Understanding Islamic Views

[Steven_John]

show me the verse which i contradicted it

AsSalum o Alikum,
dear Brother could it be possible what you are asking is answered “ALIF LAAM MEEM”

May Allah bless and guide you and yours

PS I praise and thank Allah for much of your posts they are oft well thought and well constructed and I am at times blessed and warned form them

 

[Steven_John]

*I have met Turkish Muslims who were the sweetest and gentlist people who love and respect. They have gone back to Turkey but I will contact their offices here and talk to them. We socialised a lot and went to some concerts and on one occasion one of the ladies Aisha was saying that she had read the New Testament. These Muslims were far more reasonable. They were loving and I cannot imagine them killing…

*

Peace and blessings Sister,
I too know some very loving Muslims of the Islamic religion that best i can discern are blessed in the spirit.
Their love devotion and kindness put many of us where i live to shame.

When i read Br Ewills post i often feel joy and believe the true spirit to be near.

I have pondered how they can read the Quran and have attributes and actions that reflect the aspirations of Catholics.

Thats why in an earlier post I offered it is the spirit that allows on to fins what they seek in many ancient writings ie 66-72 books of the bible or the Quran.

G-d bless you and yours

PS if any others dont want me speaking in CAF, just block me and save yourself the effort of posting to me.

 

[Cinette]

Peace and blessings Sister,
I too know some very loving Muslims of the Islamic religion that best i can discern are blessed in the spirit.
Their love devotion and kindness put many of us where i live to shame.

When i read Br Ewills post i often feel joy and believe the true spirit to be near.

I have pondered how they can read the Quran and have attributes and actions that reflect the aspirations of Catholics.

Thats why in an earlier post I offered it is the spirit that allows on to fins what they seek in many ancient writings ie 66-72 books of the bible or the Quran.

G-d bless you and yours

PS if any others dont want me speaking in CAF, just block me and save yourself the effort of posting to me.

*You are most welcome always. It is important to discourse and learn about each other.

God bless you brother
Cinette*

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Dear posters,

I hope some of you will find this article interesting. It’s called, “Saudi Muslim Religious Council Condemns Terrorism.” An important development in Saudia Arabia . The most senior religious body in the kingdom has explicitly denounced terrorism.

What a blessing for us Westerners, and especially for Muslims! Some of the most common targets of extremist Muslims are fellow Muslims. The Shia/Sunni religious violence in Iraq is a clear example of this. Extremist sects of Muslims will frequently say that virtually all Muslims outside their own particular version of Islam is an apostate or a heretic, and will try to kill them. Consider the the Muslim vs. Muslim violence in Jordan, or in Egypt, Syria. This violence between Muslims, where government bodies try to put down extremist efforts, is especially obvious in “front line” battle areas like Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq.

If I recall my old research well enough, fellow Muslims are the primary victims of the Muslim extremist groups.

Some Muslim groups and some interpretations of Islam are grave threats to Christians, to Jews, to many Muslims, and to the Western world in general, and especially to the Middle East.

A mistake we Christians often make is that when a bomb goes off in the Middle East and Christians are killed, we think (often correctly), “those fundamentalist Muslims have murdered Christians because of their view of Islam,” but when a bomb goes off and Muslim civilians are killed, we don’t think as much about the fact that we are often witnessing a clear case of Muslims murdering other Muslims, a case where two different understandings of Islam are showing themselves to be clearly in conflict. We judge “Islam” for the murder of the Christians, but when the extremists kill Muslims next, we think “an atrocity is taking place,” without taking into consideration that this too is often a clash over contradictory religious beliefs.

Religion isn’t the only issue spreading conflict among Muslims in the Middle East; there are also economic, social and political reasons for the violence. Religion is an important factor, though, and it is one where there are very real divides in Muslim thought that often are exposed by the clashes between governments and sects, or popular uprisings and Muslim military, or even street battles between different groups. There are a variety of different understandings of jihad, and there is self-defense going on, and reactionary behavior, and a lot of other factors contributing.

I guess what I’m most trying to say is we can’t stereotype or form broad generalizations from a few examples.

