Understanding Islamic Views

[jakasaki]

Quote: Cinette

The Suffering Church and it is all about the suffocating Christians in Egypt.

I scanned youtube and did not find this video.

I did find many “suffering Church” videos, but none are from Egypt.

I did however find 164 videos about “Christians in Egypt”

So, if Elwill wants to see them, they are avaialble on youtube.

Search key word “Christians in Egypt”

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Elwil,

I have been lurking for a while … and I have enjoyed reading your posts.

One of the things about news reports is that there is always the potenitial for a bias… unintentional or other-wise. I have been to Egypt once as tourist and was there for about 10 days. We saw the temples, tombs and pyramids, went down the Nile and and a wonderful visit. We also had the most thoughful guides who explained everything to us about what we were about to see and do what to be careful of (like in riding a camel! ) The reality is that we were treated with kindness and courtesy…and, this is what my wife and I remember to this day. Not part of the tour experience was when we arrived - during the second week of August 1990!

Saddam had just invaded Kuwait - and people from Kuwait were pouring into Egypt for shelter - and our guides were keeping us informed of what was going on. It was chaotic - but, the Egyptians were showing much kindness to all of their unexpected ‘visitors’. My experiences during our visit will last us a lifetime - and they are truly positive. None of this involved any aspect of religion. When we returned to the US, there was basically no reports of Egypt helping out Kuwait refugees that I found in the newspapers. I mention this because, not that taking care of refugees is not important, rather the war and what was following just demanded all of the attention of those who write and give space (either in paper or on the air) to which stories will be seen.

Personal experiences are the ones we hold most dear - but, they are not free from distortion and just simply being limited in size and scope. When people talk about the US, they usually do not mean the 50 different States and differences in weather or crops or mineral production - it is usually about the US Government - and, there are always differences of view on what is going on in Washington. Ultimately, if we want to have a less biased view, we have to see several sources and expand our sample of the news. While all have a bias, the thought would be that with multime (competing) groups - these slants on the news will balance out. No guarantee here …but, just a thought.

I can not speak for any other group or country, but we have seen several current news stories of Christians being persecuted in Moslem countries. There seems to be convincing evidence of Catholic and Protestants having a very difficult time for their beliefs. Some of these accounts - but, very few - have involved Egypt - the majority involving your neighbors to the north-east.

In my opinion, all that each of us can do as human beings is to show respect for life God has given to each of us. Showing compassion and understanding is a good way to start. From my experience, the Egyptian people as a group are making a positive contribution to this end. Maintaining such a course has not been easy - especially in an area where those with violent views can match their hatred with weapons.

God bless your efforts to continue to live in harmony with others as you and they respect each other’s God given rights.

you have to realize something very important ,Cinette
i was born in egypt , my age now is 26 years
i have many christians friends , neighbourhood and teachers , and i allready know the situation in general , regardless you believe me or not i said many times that we lives in harmony and peace

so if you PM your DVD and i saw it in private will not change my view
Cinette , i dont need someone like you who never visited egypt to inform me how christians lives here , and personally i don’t need 25 minutes of movie to realize : wow how can is that happens in my country while no one feels it , how christians lives in egypt for more than 1000 years with muslims if they are killed by muslims like this movie says !
why my relations with christians is very good , may be christians themsels don’t know that muslims kills them for thier beliefs !

so that , i want you to upload this decumentry which you talking about for many reasons , first of them i didn’t hear about it , and i want to know what are you talking about
secondly , i want from everyone on this forum to see it and discuss it’s reliability

what is the problem from uploading it Cinette ?

 

[tomarin]

we have seen several current news stories of Christians being persecuted in Moslem countries. There seems to be convincing evidence of Catholic and Protestants having a very difficult time for their beliefs. Some of these accounts - but, very few - have involved Egypt - the majority involving your neighbors to the north-east.

It’s a matter of public record that the Copts in Egypt are essentially second-class citizens. Although the constitution of Egypt gurantees religious freedom, there are certain things that Copts are officially forbidden from doing, such as serving in high ranking positions in the military, for example. It also frequently occurs that Copts and Muslims in villages off the beaten path get into violent conflicts which are difficult to sort out for outsiders, and the Copts claim that the police do not protect them from angry mobs and vigilantism. My impression is that things were relatively better for them under Nasr, but since the time of Sadat the Muslim Brotherhood has found a way of undoing Egypt’s secular society and making it an unfriendlier place for non-Muslims.

