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Lief_Erikson
Guest
I, for one, would be very interested in knowing the source for this document. I’d be curious to know how genuine it is.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Yes, I would like to know if it is authentic as well.
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jakasaki
Guest
I just spent more time searching the web and still did not find any islamic sources on this document
There are many islamic forums discussing it and claiming it’s not real, but that is just about it.
Besides the wiki pages on the document, I did find this site.
Don’t know how valid the info is, but it was worth the read:
egeriaproject.net/mov_display.aspx?id=161
Scroll.
Document no 4. Authorised Turkish copy of the original Arabic text of July 7, 623 AD / Muharram 3, 2 Hijra. Paper on textile. 70.4 x 38.1 cm. Good condition. Chania, Crete. 1858.
The textile covers the outer edges of the document.
Horizontal splits run through the scroll.
The prophet Mohamed, according to the Sinaitic tradition, has visited the Holy Monastery and had met the Sinaitic Fathers during his commercial travels, while in the Koran he commemorates the sacred sites of Sinai.
According the tradition itself, in the second year of the Hegira, in 623 AD, the Sinaitic Fathers, hurried and send a delegation to Medina to ask for political protection.
The Prophet, responding to this demand, gave a “handwritten obligation / Testament (Achtiname)”, attested with the print of his own palm. Official copies of the Testament are preserved today both at the Sacristy of the Monastery and to several of its monastery dependencies outside Sinai and mainly in Greece, even at Mount Athos.
When in 1517 Sultan Selim I occupied Egypt he confirmed the Monastery’s privileges, but he kept the original (Achtiname) document in the royal treasury in Constantinople since it had the handwritten verification of Mohammed, and he left an attested copy to the Monastery.
The Holy Monastery of Sinai with the presence of the Achiname was held in great esteem and was respected by the Muslims, as testified by its survival, being there from the 7th century. Especially the bodily contact of a Muslim with the Achiname was considered a great blessing.
At the same time, the presence of official copies of the same text constituted a shield for the monastery dependencies that were in Muslim areas protecting them for any arbitrariness of the representatives of Muslim authority.
There are many islamic forums discussing it and claiming it’s not real, but that is just about it.
Besides the wiki pages on the document, I did find this site.
Don’t know how valid the info is, but it was worth the read:
egeriaproject.net/mov_display.aspx?id=161
Scroll.
Document no 4. Authorised Turkish copy of the original Arabic text of July 7, 623 AD / Muharram 3, 2 Hijra. Paper on textile. 70.4 x 38.1 cm. Good condition. Chania, Crete. 1858.
The textile covers the outer edges of the document.
Horizontal splits run through the scroll.
The prophet Mohamed, according to the Sinaitic tradition, has visited the Holy Monastery and had met the Sinaitic Fathers during his commercial travels, while in the Koran he commemorates the sacred sites of Sinai.
According the tradition itself, in the second year of the Hegira, in 623 AD, the Sinaitic Fathers, hurried and send a delegation to Medina to ask for political protection.
The Prophet, responding to this demand, gave a “handwritten obligation / Testament (Achtiname)”, attested with the print of his own palm. Official copies of the Testament are preserved today both at the Sacristy of the Monastery and to several of its monastery dependencies outside Sinai and mainly in Greece, even at Mount Athos.
When in 1517 Sultan Selim I occupied Egypt he confirmed the Monastery’s privileges, but he kept the original (Achtiname) document in the royal treasury in Constantinople since it had the handwritten verification of Mohammed, and he left an attested copy to the Monastery.
The Holy Monastery of Sinai with the presence of the Achiname was held in great esteem and was respected by the Muslims, as testified by its survival, being there from the 7th century. Especially the bodily contact of a Muslim with the Achiname was considered a great blessing.
At the same time, the presence of official copies of the same text constituted a shield for the monastery dependencies that were in Muslim areas protecting them for any arbitrariness of the representatives of Muslim authority.
E
elwill
Guest
muslimmedianetwork.com/mmn/?tag=muhammad-ibn-abdullahI have been searching the net to find islamic sources with regarding this document and it’s nowhere to be found…
Perhaps that is why they ignore it… because they don’t know about it…
islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=DW0603-2948
rasoulallah.net/v2/document.aspx?lang=en&doc=7605
altmuslim.com/a/a/a/3489
islamonline.com/gulf-jobs/news/newsfull.php?newid=318697
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benedictus2
Guest
How does one reconcile so called “benign” teachings when the Quran has so many that contradict this?I have been searching the net to find islamic sources with regarding this document and it’s nowhere to be found…
Perhaps that is why they ignore it… because they don’t know about it…
Was Muhammad a man diviided within himself?
Also what does one make of the claim that Muhammad was convinced that when these 'visions" first appeared they were from the devil but his wife convinced him otherwise.
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Cinette
Guest
*The only person who can help you find the source of this document is the poster himself…surely!I just spent more time searching the web and still did not find any islamic sources on this document
There are many islamic forums discussing it and claiming it’s not real, but that is just about it.
