybe in some mosques in the US this is not so, but visit any country in the Middle East and listen. Every mosque has a loudspeaker and the message is blasted well beyond its walls. I lived in a place where I could hear the loudspeakers from four different mosques, blaring their messages all at the same time.
So, learning more about Islam to discuss it with a Muslim who most likely falls under most of the above 7 generalizations, (yes, they are generalizations, and I am sure that there are noble exceptions, etc. etc. etc.) seems a bit futile.
If you would like to do a small test, ask your friend if he knows what a Catholic is. The answer will be most amusing.
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How then do you explain why a Roman Catholic priest would convert to Islam? He would know Roman Catholicism very well, having been trained in a Roman Catholic seminary?
 
Ontheway said:
  1. Muslim’s knowledge of Christianity comes from the Imams who preach hatred against Christians and Jews every Friday. I know that many of you will protest that this is an exaggeration. Maybe in some mosques in the US this is not so, but visit any country in the Middle East and listen. Every mosque has a loudspeaker and the message is blasted well beyond its walls. I lived in a place where I could hear the loudspeakers from four different mosques, blaring their messages all at the same time.
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Hatred of Christianity comes from their holy book, the Quran. The Imams are merely preaching what it teaches. It is a fact that Islam reviles Christianity, it is definitely not an exaggeration. Until today, Muslims believe that Christians worship multiple gods and commit shirk, associating humans with God, which is the highest form of sin in their belief. So it is not a misunderstanding on their part of Christianity but this teaching derives from the Quran. There are more examples that can be said of how Christianity is viewed by the Muslims/Islam, and they are definitely something not nice from Christians’ viewpoint.
 
Tomdstone said:
How then do you explain why a Roman Catholic priest would convert to Islam? He would know Roman Catholicism very well, having been trained in a Roman Catholic seminary?
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In order to convert, one has to leave the church, so the first question to ask here is why he would want to leave the orders and the church. The reasons could be many and more often than not personal rather than theological.

There is nothing in their theology to persuade a priest or anyone to convert. The whole affair is basically second hand Christianity with some paganism mixed in.

Unless of course our convert had special interests in extra-religious activities.
 
MartinJordan said:
We are presently in our 2000th year of reflection, discerning and prayer. Our Faith is solid as a rock since then.

There is NO compromise who Jesus was or where he was born or what he has done for us. We have defeated death thanks to the Grace of God and we are longing for everlasting life. But we have to continue to work on it, as it will come like a thief in the night. Hopefully and I prayer fervently every day that the good Lord will find me worthy to share in his Glory, with the Father in the Kingdom of Heaven.

MJ
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I, too, have similar hopes and prayers 🙂

God bless you MJ 🙂
 
Ontheway said:
In order to convert, one has to leave the church, so the first question to ask here is why he would want to leave the orders and the church. The reasons could be many and more often than not personal rather than theological.

There is nothing in their theology to persuade a priest or anyone to convert. The whole affair is basically second hand Christianity with some paganism mixed in.

Unless of course our convert had special interests in extra-religious activities.
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Well, here is his story: Why a Roman Catholic priest converted to Islam:
youtube.com/watch?v=FovAyMsGCro
 
Tomdstone said:
Well, here is his story: Why a Roman Catholic priest converted to Islam:
youtube.com/watch?v=FovAyMsGCro
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That was a nice video; he seemed very sincere.

My summary:
  1. He was a Priest
  2. He was tired of being lonely so he left the Priesthood (couldn’t marry)
  3. Visited Egypt and met a boy who greeted him in Cairo who inspired him
  4. Had to teach world Religions including Islam
  5. Cat Stevens at a Mosque told him he was already a Muslim for praying, believing in one God and fasting
  6. The Mosque prayers began and the former Priest recited the Shahada
 
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