Understanding Islamic Views

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According to the below verse the Bible was originally sent down by God himself. How was it then corrupted by the original writers such as St Paul? That would mean the original Bible itself was corrupt and hence leads to my confusion as to how it was originally from God…

“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).” Surah 3:3

Basically I guess what I’m asking is if God is the original author of the Bible through the instrumentality of the writers. How could the instruments (writers) be deceitful at the same time?

God bless,
 
Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted which is not. Its a claim said by them and the Quran that Christians have altered or corrupted the Scriptures. But the questions Muslims can’t answer: Who corrupted the Bible? When? What year? Muslims cannot answer this question, its drilled to them since the start, they possess no clear argument, they can say as many times the Bible is corrupted but they have no evidence of the Corruption. If the Bible is Corrupted, then that means God is a Weak and He can’t protect his own Words. It is mentioned in the Quran that there were 124,000 messengers of Islam for every Nation. Who are these Messengers? Where are the Scriptures of these Messengers? Unless El-Shaitan (The Devil) has somehow corrupted the messages of the 124,000 messengers, therefore, Shaitan has kicked God in the rear 124,000 times. No no no no, its their error. God isn’t weak, and He ain’t gonna let the Devil kick his rear like this.
 
Kitsune633 said:
Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted which is not. Its a claim said by them and the Quran that Christians have altered or corrupted the Scriptures. But the questions Muslims can’t answer: Who corrupted the Bible? When? What year? Muslims cannot answer this question, its drilled to them since the start, they possess no clear argument, they can say as many times the Bible is corrupted but they have no evidence of the Corruption. If the Bible is Corrupted, then that means God is a Weak and He can’t protect his own Words. It is mentioned in the Quran that there were 124,000 messengers of Islam for every Nation. Who are these Messengers? Where are the Scriptures of these Messengers? Unless El-Shaitan (The Devil) has somehow corrupted the messages of the 124,000 messengers, therefore, Shaitan has kicked God in the rear 124,000 times. No no no no, its their error. God isn’t weak, and He ain’t gonna let the Devil kick his rear like this.
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Strangely, despite the facts that (i) Ishmael was the first to be circumcised by Abraham and (ii) Moses’ father-in-law Jethro, an Ishmaelite should have received the Law thro’ Moses around the same time as the Israelites or even ealier, yet they have no record of their original scriptures and it had to be revealed all over again by angel Gabriel.
 
The_Way said:
According to the below verse the Bible was originally sent down by God himself. How was it then corrupted by the original writers such as St Paul? That would mean the original Bible itself was corrupt and hence leads to my confusion as to how it was originally from God…

“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).” Surah 3:3

Basically I guess what I’m asking is if God is the original author of the Bible through the instrumentality of the writers. How could the instruments (writers) be deceitful at the same time?

God bless,
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The “Gospel” writers often mention that Jesus going about and preaching the Gospel (the Injeel):
  1. “And Jesus went . . . preaching the gospel . . . and healing every disease among the people.” (Matthew 9:35)
  2. “… but whosoever shall lose his fife for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.” (Mark 8:35)
  3. “… preached the gospel. . .” (Luke 20:1)
which Gospel these gospeles are mentioned ? is it paul writings ?

The “gospel” is a frequently-used word, but what Gospel did Jesus preach? Of the 27 books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus. The Christians boast about the Gospels according to St. Matthew, according to St. Mark, according to St. Luke and according to St. John, but there is not a single Gospel “according” to (St.) Jesus himself! We sincerely believe that everything Christ (May the peace and blessings of God be upon him) preached was from God. That was the Injeel, the good news and the guidance of God for the Children of Israel.

