Understanding Mormonism

[theidler]

To any Mormon on here who wishes to answer (I posted it on another thread as well, but it remains unanswered) - I think it fits with the general idea of this thread, and will really help to anchor all these discussions of Mormonism on a firmer foundation instead of an endless stream of dodges and circular arguments…Now:

You accept that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and all that followed from him. Now, what are the specific reasons why you do not accept the following the prophets who also claim divine revelation? What are your criteria for not accepting them?

1. Mohammed and the Qur’an
   -Why is he not credible? The Qur’an claims to be the truth in its very pages, just as your scriptures do. Why are they not true? How do we know that Mohammed is not God’s final messenger to mankind?
2. Ellen G. White
   -Why is she not credible?> She too claims that she had visions of God and heaven, and even the end of the world. She started her own movement, the Seventh-Day Adventists. Why are they wrong, and how do you know? Why are you not a member of the SDA church that claims to be the remnant church of Christ on earth?
3. Herbert W. Armstrong
   -Started the Worldwide Church of God movement and claimed to be a prophet, indeed, a kind of latter-day Elijah. Why are his prophecies wrong? Why is the Church of God movement not the true church? Why are you not a believer in Armstrong’s prophecies and teachings?
4. George Fox
   -Founded the Quaker movement. How do you know that his mystical experiences were erroneous? Why are you not a Quaker?
5. Charles Taze Russell
   -Started the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Claimed to be a mouthpiece for Christ. Why are you not JW, as they decried the doctrine of the Trinity as well, and claimed to be the true church too? On what grounds do you reject Russell and his movement?
6. Emanuel Swedenborg
   Esoteric visionary, theologian, and mystic who claimed all sorts of new teachings. Why is he not credible? Why are you not a member of the Swedenborgian church? Are his visions false, and if so, how do you know?

Also, what do you think of the LDS groups that split from the main church? Why do you not follow any of their teachings, as some of them have prophets still claiming to speak to God, apostles, and the like. Why are they not credible, specifically? What criteria do you use to evaluate why they are not correct and your church is?

 

[KathleenGee]

‘Lying for the Lord’ to gain converts should not be tolerated by Christian believers, because lying is the work of the devil.

 

[batman1973]

-]/-]

To any Mormon on here who wishes to answer (I posted it on another thread as well, but it remains unanswered) - I think it fits with the general idea of this thread, and will really help to anchor all these discussions of Mormonism on a firmer foundation instead of an endless stream of dodges and circular arguments…Now:

You accept that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and all that followed from him. Now, what are the specific reasons why you do not accept the following the prophets who also claim divine revelation? What are your criteria for not accepting them?

1. Mohammed and the Qur’an
   -Why is he not credible? The Qur’an claims to be the truth in its very pages, just as your scriptures do. Why are they not true? How do we know that Mohammed is not God’s final messenger to mankind?
2. Ellen G. White
   -Why is she not credible?> She too claims that she had visions of God and heaven, and even the end of the world. She started her own movement, the Seventh-Day Adventists. Why are they wrong, and how do you know? Why are you not a member of the SDA church that claims to be the remnant church of Christ on earth?
3. Herbert W. Armstrong
   -Started the Worldwide Church of God movement and claimed to be a prophet, indeed, a kind of latter-day Elijah. Why are his prophecies wrong? Why is the Church of God movement not the true church? Why are you not a believer in Armstrong’s prophecies and teachings?
4. George Fox
   -Founded the Quaker movement. How do you know that his mystical experiences were erroneous? Why are you not a Quaker?
5. Charles Taze Russell
   -Started the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Claimed to be a mouthpiece for Christ. Why are you not JW, as they decried the doctrine of the Trinity as well, and claimed to be the true church too? On what grounds do you reject Russell and his movement?
6. Emanuel Swedenborg
   Esoteric visionary, theologian, and mystic who claimed all sorts of new teachings. Why is he not credible? Why are you not a member of the Swedenborgian church? Are his visions false, and if so, how do you know?

Also, what do you think of the LDS groups that split from the main church? Why do you not follow any of their teachings, as some of them have prophets still claiming to speak to God, apostles, and the like. Why are they not credible, specifically? What criteria do you use to evaluate why they are not correct and your church is?

If I may, I’ll take a whack at it. The reason any of the Latter Day Saint churches only follow themselves and not others is the issue of “Authority” Each group claims that only they have the “Proper Authority” to speak and work on behalf of thier God. To any Restored Gospel church, Any of those founders you mentioned did not have the authority to bring about the restoration of ancient truths. And how does one “know” that thiers is the “One, True, Church”? They rely a “testimony” of the “Holy Ghost”

 

[TexanKnight]

-]/-]

If I may, I’ll take a whack at it. The reason any of the Latter Day Saint churches only follow themselves and not others is the issue of “Authority” Each group claims that only they have the “Proper Authority” to speak and work on behalf of thier God. To any Restored Gospel church, Any of those founders you mentioned did not have the authority to bring about the restoration of ancient truths. And how does one “know” that thiers is the “One, True, Church”? They rely a “testimony” of the “Holy Ghost”

Yes, but all CLAIM the authority that LDS claim they have. So, we are back to why not accept the others? They are all pretty much the same regarding how they came to be and what they claim.

