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pismopal
Guest
Those who say that dialogue with muslims is a pure waste of time…may rest their case:shrug:
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KathleenGee
Guest
elwill,
I have found that the mentality of Muslims is very different from that of Catholics, and other Protestants. People will explain things to Muslims and they do not understand the subtle issues…issues that are the very means that prove truth from falsehood.
I have found that the mentality of Muslims is very different from that of Catholics, and other Protestants. People will explain things to Muslims and they do not understand the subtle issues…issues that are the very means that prove truth from falsehood.
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Cinette
Guest
*Surely as human beings we can recognize white from black, light from darkness, good from evil??
Surely we all possess reason?
Biologically we are the same - we feel, laugh, cry, think!!
Can we not individually think for yourselves, reason and come to logical conclusions?
It seems that what makes us cry does not touch the Muslim! What is outrageous to us it natural to them!
What is the cause of this?
Cinette
*
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Cinette
Guest
CORRECTION*Surely as human beings we can recognize white from black, light from darkness, good from evil??
Surely we all possess reason?
Biologically we are the same - we feel, laugh, cry, think!!
Can we not individually think for yourselves, reason and come to logical conclusions?
It seems that what makes us cry does not touch the Muslim! What is outrageous to us it natural to them!
What is the cause of this?
Cinette
*Can we not logically think for ourselves…
Blessings
Cinette
*
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elwill
Guest
Cinette , **my blame wasn’t for you ***Why elwill? You do not provide a satisfactory answer. You think that by denying the truth you are giving an answer? I asked you about things I have read in the Qu’ran and you deny they are from the Qu’ran - even if they are commentary - I found then in the Qu’ran. How can you deny this? Denying is no answer. How can we debate with you when you provide no real answers, no real explanations!
*
i have no proplem to dsicuss what you think to be the truth
may be we will differ about what is the truth , but i will understand your view and keep the dsicussion with you as long as you lead the discussion in respectful manner
you can read 4 different translation for chapter#1 in quran , to trust me when i say that nor christians nor jews are mentioned in this surah
searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=1&from_verse=1&to_verse=7&mac=&translation_setting=1&show_transliteration=1&show_yusufali=1&show_shakir=1&show_pickthal=1&show_mkhan=1
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, KathleenGee,
I just joined, and have tried to catch up on some of the posts…and read yours…
Muslims basically not only preserved Western Civilization during the Dark Ages, but made tremendous advances in art, literature, philosophy, math and chemistry at a time when most of Europe was quite content to be beating each other’s citizens over the head with some type of lethal object.
No communication can possibly flourish if we approach others with the idea that they are somehow intellectually inferior and devoid of the subtle reasoning power all humans possess. Muslims differ from Christians in their basic belief - but, this is no reason to be both factually wrong and insulting to an entire group of people.
God bless
I just joined, and have tried to catch up on some of the posts…and read yours…
I found this post of yours, particularly demeaning and seeming to embrace a cultural bias that defies the subtle reasoning you claim to praise. This is not the real world.
Muslims basically not only preserved Western Civilization during the Dark Ages, but made tremendous advances in art, literature, philosophy, math and chemistry at a time when most of Europe was quite content to be beating each other’s citizens over the head with some type of lethal object.
No communication can possibly flourish if we approach others with the idea that they are somehow intellectually inferior and devoid of the subtle reasoning power all humans possess. Muslims differ from Christians in their basic belief - but, this is no reason to be both factually wrong and insulting to an entire group of people.
God bless
C
cathdoki
Guest
Truth is truth. There is nothing to understand what she “believes” to be the truth. Truth is truth. Even if you don’t accept it.
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jakasaki
Guest
Elwill, you are correct to say that surah 1 verse 7 within the “searchtruth.com” tafsir does not mention Jews & Christians, however, the site I presented “altafsir.com” does say it is about Christians & Jews.
Many muslims as well as non-muslims throughout the internet forums use “altafsir.com” to understand the commentary of the koran.
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cathdoki
Guest
WhatHi, KathleenGee,
I just joined, and have tried to catch up on some of the posts…and read yours…
I found this post of yours, particularly demeaning and seeming to embrace a cultural bias that defies the subtle reasoning you claim to praise. This is not the real world.