I don’t know if Elwill is denying that this discrimination exists or whether he is merely saying that in his personal relations with Christians everything is harmonious, which may very well be true. There could be something going on here analogous to foreigners asking me as an individual to account for American racism past and present, as if I personally were responsible for it.

 

[Cinette]

Hi, Elwil,

I have been lurking for a while … and I have enjoyed reading your posts.

One of the things about news reports is that there is always the potenitial for a bias… unintentional or other-wise. I have been to Egypt once as tourist and was there for about 10 days. We saw the temples, tombs and pyramids, went down the Nile and and a wonderful visit. We also had the most thoughful guides who explained everything to us about what we were about to see and do what to be careful of (like in riding a camel! ) The reality is that we were treated with kindness and courtesy…and, this is what my wife and I remember to this day. Not part of the tour experience was when we arrived - during the second week of August 1990!

Saddam had just invaded Kuwait - and people from Kuwait were pouring into Egypt for shelter - and our guides were keeping us informed of what was going on. It was chaotic - but, the Egyptians were showing much kindness to all of their unexpected ‘visitors’. My experiences during our visit will last us a lifetime - and they are truly positive. None of this involved any aspect of religion. When we returned to the US, there was basically no reports of Egypt helping out Kuwait refugees that I found in the newspapers. I mention this because, not that taking care of refugees is not important, rather the war and what was following just demanded all of the attention of those who write and give space (either in paper or on the air) to which stories will be seen.

Personal experiences are the ones we hold most dear - but, they are not free from distortion and just simply being limited in size and scope. When people talk about the US, they usually do not mean the 50 different States and differences in weather or crops or mineral production - it is usually about the US Government - and, there are always differences of view on what is going on in Washington. Ultimately, if we want to have a less biased view, we have to see several sources and expand our sample of the news. While all have a bias, the thought would be that with multime (competing) groups - these slants on the news will balance out. No guarantee here …but, just a thought.

I can not speak for any other group or country, but we have seen several current news stories of Christians being persecuted in Moslem countries. There seems to be convincing evidence of Catholic and Protestants having a very difficult time for their beliefs. Some of these accounts - but, very few - have involved Egypt - the majority involving your neighbors to the north-east.

In my opinion, all that each of us can do as human beings is to show respect for life God has given to each of us. Showing compassion and understanding is a good way to start. From my experience, the Egyptian people as a group are making a positive contribution to this end. Maintaining such a course has not been easy - especially in an area where those with violent views can match their hatred with weapons.

God bless your efforts to continue to live in harmony with others as you and they respect each other’s God given rights.

Alas Tom - while you do your best to be fair minded and unbiased the reality is very different. One cannot judge a country by a visit. Have you ever discussed the persecutions with a Copt? There has to be a Coptic Church in your area. Go and ask them. I know a Copt (Egyptian) who I see often at a coffee shop near my home. He confirmed the truth of what I saw in the documentary which was part of a series called The Suffering Church. Each segment was on the persecutions of Christians in a number of countries (Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Malaysia, Indonesia, and other countries I do not immediately recall). The Series is part of the Jubilee Campaign against persecutions of Christians (www.jubileecampaign.org) and was presented by Lord David Alton of Liverpool and member of the House of Lords. My Coptic friend confirmed what I recounted to him.

You have a sense of fairness and justice and your attitude is very Christian Tom but the reality is scary and very different from what you imagine. Believe me. You should also get the book The Icon of Evil and you would do yourself a favour by reading the Qu’ran.

Blessings
Jeanne

 

[elwill]

It’s a matter of public record that the Copts in Egypt are essentially second-class citizens. Although the constitution of Egypt gurantees religious freedom, there are certain things that Copts are officially forbidden from doing, such as serving in high ranking positions in the military, for example. It also frequently occurs that Copts and Muslims in villages off the beaten path get into violent conflicts which are difficult to sort out for outsiders, and the Copts claim that the police do not protect them from angry mobs and vigilantism. My impression is that things were relatively better for them under Nasr, but since the time of Sadat the Muslim Brotherhood has found a way of undoing Egypt’s secular society and making it an unfriendlier place for non-Muslims.

