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BDawg
Guest
No, I didn’t know. Can you provide a reference?
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PaulDupre
Guest
Google “overshadow possess” and you’ll find several articles on possession in which possession is still called “overshadowing”. The term is not used as often these days except by those who still practice ancient forms of shamanism, but in ancient times it was used commonly.
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BDawg
Guest
Supposing it’s true that prophets walk and talk with God, does that make them omniscient? I mean, the ancient apostles walked and talked with God (Jesus), but he didn’t directly answer every question they asked. Some of his answers were downright cryptic. In fact, they seemed downright confused a lot of the time.
I have to admit that it is kind of amusing to watch the lawyer at work. In fact, I believe I have answered everything you have brought up. Perhaps you don’t agree with my answers, or you think they aren’t good enough, but at least I’ve tried to give honest answers–even when it means admitting that LDS prophets have said some things that may have been speculative, or even flatly wrong. But when I bring up similar issues within Catholicism for the purpose of convincing some of you that you’re being overly harsh on Mormons, you refuse to address them–because I’M THE ONE who is supposedly dodging… something.
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TexanKnight
Guest
Supposing it’s true that prophets walk and talk with God, does that make them omniscient? I mean, the ancient apostles walked and talked with God (Jesus), but he didn’t directly answer every question they asked. Some of his answers were downright cryptic. In fact, they seemed downright confused a lot of the time.
Again, nice try. A prophet should not confuse people. BY was either lying or wrong, either way…no prophet.
I have to admit that it is kind of amusing to watch the lawyer at work.
Ah…back to the LDS personal attacks. I hope you realize how much you belittle yourself with those kind of attacks. You are frustrated because I will not play the LDS Red Herring game and your frustration is showing. The remedy is easy…stop trying to play the red herring game.
In fact, I believe I have answered everything you have brought up.
Actually, you have TRIED to answer a few questions, and then you have thrown the red herrings to deflect. I totally understand…if I had to defend the LDS ever-changing doctrine, I, too, would deflect as much as possible
Stephen168
New member
No God would not, but the Mormon Church did.
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David
Guest
Hello Stephen,
Thank you for responding to my question.
Bdawg says these writing are interpreted to mean God is morally constant:
I have to admit, I don’t honestly see how one could get that interpretation. Even if I accept that interpretation, I don’t see the moral consistancy.
I really don’t understand how abortion (murdering unborn babies) can now be morally acceptable under any circumstances.
Peace
David
Stephen168
New member
My Doctor is trustworthy as my doctor because he went to school to study medicine, he is not trustworthy on faith and morals. The Catholic Church is trustworthy in faith and moral because they study the teachings of the church that go back to Christ and Christ sent the Holy Ghost to insure that happens. The magisterium is not trustworthy on the subject of medicine.
Yes, I know the Mormon ‘prophet’ is not infallible in his teachings on faith and morals, because they keep changing. Adam was God, no Adam was never God. Blacks are cursed, no Blacks are not cursed. Abortion is bad, no abortion is OK. I didn’t list teachings on discipline, I listed teaching that reason would say should NEVER change, but did.
Right, 7 million different teachings would all be accepted by the Mormon church. If someone had a personal revelation that the Book of Mormon was false, they would be excommunicated. Actually they were excommunicated. If someone had a revelation that Joseph Smith was an immoral conman, she might be excommunicated. Person revelation for everyone; 7 millions truths. Yes, there is nothing infallible in Mormonism.
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pablope
Guest
Well, why should you not? The LDS claim to be a restoration of an apostate church…then should it not follow that you set the example, set the standard of perfection…or be more perfect than the church the LDS is purporting to replace?
If you are no better than the church you are claiming to be corrupt, then what is the reason for the existence of the LDS?
Stephen168
New member
I believe the Book of Mormon is a very Orthodox Christian book. It was written before Joseph Smith’s megalomania started and he felt free to start making up his irrational feel good doctrine. Some have wondered if Joseph Smith ever read the book of mormon.
In my short life time I have seen them go from racist to not racist, murder bad to murder is ok if their parents are bad, we don’t believe in the trinity to we do believe in the trinity (mormon defined of course).
PS. I just moved my daughter down to you part of the country. Very beautiful.
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BDawg
Guest
TK, are you deliberately misconstruing everything I say? I said that LDS don’t believe prophets know everything about God, and so may have some false opinions. You contradicted me, noting that SW Kimball said prophets walk and talk with God. I pointed out that the apostles walked and talked with God, and yet they didn’t seem to know everything. I said nothing about prophets “confusing people”.