Another thing we’d do well to remember, this while considering famdigy’s comments, is that many, many Catholics and Protestants have for centuries believed the same things and behaved in the same way. Here are three key ways in which most Catholics got out of this mindset:

1. We began to discern the spiritual nature of invincible ignorance more carefully. We remembered that many people who believe in heresies or apostasies do so without having the truth effectively exposed to their hearts. They don’t know, deep down, that they are believing the wrong thing. Some do know, or have the sufficient grace to know, but suppress the truth when it comes. These souls are culpable for the sin of heresy or apostasy – which is a very terrible sin, the sin of rejecting God. Others don’t know, and even if they’ve been told the truth, that doesn’t mean they necessarily recognize it as truth and suppress that knowledge. Perhaps through upbringing or their circumstances, or their environment, or any number of other factors, they didn’t know the truth as truth even though they came to understand what we believe and perhaps a number of the reasons why.

So there’s a serious issue of culpability that Catholic theologians went over carefully as we began to look into invincible ignorance and its nature and character, especially after we discovered the New World and realized that for centuries people had been living and dying without an inkling of the truth of the Catholic faith, and with no way of receiving this knowledge. Did God create all of them for Hell, or without any chance of salvation, since there were no missionaries in their lands ever?

That was an issue that really started Catholics thinking more carefully about invincible ignorance. They were no longer dealing with a Catholic-only world, where pretty much every heretic was leaving the Catholic faith and many knew it well. The issue of culpability became more serious. How is it just to punish someone who isn’t actually intentionally rejecting the truth? What about the person who accidentally rejects it?

We are incapable of judging a soul’s culpability for its heresy, so we aren’t in a position where we can wield justice in a fair way, punishing idolaters or heretics as they deserve. Jesus mentioned in a parable that the wheat and tares should be left to grow up together, because if one plucks out the tares early, one might accidentally pluck up wheat along with them. In the same way, if we judged heretics with the force of law without being able to look into their hearts and see their culpability, we could unjustly punish genuine followers of God who are truly seeking Him to the best of their ability, and are following His will insofar as they have the grace to do so.

This was a truth we only gained through reflection, over a long time, as we really looked into invincible ignorance and culpability for sin more carefully.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

During the Early Church, the Fathers generally seem to have supported religious freedom. During the first millennium after that, they continued to generally support religious freedom, though occasionally some of them supported the use of force to block public preaching of falsehood. It was during the second millennium that we started to accept the use of force, and even sometimes the death penalty, to punish heretics or apostates, and this was largely because our scholars researched Roman law and began to dig up some of their old practices. This, combined with the enormous struggles the Church faced in that time from law-breaking heretics in large numbers (particularly the Albigensians). The 20th century popes have restored the Early Church consensus and have backtracked away from some second millennium mistakes.

1. In light of this deeper understanding of culpability, we realized that even the spread of error through evangelism does not always destroy souls that receive it, if those that receive it do so in invincible ignorance. Certainly there is danger in religious error, but . . . let us consider pagans receiving the Muslim faith. The Muslim faith preaches one God, an eternal Creator, a God of love who created man and planned for them to come to Heaven. This God should be worshipped through a life of holiness and piety, prayer, fasting, etc. There are certainly, in our Catholic view, mistakes in the Muslim religion. Yet a pagan who converts to Islam out of a genuine appreciation of the truth he has received (for instance, monotheism, the reality of Heaven, God’s work among Abraham or the patriarchs, or other truths Islam passes on) will be blessed by this, and may find himself in a genuine relationship with God, in Islam, through these lights. Though this soul will have a less complete union with God than is possible in Catholicism.

Even a Catholic who doesn’t know his faith but converts to, say, Protestantism, might be growing closer to God through this choice. If he didn’t practice his faith as a Catholic and didn’t know it well, he could be in invincible ignorance as far as many parts of Catholicism are concerned. Yet if he sees God in Protestantism, the holiness of its members, the Gospel and Salvation teaching, the emphasis on the truth of Scripture, etc., this soul could come closer to God by entering Protestantism. He has done so by entering, in his soul, into deeper intimacy with the fundamentals of Catholicism (which are present in Protestantism too), and by a new love of God and Christ. While outwardly, he is leaving Catholicism, truly, he is coming closer to Catholicism, though where he has gone, the knowledge of the faith and the avenues of grace are less complete.