I don’t know if Elwill is denying that this discrimination exists or whether he is merely saying that in his personal relations with Christians everything is harmonious, which may very well be true. There could be something going on here analogous to foreigners asking me as an individual to account for American racism past and present, as if I personally were responsible for it.

sometimes the problem raised among christians and muslims but not because this man is muslim and this one is christian , the problems can happens for anyone
it’s like if someone who is jew in your country raised a problem ( let us say financial problem ) with someone who is christian , the result of this problem is that the christian killed the jew
can you imagine how it’s look like when a newspaper in my country writes about the same event and says that jews are persecuated by christians for thier beliefs

that’s is exactly what i can see from these news , one time it was happened that one christian girls disappeared . no one yet knew what happened , no one knows where are they , did they lost or kidnapped or just runned away , no one knew yet
but those papers , make a conclusions that muslims kidnapped them and post it as a facts for the world
but when the facts appeared , and the truth is known , offcourse these sites will not correct the information
such sites have particular agenda , they show you what they want you to see

most of problems you reads are raised not because of relegion , most of are individual crimes raised becasue of earthy problems

when i represent my view . i take under my consideration the majority of christians , i take under consideration that entire or the general relation between muslims and christians in egypt i take under my consideration the treatment of government to them equally as muslims

one of the members here post this link ( in the page 13 from this thread post # 183 )
aina.org/news/20100723022355.htm

when i tried to verifiy from these news , i found out that it’s true , this lady disappeared suddenly , and the allegations and assumptions from her family side is that she were kidnapped by muslims
when explore the facts , no one really knows what happend and the government try to do thier job to find here
what is facts , untill now it’s mystery case

some of her neighbour for example said that before her disappearance she got vacation from her work for 2 weeks and draw 35000 from her money in the bank in the day before her disappearance directly and she take with her all of her Gold and jewelry

somone is biased and want to raise relegious fitnah will not inform you the entire facts , and the entire truth

---

good news
while i write this post now , and with continous researching about this case
i found this news
news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100725/wl_africa_afp/egyptreligion

thank God i found this link

i hope if you understand my view afterall

peace

 

[elwill]

Hi, Elwil,

I have been lurking for a while … and I have enjoyed reading your posts.

One of the things about news reports is that there is always the potenitial for a bias… unintentional or other-wise. I have been to Egypt once as tourist and was there for about 10 days. We saw the temples, tombs and pyramids, went down the Nile and and a wonderful visit. We also had the most thoughful guides who explained everything to us about what we were about to see and do what to be careful of (like in riding a camel! ) The reality is that we were treated with kindness and courtesy…and, this is what my wife and I remember to this day. Not part of the tour experience was when we arrived - during the second week of August 1990!

Saddam had just invaded Kuwait - and people from Kuwait were pouring into Egypt for shelter - and our guides were keeping us informed of what was going on. It was chaotic - but, the Egyptians were showing much kindness to all of their unexpected ‘visitors’. My experiences during our visit will last us a lifetime - and they are truly positive. None of this involved any aspect of religion. When we returned to the US, there was basically no reports of Egypt helping out Kuwait refugees that I found in the newspapers. I mention this because, not that taking care of refugees is not important, rather the war and what was following just demanded all of the attention of those who write and give space (either in paper or on the air) to which stories will be seen.

Personal experiences are the ones we hold most dear - but, they are not free from distortion and just simply being limited in size and scope. When people talk about the US, they usually do not mean the 50 different States and differences in weather or crops or mineral production - it is usually about the US Government - and, there are always differences of view on what is going on in Washington. Ultimately, if we want to have a less biased view, we have to see several sources and expand our sample of the news. While all have a bias, the thought would be that with multime (competing) groups - these slants on the news will balance out. No guarantee here …but, just a thought.

I can not speak for any other group or country, but we have seen several current news stories of Christians being persecuted in Moslem countries. There seems to be convincing evidence of Catholic and Protestants having a very difficult time for their beliefs. Some of these accounts - but, very few - have involved Egypt - the majority involving your neighbors to the north-east.

