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elwill
Guest
may be
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Kitsune633
Guest
Let’s see Elwill, when a Coptic church is being contruscted, your government does some legal stuff or then changes its mind and a mosque gets built. Is that the proper Muslim behavior? The Hagia Sophia got converted into a mosque when the Turks conquered Constantinople in 1453, is the the proper Islamic behavior of peace and tolerance?
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Kitsune633
Guest
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Cinette
Guest
*There was a time when all of North Africa was predominantly Christian.
What happened to the Christians? Does anybody know?
Cinette
*
What happened to the Christians? Does anybody know?
Cinette
*
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, KathleenGee,
Thank you very much for sending it.
This is a very moving prayer, indeed.
God bless
Thank you very much for sending it.
This is a very moving prayer, indeed.
God bless
S
Sam_777
Guest
One of the factors is polygamy in Islam, Muslims have outnumbered Christians over there.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Cinette,
I think elwill provided an excellent response:
Man possesses the quality of intelligence and choice, thus he is invited to submit to the good will of God and obey His law (i.e. become a Muslim).
But, the real answer lies in how this was done, and the short answer is lies with the choices provided: become a Muslim or perish by the sword. The Muslim conquest of various lands including North Africa and here is a link that may be helpful: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests. And, for hundreds of years unknown numbers of people were simply murdered for not agreeing that Mohammad was what the Muslims claimed him to be. So, the presentation of someone having both “intellegence” and “choice” takes on a new dimension when one is evaluating their own demise.
In fairness, we really have to understand that that this began in the 8th Century - and viewing historic activity with 21st Century eyes is not necessarily helpful in understanding what was going on. Thee hundred years later, the sword and tactics of the Crusaders can be found to be equally troubling when it comes to respect for human rights. While diplomacy, negotiations and respect were all well established communication techniques, apparently nothing was viewed as effective as making one’s point with a sharp instrument.
Any discussion that omits the violence of how Islam spread is simply incomplete. Any discussion that omits how Christians and other non-Muslims are persecuted today is not only incomplete but distorted.
God bless
I think elwill provided an excellent response:
Man possesses the quality of intelligence and choice, thus he is invited to submit to the good will of God and obey His law (i.e. become a Muslim).
But, the real answer lies in how this was done, and the short answer is lies with the choices provided: become a Muslim or perish by the sword. The Muslim conquest of various lands including North Africa and here is a link that may be helpful: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests. And, for hundreds of years unknown numbers of people were simply murdered for not agreeing that Mohammad was what the Muslims claimed him to be. So, the presentation of someone having both “intellegence” and “choice” takes on a new dimension when one is evaluating their own demise.
In fairness, we really have to understand that that this began in the 8th Century - and viewing historic activity with 21st Century eyes is not necessarily helpful in understanding what was going on. Thee hundred years later, the sword and tactics of the Crusaders can be found to be equally troubling when it comes to respect for human rights. While diplomacy, negotiations and respect were all well established communication techniques, apparently nothing was viewed as effective as making one’s point with a sharp instrument.
Any discussion that omits the violence of how Islam spread is simply incomplete. Any discussion that omits how Christians and other non-Muslims are persecuted today is not only incomplete but distorted.
God bless
*There was a time when all of North Africa was predominantly Christian.
What happened to the Christians? Does anybody know?
Cinette
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Cinette
Guest
*Elwill - I am looking for your response to my posting #367. I am interested in your comments.
Thank you
Cinette*
Thank you
Cinette
*
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elwill
Guest
The conventional historical view is that the conquest of North Africa by the Islamic Umayyad Caliphate between AD 647–709 effectively ended Catholicism in Africa for several centuries. [3] The prevailing view is that the Church at that time lacked the backbone of a monastic tradition and was still suffering from the aftermath of heresies including the so-called Donatist heresy, and this contributed to the earlier obliteration of the Church in the present day Maghreb. [4] Some historians contrast this with the strong monastic tradition in Coptic Egypt, which is credited as a factor that allowed the Coptic Church to remain the majority faith in that country until around after the 14th century AD.*Elwill - I am looking for your response to my posting #367. I am interested in your comments.
Thank you
Cinette
However, new scholarship has appeared that disputes this. There are reports that the Roman Catholic faith persisted in the region from Tripolitania (present-day western Libya) to present-day Morocco for several centuries after the completion of the Arab conquest by 700 AD. A Christian community is recorded in 1114 in Qal’a in central Algeria. There is also evidence of religious pilgrimages after 850 AD to tombs of Catholic saints outside of the city of Carthage, and evidence of religious contacts with Christians of Arab Spain. In addition, calendar reforms adopted in Europe at this time were disseminated amongst the indigenous Christians of Tunis, which would have not been possible had there been an absence of contact with Rome.