Muslims basically not only preserved Western Civilization during the Dark Ages, but made tremendous advances in art, literature, philosophy, math and chemistry at a time when most of Europe was quite content to be beating each other’s citizens over the head with some type of lethal object.
No communication can possibly flourish if we approach others with the idea that they are somehow intellectually inferior and devoid of the subtle reasoning power all humans possess. Muslims differ from Christians in their basic belief - but, this is no reason to be both factually wrong and insulting to an entire group of people.
God bless
Let me explain something to you. I met a muslim in the grocery store last week and had a brief polite conversation regarding her about the potate sack she was wearing in 100 degree weather. I didn’t say it that way, but merely asked if she was hot, and that I meant no disrespect. She admitted being hot. Her teenage daughter had on the same garb. Her teenage son was wearing a tee shirt, shorts, and sandals! She was covered in a bag because God wants her to be. Her son could dress however because God said so. WACKED OUT!
Now, muslims did do much in early science. Now that world has blown past them in leaps and bounds they reject science! Unless of course it’s for nuclear weapons or for the betterment of the elite.
Currently:
- females are circumcised so that they do not enjoy the pleasure of sexual relations with their husband
- non-religious music is prohibited in many muslim countries
- women are not allowed to leave the house without a male relative
- women can be beaten for showing disrespect toward their husbands
- women can be KILLED according to the koran for disobeying or embarrassing their husbands.
- Christians and Jews are dogs and pigs. (it’s in the koran, read it) I don’t mind because I love bacon, boiled dinner made with pork shoulder, sausages, and bbq. Even more so I love my 2 GSDs and my Husky puppy.
- you, my dear Catholic aquaintance, are kafir and inferior, and allowed to be killed for being a non-believer. At the very least you have to pay a tax to live in muslim lands.
- As a Christian you are not worth as much as a muslim in God’s eyes (remember the muslims are heretics and believe that the koran is not only the word of their god, but his enbodiment (sp))
- muslims kill people that want to leave their “religion”, keep in mind that communism is a religion.
Gabriel appeared to the Blessed Mother to tell her she would conceive of the Holy Spirit and have the Son of God. The Great I Am. (remember before Pilate Jesus said “I Am”. Pilate didn’t understand, but the crowd did). mohammad claimed the same angel told him that Jesus was just a regular person. No different than you and me. As a matter of fact, much less knowledgeable since science has come a long way in 2000 years. And if Jesus was a plain man he wouldn’t have known where science was going).
Please don’t be insulted by me or another poster for stating fact. READ THE koran, then post from an informed position
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Cinette
Guest
*What is in dispute here is not the contribution that certain Arab nations have made to math, chemistry, literature and art etc.Hi, KathleenGee,
I just joined, and have tried to catch up on some of the posts…and read yours…
I found this post of yours, particularly demeaning and seeming to embrace a cultural bias that defies the subtle reasoning you claim to praise. This is not the real world.
Muslims basically not only preserved Western Civilization during the Dark Ages, but made tremendous advances in art, literature, philosophy, math and chemistry at a time when most of Europe was quite content to be beating each other’s citizens over the head with some type of lethal object.
No communication can possibly flourish if we approach others with the idea that they are somehow intellectually inferior and devoid of the subtle reasoning power all humans possess. Muslims differ from Christians in their basic belief - but, this is no reason to be both factually wrong and insulting to an entire group of people.
God bless
It is the fact that it becomes impossible to discourse with Muslims on this thread. You will notice that the topic of this thread is"Understanding Islamic Views". I have quoted from Qu’ran and demonstrated that Jews and Christians are not held in high esteem. It is said that there are more women in hell for not respecting their husbands etc. I wanted their comment on that.
I also asked about the persecution of Christians in Muslim countries and the burning of Churches. No comment. Nothing.
It appears that you have not read the other postings on this thread Tom.
Cinette
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cathdoki
Guest
You are absolutely correct Cinette. No reply. The evidence is there and they cannot dispute it. When they ask you to upload something, it’s not because they want to learn, it’s because they know you may not be able to do it. All they have to do is read the news.*What is in dispute here is not the contribution that certain Arab nations have made to math, chemistry, literature and art etc.
It is the fact that it becomes impossible to discourse with Muslims on this thread. You will notice that the topic of this thread is"Understanding Islamic Views". I have quoted from Qu’ran and demonstrated that Jews and Christians are not held in high esteem. It is said that there are more women in hell for not respecting their husbands etc. I wanted their comment on that.