In my opinion, all that each of us can do as human beings is to show respect for life God has given to each of us. Showing compassion and understanding is a good way to start. From my experience, the Egyptian people as a group are making a positive contribution to this end. Maintaining such a course has not been easy - especially in an area where those with violent views can match their hatred with weapons.

God bless your efforts to continue to live in harmony with others as you and they respect each other’s God given rights.

thank you for sharing with this
i agree with you completly , and i really appreciate your participations in this thread

 

[Advance]

back with the word “shirk” in arabic , islam condemns some practices to be “shirk” but it dosn’t necessery means that these practices involved divinity of others beside allah
for example . people (muslims involved ) praying to the deads (peophets or holy and rightious individuals) instead of allah condemned by islam to be moshrkeen ( which sometimes translated to polytheism) , offcourse they don’t worship them as Gods but they shared them some attributes which according to islam are saved to God only

I think much of these scholars who call intercession thru the dead shirk say so without any evidence. The proper idea is that its irrelevant whether intercession is achieved thru a dead person or one who is alive, simply because the body is by no means a medium for intercession. In several Traditions we can read the following:

Quoted in the books Bukhari, Muslim and Sunan states:** “It has become wajib for me to intercede for the person who visits my grave.” **

Qouted by Tabarani "rahmatullahi ta’ala ‘alaih’ states: **“I will be an intercessor of the person who visits my grave.” **

These two particular ahadith say otherwise imo.

 

[cathdoki]

I think much of these scholars who call intercession thru the dead shirk say so without any evidence. The proper idea is that its irrelevant whether intercession is achieved thru a dead person or one who is alive, simply because the body is by no means a medium for intercession. In several Traditions we can read the following:

Quoted in the books Bukhari, Muslim and Sunan states:** “It has become wajib for me to intercede for the person who visits my grave.” **

Qouted by Tabarani "rahmatullahi ta’ala ‘alaih’ states: **“I will be an intercessor of the person who visits my grave.” **

These two particular ahadith say otherwise imo.

Thank you for your honesty!

 

[KathleenGee]

Elwill,

The need for clarification of who are polytheists was brought up on several different threads. They were brought up on Newsvine. That site is extremely anti-Catholic and anti-Christian in general. The Muslim there inferred that we were looked upon as polytheists. There was a thread some time ago on polytheists, and the Muslim did not clarify.

I think I know where you are coming from, and that you do not see Christians as such.

I also made comment that the Muslims do believe in God and Spirit…same do we…but we call both dimensions as persons…Christ the third person.

I am going to the place where I saw that quote and would like your Islamic views when I bring the actual quote back here.

Thanks.

 

[swariffin]

secondly , most probably either men or women will be more in the hell. It’s very difficult that they number exactly the same. Whoever will do more wrong deeds will be punished for that. It’s about deeds not gender and that’s where people take a wrong turn and are lead astray

Then why Surah 16(v16:112) expressedly stated “Majority were Women”?

thirdly , there is another Hadith which tells us that there will be more women in the Paradise then the men. It is recorded in Sahih Muslim.
which means that women are more than men in both hell and paradise either

Then the two Hadiths are conflicting each other. The question is why do you keep them both? You should chose one, and throw away the other.

Also we ought to keep in mind that women today outnumber men. Even if more males are born, their mortality rate is higher then female babies and we learn in Hadith that near the End of Times women will outnumber men greatly so if equal ratio of men and women goes to hell and the paradise even then it is quite possible that women remain in majority in both.

If more men are born and their mortality rate is higher, then more men should be the first to come to either heaven and hell. So, when Ibn 'Abbas got the vision of hell, there should be men as the majority, assuming equal ratio of men goes to heaven and hell when they die. If Ibn 'Abbas said the Majority were women, then only a small percentage of dead men went to hell, while a large percentage of men went to heaven. In other way of thinking, a large percentage of women went to hell, while the small percentage of women went to heaven.

At the end of time where more women compared to man, you assume that equal ratio of man and women goes to heaven and hell. If Ibn 'Abbas is correct that the Majority of dweller of hell is women, then it means that at the end of time, a very-very large percentage of women must go to heaven, while a very-very small percentage of women go to hell, in order to maintain the majority of women in hell. In this case, Ibn 'Abbas fortold that the Jihad fighter of Hamas should use women as a living-shields against Israeli’s weapon. So, more women died for Islam and goes to heaven, while the Jihad fighters of Hamas still alive. Isn’t that what we see today???