If a soul leaves Catholicism for Protestantism while not in a state of invincible ignorance – if he knows the truth and suppresses or rejects it – he is damned. If a Muslim leaves Islam for something else – for instance, relativism – because he knows and dislikes elements of the truth that are present in Islam, he is damned. He too has rejected Catholicism without ever knowing or thinking about it. If a Muslim converts to Catholicism because all the Catholics he knows are worldly and he wants a worldly lifestyle, and his examples of Islam have been righteous men, but he doesn’t want to live generously like they do, then he too is damned. For he has rejected Catholicism in his heart, even though outwardly he has joined it.

You see why we can’t judge through civil law on the basis of exterior signs? Anyone who rejects the Catholic Church has no salvation. Yet the Catholic Church’s one truth falls like rain all over the world, even where there are no missionaries present and the fullness is not known. In some places, the rain falls thickly and much grows, while in other places, there is little rainfall and deserts form. Those souls that seize upon the truth they receive and love it are true lovers of the Catholic Church, and they bind themselves to her with spiritual cords through which they will inherit salvation. Those that reject what they receive and are given grace sufficient to know are condemned, for they have rejected the Catholic Church, and in so doing, they have rejected Christ.

If we judge someone who leaves the Catholic Church outwardly, we might accidentally be killing a true follower of Christ. Therefore there we have no way of being sure we are just, when we seek to judge the disposition of souls through civil law.

1. Another reason we turned away from executing people for heresy is that we realized heresy does not always come arm in arm with civil unrest and law-breaking. Historically, our heretics tended to reject Church and State simultaneously, as can be seen in the Hussite rebellion, the Albigensian rebellion and the Protestant rebellion, among others. We remembered this for a long time, until we gradually began to get a better look at communities where law-breaking and heresy did not always come arm in arm.

In view of the fact that we had to go through this rather sophisticated process of theological development to get to where we are today, and we had centuries where many Catholics behaved just as many (but not all) Muslims today are behaving, let’s be cautious about throwing around judgments like, “Islam is evil,” (some interpretations of Islam are, but all?) or, “you are evil,” because famdigy holds the same view many Catholics have held for centuries. Some of those Catholics who accepted the use of the death penalty for heretics were actually canonized saints. They didn’t know that what they accepted was wrong. They didn’t have all the theological development we have the benefit of since the 20th century.

 

[Steven_John]

Peace and blessings Sister,
I too know some very loving Muslims of the Islamic religion that best i can discern are blessed in the spirit.
Their love devotion and kindness put many of us where i live to shame.

When i read Br Ewills post i often feel joy and believe the true spirit to be near.

I have pondered how they can read the Quran and have attributes and actions that reflect the aspirations of Catholics.

Thats why in an earlier post I offered it is the spirit that allows one to find what they seek in many ancient writings ie 66-72 books of the bible or the Quran.

G-d bless you and yours

PS if any others dont want me speaking in CAF, just block me and save yourself the effort of posting to me.

Sorry everyone i need to edit this, i missed half a statement.

I have pondered how they can read the Quran and have attributes and actions that reflect the aspirations of Catholics while others read the same and come away with so much hatred.

Bless you all again sorry

 

[Lief_Erikson]

When i read Br Ewills post i often feel joy and believe the true spirit to be near.

The same here!

famdigy, just to let you know, while I disagree with you and feel absolutely horrible for the people who your beliefs could lead to being unjustly persecuted, I understand where you’re coming from. I can’t judge either my own soul or yours, or anyone else’s. I can only pray and seek that one day we will all be one in the unity of God.

Similar to your explanations about Muslim executions of apostates or heretics, I also used to argue that it could be just to execute apostates or heretics from the Catholic Church. I made an honest mistake, one born (I believe) of invincible ignorance and not of malice. I strongly believe God was moving forcefully in my life throughout that time, in spite of my error.

I accept that God may indeed be close to you and that we may share the same Lord. I honor your sincerity and willingness to speak up for what you believe to be true, in spite of the rebukes you knew you would receive. I respect you, and I’m very glad to have met you .

May God make us all one in the fullness of His Truth.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Sorry everyone i need to edit this, i missed half a statement.

I have pondered how they can read the Quran and have attributes and actions that reflect the aspirations of Catholics while others read the same and come away with so much hatred.

Bless you all again sorry

One might ask the same about Christianity. There are so many different sects of Protestants with a variety of different beliefs, all resulting from different readings of the same book. Some read it and use it to justify abortion. Others, like the Ku Klux Klan, use it to discriminate against non-whites. There are plenty of haters claiming to be Christian, just as there are plenty of haters claiming to be Muslim. There are so many different interpretations one can put on a text! Praise God for the Apostolic Succession, Magesterium and Papacy.