I also asked about the persecution of Christians in Muslim countries and the burning of Churches. No comment. Nothing.
It appears that you have not read the other postings on this thread Tom.
Cinette
God bless
C
cathdoki
Guest
I will never back down from the truth. Life here is short. Eternity, well, that lasts forever. I do enough wrong that puts my soul in jeopardy. I will always hold to the truth of Jesus Christ. Regardless of the punishment. One thing that can save me.
I also believe that there are many muslims who have not been exposed to the truth. In that case, if they live the life that Jesus prescribed in the Gospel, then I believe they will be welcomed into heaven. But those that have been shown the truth and refuse to accept it are condemned. Not my words, but the words of Jesus. THE GREAT I AM.
Muslims that post here have read the Bible and admit it. They reject it. Jesus’ own words condemns them to an eternity of suffering.
I also thank God that I was not around during the days that Jesus walked the earth. I may have been one of the fools that rejected Him and thought He was just a nutcase.
I also believe that there are many muslims who have not been exposed to the truth. In that case, if they live the life that Jesus prescribed in the Gospel, then I believe they will be welcomed into heaven. But those that have been shown the truth and refuse to accept it are condemned. Not my words, but the words of Jesus. THE GREAT I AM.
Muslims that post here have read the Bible and admit it. They reject it. Jesus’ own words condemns them to an eternity of suffering.
I also thank God that I was not around during the days that Jesus walked the earth. I may have been one of the fools that rejected Him and thought He was just a nutcase.
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jakasaki
Guest
- they are not allowed to question islam/allah/mohamad/koran
Everything mohamad did in the 7th century, is being emulated today by the muslims.
And for the poster mentioning something about the golden age of islam, well, that is pretty much were it stopped and have shown/made no progress in the past few centuries.
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cathdoki
Guest
They have actually regressed!
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KathleenGee
Guest
Tqualey,
Check out www.newageislam.com.
Secondly, Muslims learn their beliefs through rote memorization to a most profound way. Christians study their faith through various methods. Fundamentalists learn Scripture through study, and also work to rote memorize Scripture quotes, but not with such deep fervor as Muslims. I have heard of a few fundamentalist Christians who can repeat a large amount of passages of Scripture.
Catholics study Scripture basically in context of the whole. Each word and phrase is connected to the greater picture of salvation history. Catholics are the least inclined to rote memorize the Sacred Scriptures of any Christians.
So the difference in applying one’s self to Scripture by a Catholic vs other Christians in comparison to a Muslim studying the Koran are most different and vast.
Check out www.newageislam.com.
Secondly, Muslims learn their beliefs through rote memorization to a most profound way. Christians study their faith through various methods. Fundamentalists learn Scripture through study, and also work to rote memorize Scripture quotes, but not with such deep fervor as Muslims. I have heard of a few fundamentalist Christians who can repeat a large amount of passages of Scripture.
Catholics study Scripture basically in context of the whole. Each word and phrase is connected to the greater picture of salvation history. Catholics are the least inclined to rote memorize the Sacred Scriptures of any Christians.
So the difference in applying one’s self to Scripture by a Catholic vs other Christians in comparison to a Muslim studying the Koran are most different and vast.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Cathdoki and Cinette,
No doubt about it - perspectives do differ!
You know, Cathdoki, you think you were ‘being polite’ but, if you thought these gals were wearing ‘potato sacks’ and were very uncomfortable in 100 degree weather - yet were still making a statement about their religion - don’t you think your thoughts were convey in your tone of voice as some quite different from ‘polite’. There is no politie way to ridicule someone for their beliefs.
The lament was that there were no responses from Muslims - and, as we read, they are being called stupid, mislead, with different customs that are seen as degrading to women and to Christians.
It would appear to me that if anyone is especially interested in understanding Islamic views, then they would stop calling them names, criticizing their culture and just listen to what they have to say. Since, at least from my limited view, there is an open position of antipathy for not only all things Muslims but for the people themselves - I guess I am surprised that there are those on this list who are surprised there has been a limited response.