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Of course. In addition to whatever the earlier poster was referring to,** there’s a verse that says it’s okay for a man to beat his wife **if she disobeys him. That’s an obvious one that comes to mind, but I’m sure there are many more.

That is truely fascinating, are you saying there might be a streak of misogyny that runs through it. What I find interesting is the koran does not mention any names of the women in the Old Testaments, even though there are about 50 so people it shares in common with the Bible. What’s mention is “wife of” but the name and the personhood it represents is not there.

I’m not trying to whitewash the Koran – I’m just disagreeing with the view that everything that the Koran says about non-Muslims is unadulterated hatred, which nearly everyone in this thread takes as the Gospel truth because it fits their preconceived notions of what Muslims are about. The Koran’s message about non-Muslims is nuanced, ambiguous and even self-contradictory, in my opinion, because on the one hand it wants to establish some kinship with the grand religious traditions that preceded it;** but it’s also heavily invested in promoting God’s one-ness.**

So just like islam has tolerance then no tolerance, it agrees to only in the begining only disagree in the end. It promotes one-ness at the expense of Jesus Christ, denying Him as being true God and true Man.
other islamic “yes then no” views:
The Akedat Yitzchak
Yes, there is an Abraham who went to sacrifice his son, but No, it was not Isaac that was bound for the sacrifice.
Jesus Christ
Yes, there is a Jesus, but No there is no death of Jesus Christ on the cross, and no Ressurection, He is not both God and Man.
God (The Trinity)
Yes, there is a allah but No, there is no Person of God the Son and subsequently no Persons of the Father and Holy Spirit.

Yes there is God and there might be some people in common with the Bible, but the koran denies the Akedat Yitzchak, which has much importance for Judaism and also it denies His Cruxifition and Resurrection, how much does that mean to you? It only matters it denies them if you believe in Christianity or Judaism, if you don’t it really doesn’t matter.

If you look only to the koran only for similarities **and overlook **what it is proporting to be truth then you become complacent towards it’s errors. Maybe you are right, the view that everything that the Koran says about non-Muslims isn’t about showing unadulterated hatred for the people who practice other religions; probably, more accurately, it’s an elaborate arguement against Judeo-Christianity with a tinge of hatred for the truth.

I also think some of the most violent-sounding verses are about the Pagan Arabian tribes that the early Muslim community clashed with, but that many of the people here making anti-Muslim arguments just assume that those verses refer to non-Muslims as a whole. It’s factually wrong to ignore or blur the distinction between polytheist Arabians and the “People of the Book” which historically and traditionally have an elevated status in Islamic belief and practice because they are self-described monotheists (even though it appears some contemporary extremist Muslim fundamentalist groups do this themselves) .

But anyone who refuse to accept islam share the same fate as the pagans, even if they already are paritipating member in another religion.

*When the mahommedians came for the pagans
I remained silent;
I was not a pagan…

When they locked up the hostages,
I remained silent;
I was not a hostage.

When they came for the Protestants,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Protestants.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out. *

 

[Advance]

Hi Kathleen ,

As to the trinity, naturally, when we hear words such as ‘persons’ , ‘tri-nity’ etc. We compose a mental image of said words, in this case an ambiguity as to the nature of the Christian God and rightly so. Offcourse being a muslim I don’t accept this concept of Trinity nor do I know of any similiar characteristics in our God (the God of Adam, Abraham ,Moses, Jesus, and Muhhamed). Partly due to my belief that Jesus is not and will not be a son of God or a God himself.

Our God is One, with attributes not personalities, nor do we deem it correct to throw around words such as ‘spirit’ and ‘soul’ without knowing what a spirit or soul actually means.