 

[elwill]

Elwill,

I have read and reflected on your link. I probably will add more later.
What I find interesting is that for one to begin a spiritual walk, Islam condemns all other forms of asceticism– means to achieve spiritual life – but that it bases its own spiritual life on MAN. We base our spiritual life on God. It all centers on God…He is the center of our life.

islam dosn’t condemns the asceticism , may be it dosn’t recommned specific ways of it , this one which made you completly separated from the world
So spiritual development should not take the form of a man turning away from this workshop and retreating into a corner.
it dosn’t mean to withdrawing from people and keeping away from society, or fasting constantly.

Muhammad (pbuh) is quoted to have said, “What have I to do with worldly things? My connection with the world is like that of a traveler resting for a while underneath the shade of a tree and then moving on.”
He advised the people to live simple lives and himself practiced great austerities. Even when he had become the virtual king of Arabia, he lived an austere life bordering on privation.

“Asceticism is not that you should not own anything, but that nothing should own you.” -Ali ibn Abi Talib

what did you mean by that islam bases it’s own spiritual life on man while christians bases it on God ?

Secondly, in Islam God gives commands. We recognize that God gave simple commands in His creation of the world. But again, when He created Man, it was not merely creating a man to obey Him, but it was to honor Him through the gift of creation, and cooperating with God in having dominion over all things.

So we do not acknowledge God as someone simply to obey His commands, but to be in relationship with Him. Yes, God gave us the 10 commandments. He gave the Jewish people the Sinai Covenant that many laws and regulations to protect their race and progeny, not for their own exaltation but to bring forth some day the Messiah.

in islam , your relationship with God is dependant on your obdience to him

We like Muslims, seek to do God’s will, as do the Jews. It is all based on faith in God and faith in the life God has given us, and to make good out of it, no matter the circumstances. Just seeking His will is a form of ascetism which Islam prematurely condemns. Considering the 7 times Catholic monks pray a day, and they do live an ascetic life, it looks like Islam is already condemning their spiritual walk.

no , God not condemns who seeking his will , let us say that islam have another view about " how effectivly can you please your God and what is his will "

Both Muslims and Christians seek union with God’s will as perfection. But Christians, through Jesus Christ, see fulfillment of God’s will as loving God with one’s whole heart, soul, and mind, and loving one’s neighbor as one’s self, and forgiving one’s enemies…the focus is on love and treating others the way you want to be treated.

it’s the same in islam

Islam furthers states that the spiritual life is best fulfilled in community. We are the same.

that’s good

The specifics to attain God through Islam, Judaism, Christianity is prayer. Christians can pray to God continually.

we can pray to God continually either

Continual prayer is a Catholic term…it is having one’s will constantly oriented toward God, seeking the will of God. We do not break up prayer into 5 times a day.

salaht of muslims refer to an elaborate formal ritual such as the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy and Roman Catholic Mass

 

[elwill]

continue

We thus cannot judge a person’s outward disposition of where he truly is in God. Christ told us not to shout or pray on street corners or show our devotion by fancy and symbolic clothes like peoples in His times did. Christ also asks we go to our room and close the door to pray to the Father…in this way our reward is in heaven because we are serving God alone, and not for other people’s esteem of us, which is a reward of this earth., This is a prayer form that is continual…we live in God’s presence even as we work in an office or work machinery,…we seek God’s will to be and act in God’s presence, to conform our entire self as we live…be in God’s will and it is life time work.

the same in islam

Third, Muslims are to help their brethren. Christians and Jews do the same. **Christ takes it farther…He says those who love their families…what good is that…he talks of the poor, the widow, again, here our enemies…do good to those who persecute you.
Thus, what is tremendous about Christ the God Man, the Son of Man, is that He re-unites us with all mankind. **

it’s the same with mohammed (pbuh)

Pilgrimage…the ancient Christians would make pilgrimages to the Holy Land in Jerusalem. There have been many times Christians could not make pilgrimages to Jerusalem. Jerusalem/Israel is the origin of our religion and of the Jews.

i doubt of that

Jihad…Muslims are encouraged up to martyrdom to spread Islam. A Muslim spreads Islam through tongue, pen and sword.

may be muslims use the sword to inform about islam and to transmit the massage , not to convert them by it