 

[theidler]

-]/-]

If I may, I’ll take a whack at it. The reason any of the Latter Day Saint churches only follow themselves and not others is the issue of “Authority” Each group claims that only they have the “Proper Authority” to speak and work on behalf of thier God. To any Restored Gospel church, Any of those founders you mentioned did not have the authority to bring about the restoration of ancient truths. And how does one “know” that thiers is the “One, True, Church”? They rely a “testimony” of the “Holy Ghost”

I almost fell off my chair when I saw a response to my questions…then I realized it was not given by a Mormon…I mean, it’s awesome:thumbsup: that you gave a shot at answering it, I just really want an actual Mormon response to those questions.

 

[David]

Evangelizing Mormons

You can listen to Former Mormon, Thomas Smith speak on Mormonism by clicking on the calender on Monday Jan 23.

Peace
David

 

[HonoraDominum]

Before we get to the long part:

Were you taught, as I was, that once a week or so the prophet goes into the Holy of Holies in the SLC temple and sits down with Jesus for a lengthy chat?

I was! I was just thinking that when I read this. I also remember being taught that no one is allowed in the “Holy of Holies” except for the Prophet … and the cleaning crew. :doh2:

To understand the Latter-day Saint doctrine of God, you have to understand the following passage from Brigham Young (one of our prophets):

Ooh, are we quoting Brigham Young? :newidea: I’m in!

LDS Prophet Brigham Young on the blood of Christ

There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . .
Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247; see also, vol. 4, p. 53-54, 219-220

LDS Prophet Brigham Young on polygamy

Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned.
Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266

The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.
Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269

LDS Prophet Brigham Young on the annunciation

When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it.
Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 218

The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.
Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115

I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.
Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 51

LDS Prophet Brigham Young on blacks and the Mormon "Priesthood"

I tell you, this people that are commonly called negroes are the children of old Cain. I know they are, I know that THEY CANNOT BEAR RULE IN THE PRIESTHOOD, for the curse on them was to REMAIN upon them, until the resedue (sic) of the posterity of Michal (sic) and his wife receive the blessings…and hold the keys of the priesthood… In the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH THE AFFRICANS (sic) CANNOT HOLD ONE PARTICAL (sic) OF POWER IN GOVERNMENT [within the LDS church].
Brigham Young Addresses, Ms d 1234, Box 48, folder 3, Feb. 5, 1852

How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will REMAIN UPON THEM, and THEY NEVER CAN HOLD THE PRIESTHOOD or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam’s children are brought up to that favourable position, THE CHILDREN OF CAIN CANNOT RECEIVE THE FIRST ORDINANCES OF THE PRIESTHOOD. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion.
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pp. 290-291, 1859

LDS Prophet Brigham Young on the nature of Adam and God

Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken – He [Adam] is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later.
Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50

And of course none of these are wrong. Why? Because he said so.

I am here to answer. I shall be on hand to answer when I am called upon, for all the counsel and for all the instruction that I have given to this people. If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason.

Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 161

 

[Prague]

Holy Moly!!!

 

[HonoraDominum]

Very gruntled ex-Mormon, btw. Blessed be God for the grace of conversion that he so generously gave me. Although my poor soul did so much to offend him, he condescended to offer Himself to me anyway. I pray every day for the conversion of souls, especially those who have been deceived by the lies of the LDS church. Carmelite Saint Edith Stein (Teresa Benedicta) and Carmelite Father Augustin of the Blessed Sacrament were both converts, and I pray often to them that they may intercede for those whose soul is blinded by the scandalous doctrines that have led many away from the true and living Savior. Virgo Potens, ora pro nobis.

 

[theidler]

Very gruntled ex-Mormon, btw. Blessed be God for the grace of conversion that he so generously gave me. Although my poor soul did so much to offend him, he condescended to offer Himself to me anyway. I pray every day for the conversion of souls, especially those who have been deceived by the lies of the LDS church. Carmelite Saint Edith Stein (Teresa Benedicta) and Carmelite Father Augustin of the Blessed Sacrament were both converts, and I pray often to them that they may intercede for those whose soul is blinded by the scandalous doctrines that have led many away from the true and living Savior. Virgo Potens, ora pro nobis.

Blessed be God friend. I am on my way home too from Adventism and some very dark isms as well. Jesus, have mercy on us.

 

[batman1973]

I almost fell off my chair when I saw a response to my questions…then I realized it was not given by a Mormon…I mean, it’s awesome:thumbsup: that you gave a shot at answering it, I just really want an actual Mormon response to those questions.

Sorry. Former Mormon, I grew up a Mormon, then became a born again Fundamentalist, then, joined the RLDS, the The Church of Jesus Christ(a more “Pentacostal” Book of Mormon Church) Then The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (one of the RLDS “break away” factions) before leaving again, now hoping to unite with Christ’s True Church, the Holy Catholic Church.

 

[batman1973]

Yes, but all CLAIM the authority that LDS claim they have. So, we are back to why not accept the others? They are all pretty much the same regarding how they came to be and what they claim.

Oh, I understand what your saying, but as you know, having been in that mess yourself, that’s how they justify themselves, and can reject the claims of others, beacuse of their so called “Proper Authority”. That’s one of the big catch words in all of the Joe Smith religions. Since they have this “authority” then the Latter Day saints dont need Ellen White, Mary Baker Eddy, or Charles T. Russel. I imagine that in thier own way, these groups want what only the Catholic Church has: True God given authority, given from Jesus to St. Peter, and down in a pure unbroken line.