 

[elwill]

I think much of these scholars who call intercession thru the dead shirk say so without any evidence. The proper idea is that its irrelevant whether intercession is achieved thru a dead person or one who is alive, simply because the body is by no means a medium for intercession. In several Traditions we can read the following:

Quoted in the books Bukhari, Muslim and Sunan states:** “It has become wajib for me to intercede for the person who visits my grave.” **

Qouted by Tabarani "rahmatullahi ta’ala ‘alaih’ states: **“I will be an of the person who visits my grave.” **

These two particular ahadith say otherwise imo.

thank you brother for your remarks , i completely agree with ahadeeth
theire is no peoblem to visit the graves

read my post again , i said theire is a problem to pray or asking the help from deads
big defference

from sunni point of view
whoever supplicates to anyone other than Allaah in things that only Allaah is able to do, has committed major Shirk . Allaah Says (which means): {And do not invoke besides Allaah that which neither benefits you nor harms you, for if you did, then indeed you would be of the wrongdoers. And if Allaah should touch you with adversity, there is no remover of it except Him; and if He intends for you good, then there is no one who can repel His Favour.}[Quran 10:106-107].

Worshipping takes different forms, and one of them is supplication, which means to ask for something that no one can ever grant except Allah. The fall of the rain, recovery of a patient, relief from misfortunes, asking for salvation from hell-fire and dwelling in paradise etc, in all this, one should ask Allah alone to grant such blessings. Whoever asks a mortal being to grant him such things is indeed worshipping this being.

“Call on those besides him whom you fancy, they have neither the power to remove your troubles from you nor to change them” (17:56)
The Quran also states: “And the places of worship are for Allah … So invoice not anyone along with Allah” (72:18).
Offering sacrifices are services which should be for Allah alone. Whoever offers a sacrifice or makes a vow of a dead pious man, for the Jinn or for anyone other than Allah, committing a shirk

Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said “call me not for help, but call Allah your lord”.

The prophet also said (if you ask for any thing ask for it from Allah alone, if you seek for help, seek it from Allah alone)
It is permissible for a person to ask for his fellow brother’s help or support if the matter for which he asks for his help is within the scope of human ability. But if such a matter is beyond the scope of human ability such person must not ask for help from anyone save Allah.

And know you not that it is Allaah to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth **and that besides Allah you have neither any Wali (protector or guardian) nor any helper?!" **(Qur’an 2:107).

 

[KathleenGee]

Very different mentality…

We are inherit more the Judeo-Christian mindset, particularly of Western thought.

It is very challenging to build bridges of understanding.

So what makes sense to you likewise does not make sense to us.

But dialogue is good…

 

[swariffin]

Happening way too often:

asianews.it/news-en/Indonesian-police-tears-down-house-church-19013.html

07/23/2010 12:01
INDONESIA
Indonesian police tears down house church
After years of peaceful coexistence with residents, Muslim organisation gets the authorities to tear down the building. Ten people are arrested. The Pentecostal Church announces legal action against local authorities.

Jakarta (AsiaNews/Agencies) – Police demolished a residential building in Bogor (West Java) that regularly hosted a house church. Police also detained, interrogated and released ten people, Compass Direct News (CDN) reported.
Last Monday, police raided a house used for worship by Narogong Pentecostal Church in the village of Limusnunggal, Cileungsi sub-district. The action was followed by clashes between agents and worshippers. The building was eventually torn down and ten people arrested.

“Local residents, including non-Christians, had accepted the presence of the church,” said local Block Captain Junaedi Syamsudin, “but a group called the Forum of the Muslim Brotherhood of Limusnunggal has worked since 2008 to have the church eliminated.”

“Three months ago members of the forum went to Cileungsi offices to object to the church’s presence,” Syamsudin added, “and the regent promised to demolish the house.”

Bogor Police Chief Eddy Hidayat said that the house “lacked a use permit”, but Pentecostal Church coordinator Hotlan P. Silaen retorted that police were not neutral in the dispute.

“The clash with citizens could have been avoided if the police had been neutral and not been goaded into a situation that caused bodily harm,” Silaen said.

Rev Rekson Sitorus announced that the Church would take “legal action” againset those responsible for demolishing the house, including the Bogor administration.

That is the problem, because the majority of the policemen themselves are muslims. The main voters for the presidency are also muslims.

 

[KathleenGee]

By the way, Advance…do you know what a shamrock is…a little green plant that has three petals…St. Patrick used it to explain the Trinity…only one plant but with 3 leaves.