Local Catholicism came under pressure when the Muslim fundamentalist regimes of the Almohads and Almoravids came into power, and the record shows demands made that the local Christians of Tunis to convert to Islam. We still have reports of Christian inhabitants and a bishop in the city of Kairouan around 1150 AD - a significant report, since this city was founded by Arab Muslims around 680 AD as their administrative center after their conquest. A letter in Catholic Church archives from the 1300s shows that there were still four bishoprics left in North Africa, admittedly a sharp decline from the over four hundred bishoprics in existence at the time of the Arab conquest. [5] Berber Christians continued to live in Tunis and Nefzaoua in the south of Tunisia up until the early fifteenth century, and the first quarter of the fifteenth century, we even read that the native Christians of Tunis, though much assimilated, extended their church, perhaps because the last Christians from all over the Maghreb had gathered there. [6]
By 1830, when the French came as colonial conquerors to Algeria and Tunis, local Catholicism had been extinguished. The growth of Catholicism in the region after the French conquest was built on European colonizers and settlers, and these immigrants and their descendants mostly left when the countries of the region became independent.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_conquest_of_North_Africa
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Cinette
Guest
Elwill -
How do we submit to the word of God? It seems that Christians, having gone astray, cannot submit to the will of God because, in the opinion of the Prophet, you follow the word of God when you obey his Muhammad’s word.
Another puzzling thing is that the preaching of Jesus Christ and the Prophet Muhammad are diametrically opposed. Jesus said: “Love thy neighbour” and Prophet Muhammad said “Hate Christians and Jews because with them you are in bad company” or words to that effect.
I feel that Muslims don’t have a clue on what Jesus represents. Strangely enough, Allah and his Messenger Muhammad had nothing to say about Hindus and Buddhists. I wonder why? Are they considered to be Muslims?
Cinette
How do we submit to the word of God? It seems that Christians, having gone astray, cannot submit to the will of God because, in the opinion of the Prophet, you follow the word of God when you obey his Muhammad’s word.
Another puzzling thing is that the preaching of Jesus Christ and the Prophet Muhammad are diametrically opposed. Jesus said: “Love thy neighbour” and Prophet Muhammad said “Hate Christians and Jews because with them you are in bad company” or words to that effect.
I feel that Muslims don’t have a clue on what Jesus represents. Strangely enough, Allah and his Messenger Muhammad had nothing to say about Hindus and Buddhists. I wonder why? Are they considered to be Muslims?
Cinette
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cathdoki
Guest
As you know…Jesus said:Elwill -
How do we submit to the word of God? It seems that Christians, having gone astray, cannot submit to the will of God because, in the opinion of the Prophet, you follow the word of God when you obey his Muhammad’s word.
Another puzzling thing is that the preaching of Jesus Christ and the Prophet Muhammad are diametrically opposed. Jesus said: “Love thy neighbour” and Prophet Muhammad said “Hate Christians and Jews because with them you are in bad company” or words to that effect.
I feel that Muslims don’t have a clue on what Jesus represents. Strangely enough, Allah and his Messenger Muhammad had nothing to say about Hindus and Buddhists. I wonder why? Are they considered to be Muslims?
Cinette
I Am the Way the Truth and the Life.
The rest just mislead. I was impressed by Sam_777’s CAF homepage. A very intelligent man. Check it out.
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elwill
Guest
is your link said that unknown number of people were simply murdered for not agreeing with what mohammed said ?
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cathdoki
Guest
I believe it is well documented that it wasn’t a good idea to disagree with mohammed.
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Cinette
Guest
*I have only just seen this and I will read it with care - right now I am exhausted after a very busy day. I notice you have taken great care and time to respond to my posting and am very pleased.
I just want to make one comment (after reading the first sentences of your post). Insofar as heresies are concerned the Church has always battled with this from day one and continues to do so to this day. I think it will always be like this as long as we have human beings on this earth. The good news is that the Church is the guardian of the Truth and will always fight those who try to erode the Truth.
Will come back…
Cinette
*
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Elwill,
Not quite.
Do you have a link that says people peacefully converted to Islam and all of these reports of moving armies of Arabs in conquest mode, murdering anyone who did not have the ‘intellegence’ to freely ‘choose’ Islam is a fantasy?