This is where the “lawyer” comments are coming from. I simply don’t think you are behaving like an honest person trying to discuss a subject in a reasonable manner. You twist my words, and then dismiss all my comments as “red herrings”. You have nothing substantive to say.
But since you brought up (out of thin air) the idea that prophets can never say anything confusing, I offer this from Matthew 13:
You see, your comment truly was a red herring, because you were putting words into my mouth that had nothing to do with what I actually said… and yet I still answered it.
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Crdl2Grv
Guest
Any confusion the Apostles experienced regarding Jesus Christ and His mission and His teachings ended at Pentecost. There’s no doubt that the Bible shows the pre-Pentecost Apostles to be frequently confused, if not flat-out wrong. “Get behind me, Satan,” comes to mind. But all that changed after the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. After that, the Apostles were completely different men. Even the LDS church admits that Christ’s church didn’t “fall into error” until after the Apostles died - not before.Supposing it’s true that prophets walk and talk with God, does that make them omniscient? I mean, the ancient apostles walked and talked with God (Jesus), but he didn’t directly answer every question they asked. Some of his answers were downright cryptic. In fact, they seemed downright confused a lot of the time.
And that, friend, is why using pre-Pentecost confusion on behalf of the original Apostles to excuse embarrassing statements and behavior on behalf of LDS “Apostles” is a red herring.
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
hellooooo to our LDS posters.
St. Paul says there is no marriage in heaven. We live like the angels. God doesn’t change. His plan is perfect. But he sure changes all over the place in the LDS World, like 180 DEGREE changes.
embarrassing for Smith, Young & assorted characters.
How can you argue with St. Paul? It’s in your face “NO MARRIAGE IN HEAVEN”
WHAT PART of NO don’t you UNDERSTAND? :banghead:
St. Paul says there is no marriage in heaven. We live like the angels. God doesn’t change. His plan is perfect. But he sure changes all over the place in the LDS World, like 180 DEGREE changes.
embarrassing for Smith, Young & assorted characters.How can you argue with St. Paul? It’s in your face “NO MARRIAGE IN HEAVEN”
WHAT PART of NO don’t you UNDERSTAND? :banghead:
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
SANDRA TANNER on JOHN ANKERBERG SHOW this weekend (Ankerberg a Catholic trasher to boot but Sandra tells it like it is 
Love Sandra’s photocopies of original documents, especially the ones given to her by scholars.
find it on Daystar or Inspiration channels SUNDAY, January 22, 2012 I get them on DISH.
With EX BYU prof Dr. Wilder & Hubby Michael Wilder ex-high LDS priest (30 years of it & left). Hope she gets her 401K - She surely earned it!
PS Ankerberg is in agreement that Jesus is God and Man and acknowledges such which in light of the subject matter is huge.
Love Sandra’s photocopies of original documents, especially the ones given to her by scholars.find it on Daystar or Inspiration channels SUNDAY, January 22, 2012 I get them on DISH.
With EX BYU prof Dr. Wilder & Hubby Michael Wilder ex-high LDS priest (30 years of it & left). Hope she gets her 401K - She surely earned it!
PS Ankerberg is in agreement that Jesus is God and Man and acknowledges such which in light of the subject matter is huge.
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BDawg
Guest
My point was simply that prophets don’t know everything, and therefore they are capable of speculation. Is your position that they actually did know everything there is to know about God, or that they were incapable of speculating about what they didn’t know?
This is the problem with people who only believe in dead prophets. They elevate the dead ones beyond mere mortals, so they can conveniently dismiss all the live ones.
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
Prophet job shut down centuries ago. Besides didn’t they have to be 100% accurate or they were discredited - or Oh, heck, known as “false prophets”
What was THAT about Quakers on the moon?..
What was THAT about Quakers on the moon?..
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BDawg
Guest
Pepband Mom,hellooooo to our LDS posters.
St. Paul says there is no marriage in heaven. We live like the angels. God doesn’t change. His plan is perfect. But he sure changes all over the place in the LDS World, like 180 DEGREE changes.
How can you argue with St. Paul? It’s in your face “NO MARRIAGE IN HEAVEN”
WHAT PART of NO don’t you UNDERSTAND? :banghead:
I think you are talking about something Jesus said, not Paul. In any case, maybe this article will help, if you actually want to understand what we think about this issue.
lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/eternal_marriage.htm
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JimmytheButcher
Guest
Reading this thread gave me the good laugh that I needed.