 

[swariffin]

your behaviour is shame on christianity
and silence of your fellow christians who read your posts are shame on christianity

why i should hear and trust a christian who insist to convince me that love in christianity isn’t more than empty words which never exceed their lips

i know that thier are many kind and lovely members here , which make me think that i need some hosnest support

peace to you all , i will monitor the thread to see if anyone have other questions

Allright then, Elwill. Let me ask you another question. Why the muslims have to face Ka’bah while praying? Does Allah live in Ka’Bah? Please cite your Quranic verse for me to check. Assume that you are teaching me Islam 101.

 

[elwill]

Then why Surah 16(v16:112) expressedly stated “Majority were Women”?

quote the verse please

Then the two Hadiths are conflicting each other. The question is why do you keep them both? You should chose one, and throw away the other.

i don’t see confliction actually

If more men are born and their mortality rate is higher, then more men should be the first to come to either heaven and hell. So, when Ibn 'Abbas got the vision of hell, there should be men as the majority, assuming equal ratio of men goes to heaven and hell when they die. If Ibn 'Abbas said the Majority were women, then only a small percentage of dead men went to hell, while a large percentage of men went to heaven. In other way of thinking, a large percentage of women went to hell, while the small percentage of women went to heaven.

At the end of time where more women compared to man, you assume that equal ratio of man and women goes to heaven and hell. If Ibn 'Abbas is correct that the Majority of dweller of hell is women, then it means that at the end of time, a very-very large percentage of women must go to heaven, while a very-very small percentage of women go to hell, in order to maintain the majority of women in hell. In this case, Ibn 'Abbas fortold that the Jihad fighter of Hamas should use women as a living-shields against Israeli’s weapon. So, more women died for Islam and goes to heaven, while the Jihad fighters of Hamas still alive. Isn’t that what we see today???

regardless of how many women or how many men in hell
the most important point for me is that the prophet didn’t say that women will go to hell because they are women , did he ?

 

[swariffin]

Noted. But this friend of my father actually saved my family’s life where we left our country of birth (pre dominantly Buddhist) and he helped us move to Indonesia for refuge. We are eternally grateful for his kind heart and guidance. My time in Indonesia (6 years '73 to '79) was nothing but safe and secure and there was NEVER a moment of fear or anguish while our time in Indonesia;and were TOTALLY free to practice our Faith.

Don’t really understand what has gone wrong now.

MJ

During 73 to 79, Indonesia was led by Suharto who was supported by the US at that time. During his reign, Suharto was a tough leader and feared even by the majority muslims. When Soeharto tried to maintain his power while the military did not agree with him, he supported the rising of Islam to counterbalance the military. But, Soeharto miscalculated the power of Islam. Since then, muslims in Indonesia began attacking churches. Now, they allow the Buddha Bar which is the clear insult to the Buddhist. The established law which forbid desecrating religion, indeed only protect Islam. No wonder during that time you can practice your religion freely.

 

[swariffin]

quote the verse please

Surah 16 (V16:112) Narrated Ibn 'Abbas said, I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were disbelievers or ungrateful." Why do you refute me on this? You should have refuted this earlier.

i don’t see confliction actually

Your point of more women than man is near the end of time. During the time of Ibn Abbas, surely it was not the case. Let say during the time of Ibn Abbas, the number of man and woman who were born and died were equal (there cannot be woman majority since it is valid near the end of time as you say). In that case, woman cannot be the majority in both heaven and hell. Simple human logic can say so, and a 26 year old educated man should be able to understand that.

regardless of how many women or how many men in hell
the most important point for me is that the prophet didn’t say that women will go to hell because they are women, did he ?

The prophet DID say that the MAJORITY of human who are in HELL are WOMAN. So, the prophet DID foretold that WOMEN HAVE A GREATER CHANCE TO GO TO HELL. Unfortunately, the prophet also fortold that in order to remedy this, more women should go for Jihad than man near the end of time, to keep the word of the prophet right. Isn’t that why we see more and more women suicide bombers today?

The dressing code of BURQA will help them to do so, logically. No wonder, Muhammad prescribed such dress code for women.

BTW, by saying that “the prophet didn’t say that woman will go to hell because they are women”, you agree that Surah 16 (V16:112) DID say that the Majority of Hell dweller are woman. So, please do not refute again.