Understanding Islamic Views

[elwill]

Allright then, Elwill. Let me ask you another question. Why the muslims have to face Ka’bah while praying? Does Allah live in Ka’Bah? Please cite your Quranic verse for me to check. Assume that you are teaching me Islam 101.

2-144 Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like;** turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, **and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.

 

[MartinJordan]

During 73 to 79, Indonesia was led by Suharto who was supported by the US at that time. During his reign, Suharto was a tough leader and feared even by the majority muslims. When Soeharto tried to maintain his power while the military did not agree with him, he supported the rising of Islam to counterbalance the military. But, Soeharto miscalculated the power of Islam. Since then, muslims in Indonesia began attacking churches. Now, they allow the Buddha Bar which is the clear insult to the Buddhist. The established law which forbid desecrating religion, indeed only protect Islam. No wonder during that time you can practice your religion freely.

Very interesting and disappointing at the same time.

I just visited Indonesia early this year, and understood The Catholic University that is in Jakarta, was opened by Suharto, despite many Islamists complaints. Good news is that I went for Mass too at the suburbs, it was packed!

Hope the freedom holds, but from what I hear away from the bigger cities, not looking good. MJ

 

[elwill]

Surah 16 (V16:112) Narrated Ibn 'Abbas said, I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were disbelievers or ungrateful." Why do you refute me on this? You should have refuted this earlier.

this isn’t called surah nor quran . this is hadeeth

Your point of more women than man is near the end of time. During the time of Ibn Abbas, surely it was not the case. Let say during the time of Ibn Abbas, the number of man and woman who were born and died were equal (there cannot be woman majority since it is valid near the end of time as you say). In that case, woman cannot be the majority in both heaven and hell. Simple human logic can say so, and a 26 year old educated man should be able to understand that.

firstly , when prophet talking about hell and paradise he refere to the time of afterlife not in the time of Ibn abbas
secondly , my logic is that it’s possible to find women are majority in both paradise and hell in the same time
assume that hell contain 1000 person while paradise contains 100 persons
isn’t it possible to find that 70% of those in paradise are women , and in the same 70% of those in hell are women either . i find it logically possible

The prophet DID say that the MAJORITY of human who are in HELL are WOMAN. So, the prophet DID foretold that WOMEN HAVE A GREATER CHANCE TO GO TO HELL.

using your logic
the prophet did say that majority of human who in paradise are women . so the prophet did foretold that woman have a greater chance to go to paradise

whatever , i believe that the chance for any human being to enter paradise or hell depends on his deeds not in genders

Unfortunately, the prophet also fortold that in order to remedy this, more women should go for Jihad than man near the end of time, to keep the word of the prophet right. Isn’t that why we see more and more women suicide bombers today?

The dressing code of BURQA will help them to do so, logically. No wonder, Muhammad prescribed such dress code for women.

did he said that ? where ?

BTW, by saying that “the prophet didn’t say that woman will go to hell because they are women”, you agree that Surah 16 (V16:112) DID say that the Majority of Hell dweller are woman. So, please do not refute again.

with my pleasure

 

[swariffin]

2-144 Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like;** turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, **and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.

Thank you. But you have not answered the second question. Does Allah live in Ka Bah or Masjiddil Haram?

 

[swariffin]

Hi Kathleen ,

As to the trinity, naturally, when we hear words such as ‘persons’ , ‘tri-nity’ etc. We compose a mental image of said words, in this case an ambiguity as to the nature of the Christian God and rightly so. Offcourse being a muslim I don’t accept this concept of Trinity nor do I know of any similiar characteristics in our God (the God of Adam, Abraham ,Moses, Jesus, and Muhhamed). Partly due to my belief that Jesus is not and will not be a son of God or a God himself.

Our God is One, with attributes not personalities, nor do we deem it correct to throw around words such as ‘spirit’ and ‘soul’ without knowing what a spirit or soul actually means.

Surely, with respect to your Quranic teaching, everything not included is false. So, things that you don’t understand is automatically false, regardless of every arguments presented.

 

[elwill]

Thank you. But you have not answered the second question. Does Allah live in Ka Bah or Masjiddil Haram?

no

 

[swariffin]

this isn’t called surah nor quran . this is hadeeth / QUOTE]

Fine with me. Just why you do not refute this earlier
ewill;6890626:

firstly , when prophet talking about hell and paradise he refere to the time of afterlife not in the time of Ibn abbas
secondly , my logic is that it’s possible to find women are majority in both paradise and hell in the same time
assume that hell contain 1000 person while paradise contains 100 persons
isn’t it possible to find that 70% of those in paradise are women , and in the same 70% of those in hell are women either . i find it logically possible

So, at the end of time assume that all human = 1100 persons, and 770 of them are women where 700 are in hell and 70 are in heaven. That is the end of time, and I accept that. The ratio of women and men is 770 vs 330 which makes women to be the majority, I accept that too.