Most Greek-speaking authors heard these traditions (the original gospel) in the Aramaic vernacular and committed them to writing in Greek. None of these writings is dated prior to the year 70 AD; there is not a single instance in these works where the author has cited an authority for an event or maxim attributed to Jesus in order that we might construct a chain of transmission. Furthermore, even their works have not survived. Thousands of Greek manuscripts of the New Testament were collected, but none of them is older than the 4th century AD; rather the origin of most of them does not go beyond the period intervening between the 11th and the 14th centuries. Some scattered fragments on papyrus found in Egypt claim no greater antiquity than the third century. Who translated the Bible from Greek into Latin and when did he do it, we cannot say
 
elwill said:
The “Gospel” writers often mention that Jesus going about and preaching the Gospel (the Injeel):
  1. “And Jesus went . . . preaching the gospel . . . and healing every disease among the people.” (Matthew 9:35)
  2. “… but whosoever shall lose his fife for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.” (Mark 8:35)
  3. “… preached the gospel. . .” (Luke 20:1)
which Gospel these gospeles are mentioned ? is it paul writings ?

The “gospel” is a frequently-used word, but what Gospel did Jesus preach? Of the 27 books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus. The Christians boast about the Gospels according to St. Matthew, according to St. Mark, according to St. Luke and according to St. John, but there is not a single Gospel “according” to (St.) Jesus himself! We sincerely believe that everything Christ (May the peace and blessings of God be upon him) preached was from God. That was the Injeel, the good news and the guidance of God for the Children of Israel.

Most Greek-speaking authors heard these traditions (the original gospel) in the Aramaic vernacular and committed them to writing in Greek. None of these writings is dated prior to the year 70 AD; there is not a single instance in these works where the author has cited an authority for an event or maxim attributed to Jesus in order that we might construct a chain of transmission. Furthermore, even their works have not survived. Thousands of Greek manuscripts of the New Testament were collected, but none of them is older than the 4th century AD; rather the origin of most of them does not go beyond the period intervening between the 11th and the 14th centuries. Some scattered fragments on papyrus found in Egypt claim no greater antiquity than the third century. Who translated the Bible from Greek into Latin and when did he do it, we cannot say
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So therefore, this is the Corruption of the Injeel? The Book of Allah is corrupted Elwill?
 
A physical copy from ancient antiquity not surviving with an early enough date does not a corruption make. It just means that an early enough copy has not yet been found. That is not proof that things were corrupted. KWIM? From what I remember, the Koran & Hadiths were not written down for many years, especially the Hadiths. Can I then claim that the things they say are not as they really happened & tell you that your religion is corrupted?
 
The_Way said:
Basically I guess what I’m asking is if God is the original author of the Bible through the instrumentality of the writers. How could the instruments (writers) be deceitful at the same time?God bless,
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Some of the Muslim clerics explain that Allah did not protect the Torah and the Gospel himself, he assigned that task to the Jews and Christians whom failed to protect those books, then Allah had to send the Quran and protected himself this time per (Quran 15:9):

*YUSUFALI: We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
PICKTHAL: Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.
SHAKIR: Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.
*
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ
​

But if we thoroughly look at Quran, we still find many issues that could classify Quran as a “corrupted book”, from authentic hadiths which describe that there was a stoning verse in Quran and now no more, and the length of some Surras are different now than the days of Muhammed, and the goat which ate some verses under Aisha bed, to the burning of Quran itself by Othman…
 
autdrew said:
A physical copy from ancient antiquity not surviving with an early enough date does not a corruption make. It just means that an early enough copy has not yet been found. That is not proof that things were corrupted. KWIM? From what I remember, the Koran & Hadiths were not written down for many years, especially the Hadiths. Can I then claim that the things they say are not as they really happened & tell you that your religion is corrupted?
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let us agree with somthing , the injill from point of view of islam is the gospel which was preached by jesus (pbuh) directly not the history and records and openions of human which were authored about his his after his departure

when i read in the gospel records happened after his death , then it will means to me that it’s not pure gospele of jesus , it contains the teaching of jesus within it but it was mixed with external views and external records which jesus never preach .
so that entirly i can’t consider it pure gospel of jesus (pbuh) which quran talking about

can you deny that most the Bible is records of eye witnessess or ear witnesses, or people writing from hearsay.

