Understanding Islamic Views

[jakasaki]

I’d say the opposite is true.

**I thought the Koran also had good things to say about Christians and Jews (the “People of the Book”). **

. snip.

Can you please state the sura’s & aya’s who speak "good things" about the Christians & Jews.

I would like to read them.

Thanks!

 

[cathdoki]

I’d say the opposite is true.

I thought the Koran also had good things to say about Christians and Jews (the “People of the Book”). Could it be that you’re highlighting the objectionable verses in order to validate your preconceived notions of this religion?

Also, I noticed that in your next post you criticize Muslims for being unable to understand reciprocity yet here you boast about how you don’t capitalize the names of their religion and founder. With all due respect, maybe it’s you who doesn’t understand reciprocity?

Are you a muslim troll?

Have you read the koran? Don’t post from an uninformed view point.

 

[jakasaki]

OK… everybody CHILL out…!!!

 

[pismopal]

tqualey,

If you have read Kathleen’s posts on related threads on Islam and Muslims, you would not regard her words here as reflecting cultural bias. This is not the first thread discussing Islam and the action/inaction by ‘peaceful’ Muslims in their homelands and in the West.

One does not need to be a scholar of Islamic studies to read and understand that the teachings of Islam are antithetical to universal laws of love and respect to others in Muslim and non-Muslim lands. Case in point: is the concept of reciprocity too hard to grasp so people of the world can live in peaceful co-existence with others of a different faith? Religion and civil society go hand in hand.

We do not advocate reciprocal violence against Muslims, but we have to move towards preserving our way of life and freedoms that evolved from our Judeo-Christian roots, notwithstanding many of us who have gone secular and detached from traditional values.

Continual appeasement of Muslims is not okay because we can see how it can lead to an Islamic America, as with evident trends in Europe and state of affairs in Muslim dominated countries that were Christian lands before where native Christian minorities still live.

These ‘peaceful’ Muslims have not demonstrated that they understand the subtleties of issues. In fact, to add to what Kathleen posted, some issues are not even subtle!

I remember watching a CBS feature by Leslie Stahl and Maajid Nawaz, a British former extremist, where they engaged in discussion educated Muslims in Pakistan who believe the outrageous narrative of Islamic ideology. The narrative being that the U.S. thru the CIA ordered Osama bin Ladin to bomb the twin towers so it would have a pretext to destroy Muslims (which they believe to be America’s goal) in Afghanistan and Iraq. Like there are no Muslims in America who could be attacked easier, right in our country, if this were true. And we had to bomb the towers and the Pentagon ourselves. How do college-educated Muslims reach or buy such a conclusion?

On every thread on Islam where we invite Muslims to express their views in this forum, the question begs to be asked, with due respect: do good Muslims of this world lack independent thought? Where is the discernment and self-examination? If such faculties are there, where is the courage, the willingness to exercise them in the interest of peace and goodwill? 1400 years have passed – when will Muslim men give equal rights to its generations of long suffering women? When will Muslim women make a stand, like their sisters in the Canadian province of Ontario who unified and rejected sharia law?

Have you seen the movie (s) " Invasion of the Body Snatchers"? Both version are good enough to make my point…so watch both if you can. I will say no more about the referral…you will understand my recommendation after viewing or remembering the plot if you have seen it.

 

[MartinJordan]

As for me (as if anyone would care) Muslims that I know of are very good people;one of my best friends is one infact my father’s (a Catholic since birth) best friend is also a Muslim. That said, when it comes to talking about Catholicism (or Christianity if you will), my friend tells me “as long as one is not trying to convert us, it’s ok to talk about the Catholic faith”.

Take want you want from this.

MJ

 

[pismopal]

As for me (as if anyone would care) Muslims that I know of are very good people;one of my best friends is one infact my father’s (a Catholic since birth) best friend is also a Muslim. That said, when it comes to talking about Catholicism (or Christianity if you will), my friend tells me “as long as one is not trying to convert us, it’s ok to talk about the Catholic faith”.

Take want you want from this.

MJ

Your muslim friends are not in an islamic country so their tolerance is understandable and very advisable since they are a minority. You would, I am confident, not be so comfortable discussing your religion in an islamic country. In fact, you would find it very uncomfortable without discussing religion. I don’t have any “best friends” who are muslim but I have had extensive contact with quite a few…just to set the table.

 

[MartinJordan]

Your muslim friends are not in an islamic country so their tolerance is understandable and very advisable since they are a minority. You would, I am confident, not be so comfortable discussing your religion in an islamic country. In fact, you would find it very uncomfortable without discussing religion. I don’t have any “best friends” who are muslim but I have had extensive contact with quite a few…just to set the table.