Actually, from what I have read, it would honestly appear that there are certain countries where being a Christian or having a Bible is cause for persecution and death. Not so much in Egypt, as I have said, but many other countries. So, from that standpoint, not much has really changed - those who do not believe Mohammad are at risk for being killed.
Where I have focused on was your statement that appeared to identify that if given a free choice, people with intellegence chose Islam. Actually, the choice given is: do you want to live by converting or die by remaining as you are? For those Danish cartoonists who chose to point out how Islam has been kidnapped by extreamists and those totally intolerant of the view of others - who were proven correct, by calls for their death for drawing cartoons (here is a link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy )
My approach is to be as fair-minded and even-handed as I can be. History does not present Islam as anything but a religion built on warfare and conquest. Once the conquering has been finished, history then presents tremendous advances in art, literature, music, math and chemistry. From what I have seen, it appears that we are back in warfare and conquest mode.
God bless
Not quite.
Do you have a link that says people peacefully converted to Islam and all of these reports of moving armies of Arabs in conquest mode, murdering anyone who did not have the ‘intellegence’ to freely ‘choose’ Islam is a fantasy?
Actually, from what I have read, it would honestly appear that there are certain countries where being a Christian or having a Bible is cause for persecution and death. Not so much in Egypt, as I have said, but many other countries. So, from that standpoint, not much has really changed - those who do not believe Mohammad are at risk for being killed.
Where I have focused on was your statement that appeared to identify that if given a free choice, people with intellegence chose Islam. Actually, the choice given is: do you want to live by converting or die by remaining as you are? For those Danish cartoonists who chose to point out how Islam has been kidnapped by extreamists and those totally intolerant of the view of others - who were proven correct, by calls for their death for drawing cartoons (here is a link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy )
My approach is to be as fair-minded and even-handed as I can be. History does not present Islam as anything but a religion built on warfare and conquest. Once the conquering has been finished, history then presents tremendous advances in art, literature, music, math and chemistry. From what I have seen, it appears that we are back in warfare and conquest mode.
God bless
S
Steven_John
Guest
Hi, i have only read from the first couple of pages in this thread so what i have to share may have been said.
The text of the bible is written by sinners who desire and are empowered to help us seek G-d.
It is not wise to see all the books as G-ds perfect speech. It opens issues of naive understanding.
In days past people would read the text to say the earth is flat, some were dealt with poorly by those “who had the word”.
Bible literalists are becoming fewer and a new age of understanding is upon us.
It is the spirit that brings truth in our hearts from the word.
For those of us who have English as our language know their are in accuracies in the translation. Ie Jobs family blessing or cursing G-d. But the truth of the book is timeless and true as it inspires in us trust in G-d regardless to what happens. Common to all three religions.
The Hadiths are much later than Mahomed (pbuh) some 300 years. The Quran itself was written on various mediums but compiled much later and is not in order. I have had some tell me that a papiris was said to have been eaten by a goat.
In early Islamic history those people were oppressed by others that held a faith of some 360 gods.
It is believed by most the hand of G-d that delivers oppressed people and gives success. Given the circumstance of these early people and their success i reckon it would be real hard if raised and living as they did not to believe G-d was over them.
Bible stories tell of G-d blessing these people, though different to the people of Israel.
Some where in the bible we should be warned not to argue over words, for me meaning we should have concern over the spirits we allow them to inspire in us.
I have met many loving Christians and Muslims and many of both who seem to me lost.
It was not long ago that Christians killed other Christians for holding differing understanding of the bible.
I think the bible should have offered the books of the bible new and old can be used for good teaching.
What will you do with texts, use them to show the splinter in another eye, or to gently correct and encourage.
So to with the Quran, i watch Muslims and Christians cling to parts warning about Christians and Jews forsaking that it offers not all Christians and Jews are in error.
Clearly Christians and Jews do error who among you can testify that no Jews or Christians that spoke to the first people of Islam were not in error?
Where i live Christians say other Christians are in error, i cant understand how they refute some Christians would not have been in error among those Arabs.
I would encourage you all to use texts for good teaching assuming you have spent some time to understand the individual person that professes to hold to them.
As long as you state your book is wrong and mine is right for the agenda of helping people you maybe less effective. If you want power over people its a good platform for satan to stop you seeing fault in your own self.
Yeshua (pbwh) is narrated to have said of we who are narrated to have crucified him should be forgiven as we did not know what we were doing. Its easy to point the finger at error of others but only the spirit strengthens us to have understanding and love.