why you can’t believe the posiibility of bible corruption , while it was mentioned within it the punishment of whoever do such things
“. . . If any man shall add to these things (or delete) God shall add unto him the plagues written in this Book.”
(Revelation 22:18-19)

The Protestants have bravely expunged seven whole books from their Book of God! The outcasts are:
The Book of Judith
The Book of Tobias
The Book of Baruch
The Buck of Esther,
can you consider thier bible corrupted one ( i’m trying to find common understanding for this concept " corruption" )
 
Elwill, you’re using a straw man fallacy, which is where someone brings up something off topic (protestants) to create controversy. Anyways whAt do Muslims contend, that somehow A massive worldwide bible changing crusade was organized in which every written bible was edited to… Whatever… And that somehow the oral trAditions And memorized scriptures were somehow erased? MUSLIMS, PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE MY POST!!!
 
elwill said:
The “Gospel” writers often mention that Jesus going about and preaching the Gospel (the Injeel):
  1. “And Jesus went . . . preaching the gospel . . . and healing every disease among the people.” (Matthew 9:35)
  2. “… but whosoever shall lose his fife for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.” (Mark 8:35)
  3. “… preached the gospel. . .” (Luke 20:1)
which Gospel these gospeles are mentioned ? is it paul writings ?

… snip for space … ~
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Elwill… you didn’t list your source for this… where did it come from…? - Because surely, Greek Biblical Scholars would disagree with what you wrote…

The word “Gospel” in English is the Greek word “Eὐαγγέλιον” when used in the Bible it means “Good News” - the εὐαγγέλιον is NOT a physical book at the time of Jesus.

So Jesus preached the **Good News **- All 3 verses you posted above have the Greek word εὐαγγέλιον.

The "Good News/Gospel didn’t become written documents until after Jesus Death & Resurrection.

What does Injeel really mean in Arabic…?

I know it means Gospel, what does Gospel mean in Arabic…??
 
elwill said:
let us agree with somthing , the injill from point of view of islam is the gospel which was preached by jesus (pbuh) directly not the history and records and openions of human which were authored about his his after his departure

when i read in the gospel records happened after his death , then it will means to me that it’s not pure gospele of jesus , it contains the teaching of jesus within it but it was mixed with external views and external records which jesus never preach . … snip …
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Bold statement you made right there - care to back it up …!!!

If it wasn’t the “pure Gospel of Jesus”, The Apostles would have not laid down and died for a hoax they created.
 
elwill said:
yes 🙂
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Therefore, you accuse Allah of corrupting His Books. If you Muslims say the Torah is corrupted, and the Injeel is Corrupted, therefore the Quran is corrupted. Is Allah a weak God? What was he doing when the Corruptuon happened? Was he drinking soda? Making the houri virgins that your Imams, Ayatollahs, and Muftis promised you? Was Allah watching TV or having some Private Time with His Wife? If the Books of Islam are corrupted (The Torah, the Injeel) therefore, the Quran is corrupted. Allah’s rear must be red after Shaitan kicked him after not once not twice but 124,0000 times. If Allah sent 124,000Messengers of Islam for every nation and He didn’t even bother to protect His Words, then Shaitan kicked him 124,000 thousand times. What do you have to say Elwill?
 
jakasaki said:
Elwill… you didn’t list your source for this… where did it come from…? - Because surely, Greek Biblical Scholars would disagree with what you wrote…

The word “Gospel” in English is the Greek word “Eὐαγγέλιον” when used in the Bible it means “Good News” - the εὐαγγέλιον is NOT a physical book at the time of Jesus.

So Jesus preached the **Good News **- All 3 verses you posted above have the Greek word εὐαγγέλιον.