Christ told Christians many times about choosing Him over the things of this world, over all human ties. He said the criteria was to pick up one’s cross – the acceptance of the difficulties of life, and to follow Him, to be a servant to others. He called us to worship Him, and through Him, be restored to the Father, and to nurture us on His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity through the Eucharist. It is not about triumphing over others, to have power over others, to condemn or to kill others. Jesus is not about killing because it violates the sanctity of all human life.

we have the same teaching

So I think a basic premise between Christianity and Islam is that, although we both seek to be in union with God/Allah, the Christians seeks union through love of God and neighbor – not just Catholics or other Christians.

i think we are not differ than that

I would say Christianity is more focused as well as being in relationship with God as His beloved.

and i would say that islam is practical relegion than that of christianity , our relatioship with God not a song we sings or words we saying , in islam it’s our practices and our deeds and our obdience which determine our relationship with God

 

[elwill]

My question to Muslims:

What were Muhammed’s final words???

this was the last sermon ever be said by mohammed (pbuh)

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your LORD, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. ALLAH has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn 'Abd’al Muttalib (Prophet’s uncle) shall henceforth be waived…

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah’s trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship ALLAH, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before ALLAH and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, NO PROPHET OR APOSTLE WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O ALLAH, that I have conveyed your message to your people".

Did Muhammed say ‘Kill the infidels’? Is that true?

no

Is it true a Muslim martyr will use the sword of Jihad to kill someone because of his beliefs?

Not all Muslims think that…

i think that no muslims think that

False gods always demand the blood of innocents. (Sorry about the added post.)

not neccessery false Gods , sometimes it’s misunderstading or ignorance about the true God

 

[Lief_Erikson]

and i would say that islam is practical relegion than that of christianity , our relatioship with God not a song we sings or words we saying , in islam it’s our practices and our deeds and our obdience which determine our relationship with God

Catholicism is more complete than this. Obedience is required, obedience to the presbyter, to the bishop, to the Magesterium, to the Church’s teachings, as well as to one’s parents or husband, and also to local or national governments. We are also called to practices and deeds that come from the will of God. We are called to a complete surrender of our full lives to God.

We give God faith, love, obedience, prayer, fasts (as required by the Church and possibly beyond), etc. All our thoughts, words and deeds are to be conformed to God’s will. It’s a complete self-giving of our entire selves to God. As Luke 10:27 says, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” Your strength includes all your actions, your mind includes all your thoughts, and your heart and soul includes all the rest of you. You give your whole being to God, all of yourself, all the time. That’s our calling, what we’re working toward, and what some of the canonized saints achieved.

We give our whole selves to God and strive to complete that unity. There are all the practical aspects you mention, but there is also the full interior self-giving, and the practical tends to go much further than the minimum of what the Church requires, among the devout. Indeed, the practical is supposed to go so far that it encompasses all our entire lives all the time.

Though there are lax Catholics and people who don’t obey their Church – to their own spiritual peril.

Our relationship with God is perfected in the Sacraments, which are more than songs and words. They are complete union with God, simultaneously symbol and the reality of what they symbolize.

As we give ourselves fully, completely to God, He gives Himself completely to us. His Life is imparted into our lives through the Sacraments, which are humanity partaking directly of the Divine Life. This Life gives us grace through which we can become conformed more perfectly to the Life of God, especially if we are humble, flexible in the Lord’s hands and open to His graces, rather than set on doing things our own way and living as we want to live.

The Sacraments of Confession and Eucharist are particularly important to us. In Confession, we bathe in full union with God’s Mercy, and if we honestly and sincerely confess, willing to try to change, we will be wiped spotless in an instant. In the Eucharist, we receive full union with God’s Life. We receive His Flesh, Blood, Soul and Divinity, His whole self given to us to transform us into Him so that we are truly godly.

This is just a very quick description of what we experience, but it’s so, so, so, so much more than what you just said, there isn’t any comparison possible. Songs aren’t even worth mentioning as central to our worship. The Sacraments are at the heart of our worship, and through them, Christ transforms our lives so that our whole selves are given over to Him, all the time. We become closer and closer to God, more and more transformed to the point that Christ’s love and light are all that anyone can see in us. Or that’s the goal . We are sinners, but we are working toward perfection.