Besides the wiki pages on the document, I did find this site.
Don’t know how valid the info is, but it was worth the read:
egeriaproject.net/mov_display.aspx?id=161
Scroll.
Document no 4. Authorised Turkish copy of the original Arabic text of July 7, 623 AD / Muharram 3, 2 Hijra. Paper on textile. 70.4 x 38.1 cm. Good condition. Chania, Crete. 1858.
The textile covers the outer edges of the document.
Horizontal splits run through the scroll.
The prophet Mohamed, according to the Sinaitic tradition, has visited the Holy Monastery and had met the Sinaitic Fathers during his commercial travels, while in the Koran he commemorates the sacred sites of Sinai.
According the tradition itself, in the second year of the Hegira, in 623 AD, the Sinaitic Fathers, hurried and send a delegation to Medina to ask for political protection.
The Prophet, responding to this demand, gave a “handwritten obligation / Testament (Achtiname)”, attested with the print of his own palm. Official copies of the Testament are preserved today both at the Sacristy of the Monastery and to several of its monastery dependencies outside Sinai and mainly in Greece, even at Mount Athos.
When in 1517 Sultan Selim I occupied Egypt he confirmed the Monastery’s privileges, but he kept the original (Achtiname) document in the royal treasury in Constantinople since it had the handwritten verification of Mohammed, and he left an attested copy to the Monastery.
The Holy Monastery of Sinai with the presence of the Achiname was held in great esteem and was respected by the Muslims, as testified by its survival, being there from the 7th century. Especially the bodily contact of a Muslim with the Achiname was considered a great blessing.
At the same time, the presence of official copies of the same text constituted a shield for the monastery dependencies that were in Muslim areas protecting them for any arbitrariness of the representatives of Muslim authority.
*
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famdigy
Guest
The point I was making is that the church has no legal authority to permit or deny Muslim immigration and building of mosques because the legal system in place is a secular system.
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famdigy
Guest
sure why not, I put forward Imam Ali’s (as) letter to his governor in Egypt to Malik Al-Ashtar as the basis for the teachings of Islam on contemporary politics. Although written over 1400 years ago it remains relevant to our times.
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famdigy
Guest
I agree God is the ultimate judge and God according to our belief has legislated capital punishment for those who publicly declare themselves as apostates. We are agents of God on the earth and are responsible to implement his decree. We as a society are not in the business of determining what’s in people’s hearts.Cinette
- No earthly man can condemn another for apostasy - THAT IS GOD’S role. God is the sole judge of our eternal souls and he is merciful. God understands our circumstances and he judges us fairly and mercifully. No human being on this earth can take the place of God and make such judgments on another human being. We are free to choose. Even then, God will not condemn us if we make the wrong choice through certain circumstances.
If a person is an apostate and keeps it to himself, God is his Judge. But when that person makes a public declaration of his apostasy, then he has laid a duty on society to respond.
Typically a sane male Muslim who apostatized gets several opportunities to think about it and change his mind.
Also, it’s not up to us as individuals to seek out apostates and punish them. This is left to the system provided the society is governed by Islamic law.
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famdigy
Guest
We’re not in the business of reading into people’s hearts. If a person apostasies and keeps it to himself, then God is his Judge. But when that person publicly declares his apostasy then it’s up to the rest of society to uphold God’s laws with a measured response.
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benedictus2
Guest
Can I ask you what the “measured” response to apostasy is?
Also, as a society, how can we punish apostasy when there are so many religions on earth? The only relatively homogenous countries are Arabic countries. Should Christians, Hindus, Jews, punish those who convert to Islam accordingly as well and in the same measure that Muslims punish those who apostasize?
If Muslims are so concerned about the purity of their faith, why do they migrate to Western countries?
The irony as well with the wearing of burqa in western societies. Isn’t it meant to preserve the eyes of the men from beholding such feminine allure? And yet they freely behold non-burqa wearing westerners?
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famdigy
Guest
No it’s not. The concept of death penalty for apostasy is viewed with respect to a state constructed on a religion and the authority of it’s principles rather than the authority of people or individuals.
In this view, apostasy is compared to treason. You still havn’t answered my question about why non-political or military matters are sometimes included in the definition of treason.
For your benefit, here’s a brief description of Treason in the UK:
“Under the law of the United Kingdom, high treason is the crime of disloyalty to the sovereign amounting to an intention to undermine their authority, or the attempt to do so. Offences constituting high treason include plotting the murder of the sovereign; having sexual intercourse with the sovereign’s consort, with his eldest unmarried daughter, or with the wife of the heir to the throne;”
In other words, diluting the royal bloodline is considered Treason. The intention to undermine the authority of the sovereign is also Treason.
We believe God is the greatest sovereign and His authority and constitution are the most sacred.
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famdigy
Guest
That’s not correct. Islam is like an institution with many disciples not unlike an educational institution where they offer religious, scientific, economic and political disciples as part of their curriculum.