The "Good News/Gospel didn’t become written documents until after Jesus Death & Resurrection.

What does Injeel really mean in Arabic…?

I know it means Gospel, what does Gospel mean in Arabic…??
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i have no problems with what you said
 
elwill said:
i have no problems with what you said
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Originally Posted by elwill
The “Gospel” writers often mention that Jesus going about and preaching the Gospel (the Injeel):
Click to expand...
  1. “And Jesus went . . . preaching the gospel . . . and healing every disease among the people.” (Matthew 9:35)
Click to expand...
  1. “… but whosoever shall lose his fife for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.” (Mark 8:35)
Click to expand...
  1. “… preached the gospel. . .” (Luke 20:1)
Click to expand...
**which Gospel these gospeles are mentioned ? is it paul writings **?
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Elwill, after you posted the 3 verses, you wrote, note bold size 3 font.

Please clarify the bold part associated with the 3 verses. Thanks
 
jakasaki said:
Bold statement you made right there - care to back it up …!!!
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“So Moses…DIED… and he (God Almighty) BURIED HIM (Moses)… He was 120 years old WHEN HE DIED… and there arose not a prophet SINCE in Israel like unto Moses…(Deuteronomy 34:5-10)”

Did Moses write his own obituary? Similarly, Joshua too speaks in detail about his own death in Joshua 24:29-33.

“And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, DIED, … And they BURIED HIM … And Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the Lord, that he had done for Israel ….(Joshua 24:29-33)”

Let us have a slightly more detailed look at only one book of the New Testament, that of ‘Hebrews’:

“The author of the Book of Hebrews is unknown. Martin Luther suggested that Apollos was the author…Tertullian said that Hebrews was a letter of Barnabas…Adolf Harnack and J. Rendel Harris speculated that it was written by Priscilla (or Prisca). William Ramsey suggested that it was done by Philip. However, the traditional position is that the Apostle Paul wrote Hebrews…Eusebius believed that Paul wrote it, but Origen was not positive of Pauline authorship.”

From the introduction to the King James Bible, New revised and updated sixth edition, the Hebrew/Greek Key Study, Red Letter Edition

and one book of the Old Testament:

“In tradition, [David] is credited with writing 73 of the Psalms; **most scholars, however, consider this claim questionable.” **

Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)"

In the book “The Story of the Manuscripts” by Rev. George E. Merrill, the good Reverend quotes Prof. Arnold as stating:
“there are not more than fifteen hundred to two thousand places in which there is any uncertainty whatever as to the true text…”
 
jakasaki said:
Elwill, after you posted the 3 verses, you wrote, note bold size 3 font.

Please clarify the bold part associated with the 3 verses. Thanks
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my understanding for the OP , is that it assumed that writings of paul is original gosple
 
After carefully reading the posts to develop a better understanding of the Islamic point of view, it appears to come down to one knot. Muslims believe the Bible is corrupt only because Mohammed said so, that’s their only source.

Are there any historical or archeological evidence to prove the Bible has been changed?

They generally believe although the Bible is corrupt it still contains some fragments of truth. This is hard to believe because the style of writing, choice of words etc. remain constant throughout according to the Gospel writer. There is no evidence to suggest any of the Gospels have been tampered with…

God bless,
 
I think that Islamic view is that God can only give revelation to mankind through some sort of “dictation”, a revelation of some tablets that had been written in heaven, …it’s why they perceived everything through rigid black and white argument, halal non halal, permissible and non permissible for they find that the law is not formed for the benefits of human themselves but delivered as something to be obeyed without question. They find it hard to grasp that God works through human mind, inspire them, teach them, make them learn through their experience, proving that what had come to inspired man had been tested through time as experiencing God’s mystery yet convincing company and partnership . Islamic view is a dogma that teaches human mind as something incapable of deciding the best for themselves, thus putting man as just “slave’” or worse “robot”…
 
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