Faithful Catholics grow over time, as their union with God deepens, to think His thoughts, to listen to people as He listens, to speak to them as He speaks, with love, to act in the ways He acts, to do all things and believe all things in ever deepening harmony with God, aiming for perfection. Only through direct participation in the Life of God in the Sacraments is the height of spiritual growth possible; the Sacraments are a clear road to the heart of God’s Kingdom.

All the faithful work on growing in holiness throughout their lives, aiming for perfection.

May our every thought, word and deed become perfectly joined to God’s will, so that we might rise to Him to be all His, even as He came to Earth to be all ours.

God bless you!

Yours,

Lief

 

[elwill]

*I am pleased to hear that Elwill.

As you know we believe that Christianity replaced Judaism…or rather it added to it as the coming of the Messiah was the fulfillment of the Jewish Faith. Although we believe that we are the one true Church we respect others and believe that the peoples of the 3 great religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - are Monotheistic. There is only one God and although we may have a different name for God we all worship the one God. That is a point of departure, the one thing we have in common. As a Muslim you do not understand or accept that we Christian Catholics believe in one God because you do not understand the mystery of the Trinity. We do not understand it either really and it one of the great mysteries of our Faith and when one reads the inspired Word of God in the Scriptures the Trinity is there. “Go and baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…” (in fact, it can be found in other parts of the scriptures as well…) As someone explained “three centres of consciousness”. We Catholics look at God as our Father. Even Jesus gave us the prayer “Our Father who art in heaven…” That intimacy does not mean there is a lack of respect. No it is an expression of the love we have for our Heavenly Father. The family is so important to society and we develop an intimate relationship with our God through the Holy Family - Mary is our Mother - our heavenly Mother.

We have no way of conceiving what Eternal Life will be like but we know one thing - it must be something absolutely beyond imagination. For our God to take the nature of a human being to come to live and die among us, to teach us how to live our lives, to suffer for us… means that it is very important that we follow Him and His commandments.

Gosh Elwill it is nearly 5 o’clock in the morning and I am getting carried away!! I have a hot bath waiting for me and I must run. Thanks for the conversation.

God bless you
Cinette

you are wellcome anytime , and i appereciate your listnning and your participation

thank you
peace

 

[elwill]

Catholicism is more complete than this. Obedience is required, obedience to the presbyter, to the bishop, to the Magesterium, to the Church’s teachings, as well as to one’s parents or husband, and also to local or national governments. Our practices and deeds must be in harmony with the will of God. We are called to a complete surrender of our full lives to God. We give Him faith, love, obedience, prayer, fasts (as required by the Church and possibly beyond), etc. All our thoughts, words and deeds are to be conformed to God’s will. It’s a complete self-giving of our entire selves to God. As Luke 10:27 says, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” Your strength includes all your actions, your mind includes all your thoughts, and your heart and soul includes all the rest of you. You give your whole being to God, all of yourself, all the time. That’s our calling, what we’re working toward, and what some of the canonized saints achieved.

We give our whole selves to God and strive to complete that conformity. There are all the practical aspects you mention, but there is also the full interior self-giving, and the practical tends to go much further than the minimum of what the Church requires, among the devout.

Though there are lax Catholics and people who don’t obey their Church – to their own spiritual peril.

I should add that our relationship with God is also perfected in the Sacraments, which are more than songs and words. They are complete union with God. As we give ourselves fully, completely to God, He gives Himself completely to us. His Life is imparted into our lives through the Sacraments, which are humanity partaking directly of the Divine Life. This Life gives us grace through which we can become conformed more perfectly to the Life of God, especially if we are humble, flexible in the Lord’s hands and open to His graces, rather than set on doing things our own way and living as we want to live.

The Sacraments of Confession and Eucharist are particularly important to us. In the former, we bathe in full union with God’s Mercy. In the latter, we receive full union with God’s Life. We receive His Flesh, Blood, Soul and Divinity, His whole self given to us to transform us into Him so that we are truly godly.

This is just a very quick description of what we experience, but it’s so, so, so, so much more than what you just said, there isn’t any comparison possible. Songs aren’t even worth mentioning as central to our worship. The Sacraments are at the heart of our worship, and through them, Christ transforms our lives so that our whole selves are given over to Him, all the time. We seek to think His thoughts, to listen to people as He listens, to speak as He speaks, with love, to act as He acts, to do all things and believe all things in perfect harmony with God constantly, all the time. Only through our direct participation in the Life of God in the Sacraments is such lofty union possible.