Noted. But this friend of my father actually saved my family’s life where we left our country of birth (pre dominantly Buddhist) and he helped us move to Indonesia for refuge. We are eternally grateful for his kind heart and guidance. My time in Indonesia (6 years '73 to '79) was nothing but safe and secure and there was NEVER a moment of fear or anguish while our time in Indonesia;and were TOTALLY free to practice our Faith.

Don’t really understand what has gone wrong now.

MJ

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

I thought the Koran also had good things to say about Christians and Jews (the “People of the Book”). **Could it be that you’re highlighting the objectionable verses **in order to validate your preconceived notions of this religion?

So you agree there are objectionable verses, eh?

Muhammed had alliance with Jewish merchants and then killed 600 of them, moral of the story: tolerance then no tolerance. From what I read, first he was OK with Jews and Christians, then hostile. It was writen in about 23 year span, and what was writen about the Jews and Christians changed with his attitude towards them.

 

[Cinette]

Cinette , **my blame wasn’t for you **
i have no proplem to dsicuss what you think to be the truth
may be we will differ about what is the truth , but i will understand your view and keep the dsicussion with you as long as you lead the discussion in respectful manner

you can read 4 different translation for chapter#1 in quran , to trust me when i say that nor christians nor jews are mentioned in this surah
searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=1&from_verse=1&to_verse=7&mac=&translation_setting=1&show_transliteration=1&show_yusufali=1&show_shakir=1&show_pickthal=1&show_mkhan=1

*I agree with you, Surah 1 does not mention either Jews or Christians; but the relevant Hadith does and you know that an Hadith is the word of the Messenger and I have been told by a Muslim that it carries the same weight as the Quran. Below I am quoting:

Adi bin Hatim asked Allah’s Messenger about the statement of Allah 1. (not the way of those who earned Your Anger), he replied “They are the Jews”. And 2 (nor those who went astray), he replied: “The Christians, and they are the ones who went astray”.
[This Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud]

The preceding comment appears as a note to Ayat 7. The translation of the Quran is by Dr. Muhammad Taqui-ud-Din Al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Mushin Khan.

I have another copy of the Quran which has an explanatory note that does not contain any mention either of Jews or Christians. I think this translation, by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, is for Western consumption, however, the translation by the Drs merits consideration because they provide appropriate references.

I hope you will provide an answer this time.

Cinette
*

 

[elwill]

Can you please state the sura’s & aya’s who speak "good things" about the Christians & Jews.

I would like to read them.

Thanks!

3-199 And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They do not sell the Verses of Allah for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, Allah is Swift in account.

in another verse
4-123 It will not be in accordance with your desires (Muslims), nor those of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), whosoever works evil, will have the recompense thereof, and he will not find any protector or helper besides Allah.
4-124 And whoever does righteous good deeds, male or female, and is a (true) believer , such will enter Paradise and not the least injustice, even to the size of a speck on the back of a date-stone, will be done to them.
4-124 And who can be better in religion than one who submits his face to Allah and he is a Muhsin (a good-doer ). And follows the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham) Hanifa . And Allah did take Ibrahim (Abraham) as a Khalil (an intimate friend)!

in another chapter
3-112 Abasement is made to cleave to them wherever they are found, except under a covenant with Allah and a covenant with men, and they have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits.
3-113 They are not all alike; of the followers of the Book there is an upright party; they recite Allah’s communications in the nighttime and they adore (Him).
3-114 They believe in Allah and the last day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and they strive with one another in hastening to good deeds, and those are among the good.

5-82 Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

 

[Kitsune633]

So why do Christians in the Middle East get persecutted ElWill?

 

[Cinette]

Hi, KathleenGee,

I just joined, and have tried to catch up on some of the posts…and read yours…

I found this post of yours, particularly demeaning and seeming to embrace a cultural bias that defies the subtle reasoning you claim to praise. This is not the real world.

Muslims basically not only preserved Western Civilization during the Dark Ages, but made tremendous advances in art, literature, philosophy, math and chemistry at a time when most of Europe was quite content to be beating each other’s citizens over the head with some type of lethal object.

No communication can possibly flourish if we approach others with the idea that they are somehow intellectually inferior and devoid of the subtle reasoning power all humans possess. Muslims differ from Christians in their basic belief - but, this is no reason to be both factually wrong and insulting to an entire group of people.

God bless

*What I was referring to was “patterns of thought”. When I visited Alhambra, near Malaga in Spain we were shown a Hall where the dancing girls performed for male nobility. The musicians were precluded from observing such tasty dishes as they had all been blinded!! In Western Europe whatever Europeans might have done it would be difficult to conceive of this type of behaviour.

When it comes to communication in science, Arabic was very much like Greek had been before, and Latin later became. Non-Islamic mathematicians would write in Arabic, however, there is no denying that they made valuable contributions and any mathematician had to learn Arabic.We must note that the occupied territories also made valuable contributions. With regard to art we have the Islamic contribution to architecture which benefited from the influences of the occupied territories.