Let me be quite clear about this: I am a firm and committed follower of Christ through His Church. Statements made by other groups are not the issue - at least if understanding is the goal. It would appear to me that there is precious little desire for any real understanding on this topic. I will ‘lurk’ for a while and see if anything really does develop… and if so, we will see what happens. I joined this thread at the request of a friend but, I many not be able to offer any real help here. The issue is NOT how Muslims have responded to Christians - but, rather how do I choose to respond to them today. I have freely chosen to say, “I am listening.”
God bless
No doubt about it - perspectives do differ!
You know, Cathdoki, you think you were ‘being polite’ but, if you thought these gals were wearing ‘potato sacks’ and were very uncomfortable in 100 degree weather - yet were still making a statement about their religion - don’t you think your thoughts were convey in your tone of voice as some quite different from ‘polite’. There is no politie way to ridicule someone for their beliefs.
The lament was that there were no responses from Muslims - and, as we read, they are being called stupid, mislead, with different customs that are seen as degrading to women and to Christians.
It would appear to me that if anyone is especially interested in understanding Islamic views, then they would stop calling them names, criticizing their culture and just listen to what they have to say. Since, at least from my limited view, there is an open position of antipathy for not only all things Muslims but for the people themselves - I guess I am surprised that there are those on this list who are surprised there has been a limited response.
Let me be quite clear about this: I am a firm and committed follower of Christ through His Church. Statements made by other groups are not the issue - at least if understanding is the goal. It would appear to me that there is precious little desire for any real understanding on this topic. I will ‘lurk’ for a while and see if anything really does develop… and if so, we will see what happens. I joined this thread at the request of a friend but, I many not be able to offer any real help here. The issue is NOT how Muslims have responded to Christians - but, rather how do I choose to respond to them today. I have freely chosen to say, “I am listening.”
God bless
C
cathdoki
Guest
I understand what you are saying. If you’ve participated in threads here regarding muslims you must have noticed little respect for Christians. It’s a Christiain Catholic forum, but all are free to express their opinions. On a Christian forum we have had people call us heretics for believing that Jesus is truly God. muslims put God in a box. He can only do what mohammad says He can do. mohammad was deceived. BTW…I intentionally do not capitalize muslim, islam or mohammad. I pay no respect to those who have deceived billions of people and lead them away from Christ. mohammad was a lunatic looking for power. The koran is a statement of war and hate. It is true that in the OT God used His vengence to defeat the enemies of Israel, but in the koran, we are pigs and dogs. Plain and simple. My friend, please take the time to read the koran if you haven’t. It will be an eye opener.Hi, Cathdoki and Cinette,
No doubt about it - perspectives do differ!
You know, Cathdoki, you think you were ‘being polite’ but, if you thought these gals were wearing ‘potato sacks’ and were very uncomfortable in 100 degree weather - yet were still making a statement about their religion - don’t you think your thoughts were convey in your tone of voice as some quite different from ‘polite’. There is no politie way to ridicule someone for their beliefs.
The lament was that there were no responses from Muslims - and, as we read, they are being called stupid, mislead, with different customs that are seen as degrading to women and to Christians.
It would appear to me that if anyone is especially interested in understanding Islamic views, then they would stop calling them names, criticizing their culture and just listen to what they have to say. Since, at least from my limited view, there is an open position of antipathy for not only all things Muslims but for the people themselves - I guess I am surprised that there are those on this list who are surprised there has been a limited response.
Let me be quite clear about this: I am a firm and committed follower of Christ through His Church. Statements made by other groups are not the issue - at least if understanding is the goal. It would appear to me that there is precious little desire for any real understanding on this topic. I will ‘lurk’ for a while and see if anything really does develop… and if so, we will see what happens. I joined this thread at the request of a friend but, I many not be able to offer any real help here. The issue is NOT how Muslims have responded to Christians - but, rather how do I choose to respond to them today. I have freely chosen to say, “I am listening.”
God bless
I
InSearchofGrace
Guest
tqualey,
If you have read Kathleen’s posts on related threads on Islam and Muslims, you would not regard her words here as reflecting cultural bias. This is not the first thread discussing Islam and the action/inaction by ‘peaceful’ Muslims in their homelands and in the West.
One does not need to be a scholar of Islamic studies to read and understand that the teachings of Islam are antithetical to universal laws of love and respect to others in Muslim and non-Muslim lands. Case in point: is the concept of reciprocity too hard to grasp so people of the world can live in peaceful co-existence with others of a different faith? Religion and civil society go hand in hand.