Both the Bible and the Quran are images of people seeking G-d the One who is above all and knows all.
I cant attest to either being absolute word for word truth, i dont speak Aramaic, palio Hebrew, Hebrew, Greek and Arabic. I am stuck with English translations. Christians differ on accuracy of the translations and the Quran has three words that it is said no one understands.
You see i dont have blind faith but something living in me that sees you as potential living in G-ds image for perfect man.
From this i see i am blessed to encourage you all to love (verb). My faith is living and growing not something given to me by men that walked before me but a gift from G-d.
It s not for me to be found doing what my parents did but to honor them by seeking truth being open to it, living and sharing it.
Bless you all pray well and stay well.
The text of the bible is written by sinners who desire and are empowered to help us seek G-d.
It is not wise to see all the books as G-ds perfect speech. It opens issues of naive understanding.
In days past people would read the text to say the earth is flat, some were dealt with poorly by those “who had the word”.
Bible literalists are becoming fewer and a new age of understanding is upon us.
It is the spirit that brings truth in our hearts from the word.
For those of us who have English as our language know their are in accuracies in the translation. Ie Jobs family blessing or cursing G-d. But the truth of the book is timeless and true as it inspires in us trust in G-d regardless to what happens. Common to all three religions.
The Hadiths are much later than Mahomed (pbuh) some 300 years. The Quran itself was written on various mediums but compiled much later and is not in order. I have had some tell me that a papiris was said to have been eaten by a goat.
In early Islamic history those people were oppressed by others that held a faith of some 360 gods.
It is believed by most the hand of G-d that delivers oppressed people and gives success. Given the circumstance of these early people and their success i reckon it would be real hard if raised and living as they did not to believe G-d was over them.
Bible stories tell of G-d blessing these people, though different to the people of Israel.
Some where in the bible we should be warned not to argue over words, for me meaning we should have concern over the spirits we allow them to inspire in us.
I have met many loving Christians and Muslims and many of both who seem to me lost.
It was not long ago that Christians killed other Christians for holding differing understanding of the bible.
I think the bible should have offered the books of the bible new and old can be used for good teaching.
What will you do with texts, use them to show the splinter in another eye, or to gently correct and encourage.
So to with the Quran, i watch Muslims and Christians cling to parts warning about Christians and Jews forsaking that it offers not all Christians and Jews are in error.
Clearly Christians and Jews do error who among you can testify that no Jews or Christians that spoke to the first people of Islam were not in error?
Where i live Christians say other Christians are in error, i cant understand how they refute some Christians would not have been in error among those Arabs.
I would encourage you all to use texts for good teaching assuming you have spent some time to understand the individual person that professes to hold to them.
As long as you state your book is wrong and mine is right for the agenda of helping people you maybe less effective. If you want power over people its a good platform for satan to stop you seeing fault in your own self.
Yeshua (pbwh) is narrated to have said of we who are narrated to have crucified him should be forgiven as we did not know what we were doing. Its easy to point the finger at error of others but only the spirit strengthens us to have understanding and love.
Both the Bible and the Quran are images of people seeking G-d the One who is above all and knows all.
I cant attest to either being absolute word for word truth, i dont speak Aramaic, palio Hebrew, Hebrew, Greek and Arabic. I am stuck with English translations. Christians differ on accuracy of the translations and the Quran has three words that it is said no one understands.
You see i dont have blind faith but something living in me that sees you as potential living in G-ds image for perfect man.
From this i see i am blessed to encourage you all to love (verb). My faith is living and growing not something given to me by men that walked before me but a gift from G-d.
It s not for me to be found doing what my parents did but to honor them by seeking truth being open to it, living and sharing it.
Bless you all pray well and stay well.
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Listen, you can start your own post about your belief in no religion. Thats not what this one is about.
And I’m sure if you can look at the very process of thought, and be open minded to it, you’ll have your hands full processing. Start a new topic and follow it a couple days and lets see how the debate stands up.
And I’m sure if you can look at the very process of thought, and be open minded to it, you’ll have your hands full processing. Start a new topic and follow it a couple days and lets see how the debate stands up.
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elwill
Guest
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swariffin
Guest
Who destroyed the first KaBah built by Adam, Angels, Whoever?
It seems to me there is no agreement on who build KaBah at the first time. Who knows that it was only a myth.
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swariffin
Guest
If all man submissive to Allah is Islam, then why Muhammad require you to mention the shahada?
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