However, their contribution to European civilization was minimal. There, it is the Catholic Church that kept the fires burning serving as the repository of Knowledge with Ireland playing an important role from the fifth to the eleventh centuries. (At that time, Ireland provided the best and biggest universities of the time.)

Patterns of thought are largely cultural. It is not that some are civilized and others not, what rings a bell in one culture does not ring in another.

Cinette *

 

[elwill]

*I agree with you, Surah 1 does not mention either Jews or Christians; but the relevant Hadith does and you know that an Hadith is the word of the Messenger and I have been told by a Muslim that it carries the same weight as the Quran. Below I am quoting:

Adi bin Hatim asked Allah’s Messenger about the statement of Allah 1. (not the way of those who earned Your Anger), he replied “They are the Jews”. And 2 (nor those who went astray), he replied: “The Christians, and they are the ones who went astray”.
[This Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud]

The preceding comment appears as a note to Ayat 7. The translation of the Quran is by Dr. Muhammad Taqui-ud-Din Al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Mushin Khan.

I have another copy of the Quran which has an explanatory note that does not contain any mention either of Jews or Christians. I think this translation, by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, is for Western consumption, however, the translation by the Drs merits consideration because they provide appropriate references.

I hope you will provide an answer this time.

Cinette
*

go to the page #8 of this thread , post # 106

you will find my answer which i will quote to u below

yet , i said nothing wrong . i said that surah didn’t specify them , it was the interpretation or understanding view from some muslims .

i have no problems to argue the interpratation of some people for this verse , but i was emphesize that jews and christians not mentioned in these verses

my view
from specific scope i completely agree with this interpretation , as for if we are talking through scope of monotheism relegions then i can refere to christians as those who astrayed from the truth , while jews angered God because of thier disobeying to him

but with general scope , the verse refer to anyone disobeyed God intentionaly which make him anger including muslims themself and it refer to anyone who astrayed from the real teaching without intention including muslims (different sects or practices)

the verse involves whoever go astray and whoever cause anger of God in any relegion and in any sect and in any time

 

[Sam_777]

She was covered in a bag because God wants her to be.

well, that what she believes is true, we should be thankful for her for being devoted and following what she thinks are God instructions EVEN in the hot weather.

If you think that she will not be rewarded for that then read this:

CCC# 841:
"The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

 

[Holly3278]

According to the below verse the Bible was originally sent down by God himself. How was it then corrupted by the original writers such as St Paul? That would mean the original Bible itself was corrupt and hence leads to my confusion as to how it was originally from God…

“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).” Surah 3:3

Basically I guess what I’m asking is if God is the original author of the Bible through the instrumentality of the writers. How could the instruments (writers) be deceitful at the same time?

God bless,

I think, perhaps, that when Muslims refer to the Bible, they are referring only to the Old Testament and the Gospels. For some reason, Muslims don’t seem to like Saint Paul or his successors very well.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Muslims do believe that those who practice their religion faithfully will go to heaven.

But polytheists will not and burn in hellfire. That includes Trinitarians.

 

[cathdoki]

well, that what she believes is true, we should be thankful for her for being devoted and following what she thinks are God instructions EVEN in the hot weather.

If you think that she will not be rewarded for that then read this:

CCC# 841:
"The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

The plan of salvation includes all people, but only those who do not reject Christ will attain salvation.

 

[Sam_777]

I agree with you .

 

[tomarin]

So you agree there are objectionable verses, eh?

Of course. In addition to whatever the earlier poster was referring to, there’s a verse that says it’s okay for a man to beat his wife if she disobeys him. That’s an obvious one that comes to mind, but I’m sure there are many more.

I’m not trying to whitewash the Koran – I’m just disagreeing with the view that everything that the Koran says about non-Muslims is unadulterated hatred, which nearly everyone in this thread takes as the Gospel truth because it fits their preconceived notions of what Muslims are about. The Koran’s message about non-Muslims is nuanced, ambiguous and even self-contradictory, in my opinion, because on the one hand it wants to establish some kinship with the grand religious traditions that preceded it; but it’s also heavily invested in promoting God’s one-ness.

I also think some of the most violent-sounding verses are about the Pagan Arabian tribes that the early Muslim community clashed with, but that many of the people here making anti-Muslim arguments just assume that those verses refer to non-Muslims as a whole. It’s factually wrong to ignore or blur the distinction between polytheist Arabians and the “People of the Book” which historically and traditionally have an elevated status in Islamic belief and practice because they are self-described monotheists (even though it appears some contemporary extremist Muslim fundamentalist groups do this themselves) .

 

[tomarin]

Are you a muslim troll?

No. Just trying to be fair.

Have you read the koran? Don’t post from an uninformed view point.

I’ve read parts of it, but not all of it and not from beginning to end. I’ve read books about it as well. Aren’t you assuming that anyone who disagrees with you is “uninformed”? How did you come by your omniscience?