We do not advocate reciprocal violence against Muslims, but we have to move towards preserving our way of life and freedoms that evolved from our Judeo-Christian roots, notwithstanding many of us who have gone secular and detached from traditional values.
Continual appeasement of Muslims is not okay because we can see how it can lead to an Islamic America, as with evident trends in Europe and state of affairs in Muslim dominated countries that were Christian lands before where native Christian minorities still live.
These ‘peaceful’ Muslims have not demonstrated that they understand the subtleties of issues. In fact, to add to what Kathleen posted, some issues are not even subtle!
I remember watching a CBS feature by Leslie Stahl and Maajid Nawaz, a British former extremist, where they engaged in discussion educated Muslims in Pakistan who believe the outrageous narrative of Islamic ideology. The narrative being that the U.S. thru the CIA ordered Osama bin Ladin to bomb the twin towers so it would have a pretext to destroy Muslims (which they believe to be America’s goal) in Afghanistan and Iraq. Like there are no Muslims in America who could be attacked easier, right in our country, if this were true. And we had to bomb the towers and the Pentagon ourselves. How do college-educated Muslims reach or buy such a conclusion?
On every thread on Islam where we invite Muslims to express their views in this forum, the question begs to be asked, with due respect: do good Muslims of this world lack independent thought? Where is the discernment and self-examination? If such faculties are there, where is the courage, the willingness to exercise them in the interest of peace and goodwill? 1400 years have passed – when will Muslim men give equal rights to its generations of long suffering women? When will Muslim women make a stand, like their sisters in the Canadian province of Ontario who unified and rejected sharia law?
If you have read Kathleen’s posts on related threads on Islam and Muslims, you would not regard her words here as reflecting cultural bias. This is not the first thread discussing Islam and the action/inaction by ‘peaceful’ Muslims in their homelands and in the West.
One does not need to be a scholar of Islamic studies to read and understand that the teachings of Islam are antithetical to universal laws of love and respect to others in Muslim and non-Muslim lands. Case in point: is the concept of reciprocity too hard to grasp so people of the world can live in peaceful co-existence with others of a different faith? Religion and civil society go hand in hand.
We do not advocate reciprocal violence against Muslims, but we have to move towards preserving our way of life and freedoms that evolved from our Judeo-Christian roots, notwithstanding many of us who have gone secular and detached from traditional values.
Continual appeasement of Muslims is not okay because we can see how it can lead to an Islamic America, as with evident trends in Europe and state of affairs in Muslim dominated countries that were Christian lands before where native Christian minorities still live.
These ‘peaceful’ Muslims have not demonstrated that they understand the subtleties of issues. In fact, to add to what Kathleen posted, some issues are not even subtle!
I remember watching a CBS feature by Leslie Stahl and Maajid Nawaz, a British former extremist, where they engaged in discussion educated Muslims in Pakistan who believe the outrageous narrative of Islamic ideology. The narrative being that the U.S. thru the CIA ordered Osama bin Ladin to bomb the twin towers so it would have a pretext to destroy Muslims (which they believe to be America’s goal) in Afghanistan and Iraq. Like there are no Muslims in America who could be attacked easier, right in our country, if this were true. And we had to bomb the towers and the Pentagon ourselves. How do college-educated Muslims reach or buy such a conclusion?
On every thread on Islam where we invite Muslims to express their views in this forum, the question begs to be asked, with due respect: do good Muslims of this world lack independent thought? Where is the discernment and self-examination? If such faculties are there, where is the courage, the willingness to exercise them in the interest of peace and goodwill? 1400 years have passed – when will Muslim men give equal rights to its generations of long suffering women? When will Muslim women make a stand, like their sisters in the Canadian province of Ontario who unified and rejected sharia law?
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cathdoki
Guest
Thank you!
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tomarin
Guest
I’d say the opposite is true.
I thought the Koran also had good things to say about Christians and Jews (the “People of the Book”). Could it be that you’re highlighting the objectionable verses in order to validate your preconceived notions of this religion?
Also, I noticed that in your next post you criticize Muslims for being unable to understand reciprocity yet here you boast about how you don’t capitalize the names of their religion and founder. With all due respect, maybe it’s you who doesn’t understand reciprocity?
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