Based on your logic :

(1) Now in July 2010, x years away from the end of time. In this case, the ratio of women and man with respect to what you say, certainly cannot be 770 vs 330 because the end of time has not arrived yet. If you said that more boys were born and died, (plus the men died in battle), in July 2010 the Majority of hell dweller is not necessarily women. Am I correct? If so, I think there is a missing word in what Ibn Abbas has said. He should have mentioned that what he meant by “majority” means at the end of time.

(2) using my logic
the prophet did say that majority of human who in paradise are women . so the prophet did foretold that woman have a greater chance to go to paradise (your word).

So, given (1) and (2), my question are :
(a) Is it why the Hamas fighter using women as a living shield against Israeli’s weapon?
(b) Is it why there are more women suicide bombers today than in year 700AD?
Given my question (a) I find a correlation that Hamas fighters are using women as living shields, so that more women would die and enter heaven to fulfill what the prophet has foretold.
Given my question (b) I find a correlation that Muhammad order women to wear clothing like Burqa, so their mission as suicide bombers can goes well. That is also a fulfillment of what the prophet has foretold.

whatever , i believe that the chance for any human being to enter paradise or hell depends on his deeds not in genders

No problem, because I believe that too. I am glad that you share the same believe too.

 

[swariffin]

no

If Allah does not live in KaBah or Masjiddil Haram, then why did Allah order the muslims to face (when praying) a “building” where Allah is not there?

 

[Advance]

Very different mentality…

We are inherit more the Judeo-Christian mindset, particularly of Western thought.

It is very challenging to build bridges of understanding.

So what makes sense to you likewise does not make sense to us.

But dialogue is good…

Ill tell you one thing,

our similiarities are stronger than our differences and If there is no mutual understanding, theres always mutual respect.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Advance,

This sounds good … but, the reports in the newspapers here in the US about world-wide conditions where Chrsitians are actively persecuted, their churches and houses of worship destroyed and some killed for practicing their Christian beliefs, certainly cloud the issue of mutual respect.

Seriously, can you imagine Pope Benedict XVI calling for the death of Muslims who deface Christ’s image, or destroy Christian objects, or ridicule Christian belief? While it may be difficult for me to look at the leader of my religion with total objectivity - just the reports from the scular press identify him as a man of peace and kindness call all to love one another.

I know you are new on CAF and can not speak for all Muslims. The truth is, no one can… and this creates a type of chaos (at least as how I see it) so that one cleric can call for the death of people (like the cartoonists in Holland) and no one says, “No! This is wrong and immoral!” This just doesn’t happen - and this is what causes (at the very least) problems with understanding. Mutual respect is a distant goal - and not facilitated by calls for the murder of people we do not agree with.

My encouragement is with a person like Saladin in the middle of the 12th Century who showed both understanding and mutual respect for Christians. Yes, there were examples when things did not go right - and, about all I can say is that is was truly a troubled and bloody age. But, the Koran was well established - everything that was there then is there today - and tolerance was encouraged. Someone with the wisdom of Saladin is sorely needed today.

God bless

Ill tell you one thing,

our similiarities are stronger than our differences and If there is no mutual understanding, theres always mutual respect.

 

[Kitsune633]

If Allah does not live in KaBah or Masjiddil Haram, then why did Allah order the muslims to face (when praying) a “building” where Allah is not there?

When Muhammed started his religion, he told his followers to pray towards Jerusalem, but then he changed his mind and said to his followers to pray towards Mecca. Of course, Mecca back then was full of pagan idols until Muhammed came and destroyed them, but he couldn’t bring himself to destroy the Black Rock, the supreme symbolism of the Arabian earth and rock god. He couldn’t destroy this last idol because Muhammed participated in the Hajj long before Islam was founded. So in a sense, when Muslims pray towards Mecca, they don’t pray towards Allah/God, instead, they pray towards the shrine of a pagan idol.

 

[elwill]

If Allah does not live in KaBah or Masjiddil Haram, then why did Allah order the muslims to face (when praying) a “building” where Allah is not there?

swariffin , do you believe that god lives in specific place within our planet ?

 

[cathdoki]

Ill tell you one thing,

our similiarities are stronger than our differences and If there is no mutual understanding, theres always mutual respect.

I wish what you are saying is true. We are very different. In our religious beliefs and culture. But as was noted. A new Saladin is sorely needed today to stifle the likes of al-queda and other terrorist groups. Please keep in mind that it is the lack of widespread condemnation by muslims of the behavior of these terrorist groups that widens the gap between west and east. Between Christian and Muslim.

 

[cathdoki]

If Allah does not live in KaBah or Masjiddil Haram, then why did Allah order the muslims to face (when praying) a “building” where Allah is not there?

We must be very careful with that. Most Catholic Churches are built facing liturgical east. Remember that we also use statues and icons as things to focus on when praying. We don’t want to lead down a slippery slope on this one.

 

[KathleenGee]

Elwill,

I am very happy to hear that our faiths have similarities…that is true in a spiritual sense.