God bless you!

Yours,

Lief

i think our similarities are musch more than our defferences , may we just lack perfect tools of communication to understand each other effectively

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I added some to that post just now, in editing. Maybe it will help clarify it.

Though I expect my language was still not clear enough. I was trying to deepen the content more than I was trying to clarify it .

Uniting ourselves fully with God through the Sacraments, along with the goal of giving every part of our lives over to God completely, loving Him with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength, and loving our neighbor as ourselves (seeing even our enemies as this neighbor we are to love absolutely), working constantly toward moral perfection without tolerating even sinful thoughts in our minds, much less in our actions . . . To me, these appear to be significant differences between Catholicism and Islam.

The Catholic effort is rooted deep in the Sacraments, which are deep union with the Life of God, for through them, we can become fully one with Him.

 

[elwill]

Dear posters,

I hope some of you will find this article interesting. It’s called, “Saudi Muslim Religious Council Condemns Terrorism.” An important development in Saudia Arabia . The most senior religious body in the kingdom has explicitly denounced terrorism.

What a blessing for us Westerners, and especially for Muslims! Some of the most common targets of extremist Muslims are fellow Muslims. The Shia/Sunni religious violence in Iraq is a clear example of this. Extremist sects of Muslims will frequently say that virtually all Muslims outside their own particular version of Islam is an apostate or a heretic, and will try to kill them. Consider the the Muslim vs. Muslim violence in Jordan, or in Egypt, Syria. This violence between Muslims, where government bodies try to put down extremist efforts, is especially obvious in “front line” battle areas like Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq.

If I recall my old research well enough, fellow Muslims are the primary victims of the Muslim extremist groups.

Some Muslim groups and some interpretations of Islam are grave threats to Christians, to Jews, to many Muslims, and to the Western world in general, and especially to the Middle East.

A mistake we Christians often make is that when a bomb goes off in the Middle East and Christians are killed, we think (often correctly), “those fundamentalist Muslims have murdered Christians because of their view of Islam,” but when a bomb goes off and Muslim civilians are killed, we don’t think as much about the fact that we are often witnessing a clear case of Muslims murdering other Muslims, a case where two different understandings of Islam are showing themselves to be clearly in conflict. We judge “Islam” for the murder of the Christians, but when the extremists kill Muslims next, we think “an atrocity is taking place,” without taking into consideration that this too is often a clash over contradictory religious beliefs.

Religion isn’t the only issue spreading conflict among Muslims in the Middle East; there are also economic, social and political reasons for the violence. Religion is an important factor, though, and it is one where there are very real divides in Muslim thought that often are exposed by the clashes between governments and sects, or popular uprisings and Muslim military, or even street battles between different groups. There are a variety of different understandings of jihad, and there is self-defense going on, and reactionary behavior, and a lot of other factors contributing.

I guess what I’m most trying to say is we can’t stereotype or form broad generalizations from a few examples.

Another thing we’d do well to remember, this while considering famdigy’s comments, is that many, many Catholics and Protestants have for centuries believed the same things and behaved in the same way. Here are three key ways in which most Catholics got out of this mindset:

1. We began to discern the spiritual nature of invincible ignorance more carefully. We remembered that many people who believe in heresies or apostasies do so without having the truth effectively exposed to their hearts. They don’t know, deep down, that they are believing the wrong thing. Some do know, or have the sufficient grace to know, but suppress the truth when it comes. These souls are culpable for the sin of heresy or apostasy – which is a very terrible sin, the sin of rejecting God. Others don’t know, and even if they’ve been told the truth, that doesn’t mean they necessarily recognize it as truth and suppress that knowledge. Perhaps through upbringing or their circumstances, or their environment, or any number of other factors, they didn’t know the truth as truth even though they came to understand what we believe and perhaps a number of the reasons why.

So there’s a serious issue of culpability that Catholic theologians went over carefully as we began to look into invincible ignorance and its nature and character, especially after we discovered the New World and realized that for centuries people had been living and dying without an inkling of the truth of the Catholic faith, and with no way of receiving this knowledge. Did God create all of them for Hell, or without any chance of salvation, since there were no missionaries in their lands ever?

That was an issue that really started Catholics thinking more carefully about invincible ignorance. They were no longer dealing with a Catholic-only world, where pretty much every heretic was leaving the Catholic faith and many knew it well. The issue of culpability became more serious. How is it just to punish someone who isn’t actually intentionally rejecting the truth? What about the person who accidentally rejects it?