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Kitsune633
Guest
I have been told Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, but as I have read, I have found nothing but intolerance and barbarism in your religion. Peace? Peace in Islamic terms, you Sunnis and Shi’a’s bickering about who is the rightful descendant of Muhammed. Of course, more examples of your religion of “peace”: Copts get persecutted in Egypt, churches are bombed in Iraq, Kurds leave Islam because the Iraqi Arabs even after Saddam Hussein still persecute any Christian, and even Muslims who are Sunni and Shia. Muslims who come to Western countries demand Sharia to be placed and enforced, why do you even migrate to Western countries? To take over it? Oh yeah, because Islam is divided in two Houses. Dhar al Salaam (The House of Peace) and Dhar al Khufir (The House of the Infidel) do you Muslims want to install Islamic governments in every single country where non-Muslims are the majority? Do you Famdigy support Hizbollah? Do you as a Muslim support the death of every single Jew wherever you are? Do you Shi’a Muslim support the fatwas of the madman Khomeini? Do you as a Muslim believe in persecutting every Christian around the world?
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famdigy
Guest
Apostasy (Irtidad) is of two typesCan I ask you what the “measured” response to apostasy is?
Also, as a society, how can we punish apostasy when there are so many religions on earth? The only relatively homogenous countries are Arabic countries. Should Christians, Hindus, Jews, punish those who convert to Islam accordingly as well and in the same measure that Muslims punish those who apostasize?
If Muslims are so concerned about the purity of their faith, why do they migrate to Western countries?
The irony as well with the wearing of burqa in western societies. Isn’t it meant to preserve the eyes of the men from beholding such feminine allure? And yet they freely behold non-burqa wearing westerners?
- Murtad Fitri (apostate from nature). This person’s parents are both Muslims and was raided as a Muslim but later renounced his Muslim faith.
- Murtad Milli (apostate from religion). This person converted to Islam from another religion and then renounced his new Muslim faith.
The Murtad Milli is granted a reprieve and his repentance is accepted if he repents and returns to Islam.
It’s not up to us as individuals to seek out apostates and punish them, this is left to the system in a Muslim country which upholds Islamic law.
Secondly, migration and apostasy are two mutually exclusive matters. Migration is permissible for Muslims to protect their religion and well being from oppression in their native countries.
The early Muslims migrated to Ethiopia and were granted amnesty by the Christian king Nejashi.
Ironically, one of the Muslims who migrated to Ethiopia eventually apostatized to Christianity and married an Ethiopian Christian woman.
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famdigy
Guest
Honestly, I can practice Islam more freely here in the west than I can in my native country and I’m great-full for that. I have Jewish and Christian personal friends. I don’t support Hizbollah or Khomeini even though they are from among the Shia.
Hizbollah is a political party and Khomini is a heretic who invented the concept of “guardianship of the Jurist”
The only Islamic government Twelvers unanimously recognize is the Government of the Infallible Imam Al-Mahdi (as). In his absence, we believe learned scholars should stay out of politics and serve the community in other ways.
We don’t support the persecution of Christians or the vilification of Jews. Imam Ali (as) taught us that those who are not our brothers in faith are our brothers in humanity.
On the other hand do believe the death penalty for apostasy is valid in principal because we have substantial evidence for it in the Qur’an and hadith of the Imams.
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Kitsune633
Guest
Then explain to me Famdigy the persecution of Christians and Jews in Iran, the president of Iran blames Jews for everything, so does Islam, the Quran, it is written in that…Book that Muslims are not to take Jews and Christians as friends, so therefore, you contradict that Book of yours. It says to strike their heads off whenever they are found. How can Khomeini be a heretic when he is a Shi’a just like you. How can that sackful of fleas be a heretic? If you don’t as you said support the villainfication of Jews, why does every Muslim country villainfy Israel? Israel has a right to EXIST, just like the Islamic Republic of Iran, or the UAE, or Saudi Arabia, tell me, do you believe the State of Israel has a right to exist or are you like all the Muslims who say “Oh boo hoo Palestinian land has been stolen.”
But yet you believe in death for apostasy. In my Holy Book, Jesus or Isa in your language said that God shall judge us, not men. So therefore, you judge men, judging is for God/Allah only, how can you know what’s in a person’s heart? How can you the Muslim know what’s in a person’s heart? How come when a Muslim leaves his religiom, he has to die? What kind of religion is Islam? A religion of peace? Is it a religion of peace in a universal sense? If a Muslim wants to leave his religion, what the hell is their problem? Allah can only judge people’s hearts, not you with your religious police who mutilate and enforce laws made by El-Shaitan.
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Cinette
Guest
People have been forced to convert to Islam or else!! in various parts of the world.
/I]
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benedictus2
Guest
Would you say then that Islam is a very cruel religion. As far as I know, it is the only religion that executes apostates.
I know that.
I don’t get that. If you are a Muslim and if you want practice your faith does it not stand to reason that the easiest way to do that would be to remain in your Muslim country where it is the main religion?
- Status