I am also considering your age… I lived in a very large city and was close to some very good people. It was my world. Years later after I was married, circumstances exposed me to a different type of people. These people were violent. I also worked within a home with a psychiatric social worker who had worked as well among this population. It was like entering a different world. I saw and experienced things in other people I wish I had not seen or heard, as it was ugly and fratricidal. In so many years, that segment of the population earned the reputation as being the most violent and so many of their children joined gangs. It was humiliating for them. They are working now for better values.

From this sharing, I must also stand for the Coptic Christians who are undergoing their own persecution. It is good to stay away from that. Pray for tolerance and peace and truth for anyone perpetrating persecution of others.

I hope you remain in the place and world that you live in and that later on, as conflicting world powers converge upon one another, that you will not be pulled into that.

 

[KathleenGee]

InSearchofGrace…thanks!

 

[InSearchofGrace]

…
somone is biased and want to raise relegious fitnah will not inform you the entire facts , and the entire truth

news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100725/wl_africa_afp/egyptreligion

thank God i found this link

i hope if you understand my view afterall

peace

Hello, elwill.

Thank you for providing that yahoo link, reporting the good news that the wife of the Coptic priest, missing for five days, was not kidnapped after all by Muslims, as feared by the Copts in your country. You are right in that we should not jump to conclusions.

However, much as you do not wish to hear this repeated, there have been enough verified and documented cases of the abduction of young Coptic girls in Egypt. And extreme hardships placed by the government and Egyptian Muslim society on citizen converts to Christianity, like Mark Gabriel, El-Gowhary and his daughter, and Mohammed Gehazy, to name a few.

I understand you do not readily believe this sort of news, because you think they are overly sensationalized or not reliable, and you don’t see any violence against Christians where you live, an integrated and peaceful neighborhood that includes Christians. I also realize that Egypt is a big country, and Cairo and Alexandria alone are huge. Hence the detachment, but it would be hard to believe that you do not hear or are not aware of events outside your bubble.

Have you heard about the news about Nagla –Al-Imam, an Egyptian female lawyer, who has disappeared? The first is a short video clip, the second contains Nagla’s own statement, and the third a news blog about her disappearance. Very heartbreaking! FYI, the site I obtained this from, markdurie.com, is very reliable and can stand up to scrutiny by any Muslim or non-Muslim. What is your reaction to this, please?

I follow news on the Christian minority in the Middle East, praying that the situations in Egypt, Iraq, Iran, and Lebanon would ease up for them. They are not attacking Muslims, not even returning the “favor” of violence and brutality. It can’t be said that the Muslims are engaging in a defensive action at all. The Christians are on the receiving end of pure intolerance and persecution. Do you still believe these actions are isolated, criminal acts, without connection to any Islamic teaching of intolerance? I ask this with respect and not to insult.

We have had this discussion before. I hope you do not feel that you are personally being blamed for this ill or injustice that we see in Egypt. Egypt has a great culture and we on this forum are just trying to make sense of what’s happening there in the context of the OP.

The world has gotten smaller with the Internet, has it not? And we Catholics look back two thousand years to that special land – to where the Holy Family took refuge to escape King Herod’s men, to save our dear Lord Jesus Christ. Our salvation history is indeed one great story, beginning to end!

Peace to you. You deserve credit for hanging in this forum.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

InSearchofGrace…thanks!

You’re very welcome.

 

[Advance]

I wish what you are saying is true. We are very different. In our religious beliefs and culture. But as was noted. A new Saladin is sorely needed today to stifle the likes of al-queda and other terrorist groups. Please keep in mind that it is the lack of widespread condemnation by muslims of the behavior of these terrorist groups that widens the gap between west and east. Between Christian and Muslim.

My dear friend,

What could be stronger than our partnership in creation? We have a tendency to forget where we came from, from darkness into light! We give no thanks and we have a consistent desire to raise false notions for selfish reasons. I say we as Muslims and Christians bow down to the ground to the Lord who has created us all from one. Bow down to the ground like Adam , Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed did! That’s the truth and if anyone tells you otherwise look beyond their ignorance. God states in the Quran that he has created us into nations and tribes so that we may get to know eachother, not murder nor aggravate eachother.

Our differences are nothing but self made.

 

[FaithJoy]

My dear friend,

What could be stronger than our partnership in creation? We have a tendency to forget where we came from, from darkness into light! We give no thanks and we have a consistent desire to raise false notions for selfish reasons. I say we as Muslims and Christians bow down to the ground to the Lord who has created us all from one. Bow down to the ground like Adam , Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed did! That’s the truth and if anyone tells you otherwise look beyond their ignorance. God states in the Quran that he has created us into nations and tribes so that we may get to know eachother, not murder nor aggravate eachother.

Our differences are nothing but self made.

I agree, therefore Christians starting tomorrow will build Churches all throughout Saudi Arabia. Live there, worship there and we ALL get along.
Muslims, make the first move to allow Christians to worship there and not hide from it. we bow down to the same God? Therefore this will happen? Our differences are self made you say? I would like you to back up what you say and say here , right now, how wrong those Muslim countries are to NOT allow Christian Churches there, then we can start from somewhere.