We are incapable of judging a soul’s culpability for its heresy, so we aren’t in a position where we can wield justice in a fair way, punishing idolaters or heretics as they deserve. Jesus mentioned in a parable that the wheat and tares should be left to grow up together, because if one plucks out the tares early, one might accidentally pluck up wheat along with them. In the same way, if we judged heretics with the force of law without being able to look into their hearts and see their culpability, we could unjustly punish genuine followers of God who are truly seeking Him to the best of their ability, and are following His will insofar as they have the grace to do so.

This was a truth we only gained through reflection, over a long time, as we really looked into invincible ignorance and culpability for sin more carefully.

well said

 

[Cinette]

Dear posters,

I hope some of you will find this article interesting. It’s called, “Saudi Muslim Religious Council Condemns Terrorism.” An important development in Saudia Arabia . The most senior religious body in the kingdom has explicitly denounced terrorism.

What a blessing for us Westerners, and especially for Muslims! Some of the most common targets of extremist Muslims are fellow Muslims. The Shia/Sunni religious violence in Iraq is a clear example of this. Extremist sects of Muslims will frequently say that virtually all Muslims outside their own particular version of Islam is an apostate or a heretic, and will try to kill them. Consider the the Muslim vs. Muslim violence in Jordan, or in Egypt, Syria. This violence between Muslims, where government bodies try to put down extremist efforts, is especially obvious in “front line” battle areas like Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq. …
…

We are incapable of judging a soul’s culpability for its heresy, so we aren’t in a position where we can wield justice in a fair way, punishing idolaters or heretics as they deserve. Jesus mentioned in a parable that the wheat and tares should be left to grow up together, because if one plucks out the tares early, one might accidentally pluck up wheat along with them. In the same way, if we judged heretics with the force of law without being able to look into their hearts and see their culpability, we could unjustly punish genuine followers of God who are truly seeking Him to the best of their ability, and are following His will insofar as they have the grace to do so.

This was a truth we only gained through reflection, over a long time, as we really looked into invincible ignorance and culpability for sin more carefully.

*This post is full of truth and wisdom and we should read it more than once. Lief Erikson illustrates exactly why it is important not to judge (something we are all inclined to do). We cannot see into the hearts of others - we can see their actions but we do not know their circumstances, we do not know the extent of their ignorance. Only God can know exactly the heart of a person and for this reason only God is the Judge.

Muslims can learn this one lesson from Christians - love and forgiveness. We are taught not to harbour resentment and to look for the good always. If we harbour grudges this will only harm us more as each grudge is a heavy burden*. My husband and I suffered a great loss through another person who did bad things to us. We realised that the only way we could survive was to forgive that person. It was easier than we thought and it was only through God’s help.

The world would be a better place if we all loved one another. This does not mean that we need to feel tender feelings towards others (there are people who are difficult to like) but that we care for each other, that we extend a helping hand. We should not allow anyone to suffer unnecessarily. We need to share with others and try to ease the suffering of others.

Thank you Lief Erikson - what a joy to have you on the thread.

Cinette

 

[elwill]

AsSalum o Alikum,
dear Brother could it be possible what you are asking is answered “ALIF LAAM MEEM”

May Allah bless and guide you and yours

PS I praise and thank Allah for much of your posts they are oft well thought and well constructed and I am at times blessed and warned form them

i appereciate your efforts to maintain the argument peacefull and remove the tension within it
it’s very kind and rightious reaction from you , i fell comfortable while reading your posts

thank you for your compliment .

 

[cathdoki]

continue

the same in islam

it’s the same with mohammed (pbuh)

i doubt of that

may be muslims use the sword to inform about islam and to transmit the massage , not to convert them by it

we have the same teaching

i think we are not differ than that

and i would say that islam is practical relegion than that of christianity , our relatioship with God not a song we sings or words we saying , in islam it’s our practices and our deeds and our obdience which determine our relationship with God

Elwil,

I’m amazed at how you state what you want, then tell people that they don’t know what they are talking about. It’s the other way around. I just read this post and I’m rolling on the floor laughing.

 

[cathdoki]

Thank you for the article Lief Erikson. I was very surprised and impressed. I’m disappointed that it has not gotten widespread media attention, since we in the West continually ask for this kind of statement.