It really is humorous watching the going-back and forth.
Should I be scandalised that no one ever seems to read this uniquely American innovation through the lens Arianism and Manicheaenism? Between the cultural distrust of the created order and the intellect, the urge toward praying to a non-evil yet not entirely good mutible demiurge and never his failed servant and not entirely divine son, a disassociated and divorced father and son who are not entirely at odds with one another but still reside in seperate houses across the street from one another, the proposal of emmended scriptures, a complete denial and routine mockery of the His Redemptive Suffering on the Cross. The pre-existence theories of the heresy of Manicheaenism are also present.
An interesting parallel exists within Mormonism that I think is particularly disturbing. It is the serpent and the garden. We all know how the Mormon-thing twists and turns the Genesis garden and the Fall into something glorious, “Eat this and you will be like gods” where the serpent cursed mankind. Too often we fail to observe the presence of the serpent in the Garden of Olives, where Christ shed tears of blood. The garden where Mormons place their hearts was the scene of betrayal where the Apostles closed their eyes and shut their ears while Christ was attempting to lead them to Calvary. The Mormon vitrue of shutting ears and eyes has led them not to stand upon the mount and kneel. How one could fail to see that all sin is forgiveable in the Cross of Christ is beyond me. I say this with tongue in cheek. I fully understand how it is.
I digress. The Arian heretics were obsessed with the celestial spheres, and the two priesthoods, and likewise abused baptism. Also noteworthy is how Mormonism is the only non-Marian/non-Eucharistic religion that has constructed itself a parallel church-like structure. All of the Protestants adhere to the notion that Jesus is personally and that ecclesial community is unneccessary. The Mormon is not allowed to escape for even a shortwhile from his overseers. The Arians likewise constructed themselves a parallel church even fashioning themselves an anti-pope as the Arians did only they call him prophet. Distinctly, the Mormons have inverted nature in a way that exceeds even the ancient heresies. Where the usual heresy inverts nature by embracing abortion or homosexuality, they have made men bishops who we would call parish priests. They have made priests out of men who would naturally be called bishops. They have de-valued the priesthood in general as a final insult to Christ in way that is particularly noxious.
They have taken away the value of jewels by fabricating on the spot mock gems of broken coloured glass. It will not be long that the Mormon-thing will continue un-opposed. The wider-world is entering the Great Basin, and Mormonism knows no opposition in her short-lived past. Something that helps me understand how short the history of the desert dwellers is that my great-grandfather was born before 1852.
That ends my rant. I am off to sit with Jesus.
I do not in anyway discount the private desire for Christ that many of my neighbors have. I am aware that many of the Mormon men and women if their private views became public they would be proclaimed heretics by the billionaires of Salt Lake City, who seem to own every business around whether it be in the San Joaquin Valley or panhandle of Florida.
It really is humorous watching the going-back and forth.
Should I be scandalised that no one ever seems to read this uniquely American innovation through the lens Arianism and Manicheaenism? Between the cultural distrust of the created order and the intellect, the urge toward praying to a non-evil yet not entirely good mutible demiurge and never his failed servant and not entirely divine son, a disassociated and divorced father and son who are not entirely at odds with one another but still reside in seperate houses across the street from one another, the proposal of emmended scriptures, a complete denial and routine mockery of the His Redemptive Suffering on the Cross. The pre-existence theories of the heresy of Manicheaenism are also present.
An interesting parallel exists within Mormonism that I think is particularly disturbing. It is the serpent and the garden. We all know how the Mormon-thing twists and turns the Genesis garden and the Fall into something glorious, “Eat this and you will be like gods” where the serpent cursed mankind. Too often we fail to observe the presence of the serpent in the Garden of Olives, where Christ shed tears of blood. The garden where Mormons place their hearts was the scene of betrayal where the Apostles closed their eyes and shut their ears while Christ was attempting to lead them to Calvary. The Mormon vitrue of shutting ears and eyes has led them not to stand upon the mount and kneel. How one could fail to see that all sin is forgiveable in the Cross of Christ is beyond me. I say this with tongue in cheek. I fully understand how it is.
I digress. The Arian heretics were obsessed with the celestial spheres, and the two priesthoods, and likewise abused baptism. Also noteworthy is how Mormonism is the only non-Marian/non-Eucharistic religion that has constructed itself a parallel church-like structure. All of the Protestants adhere to the notion that Jesus is personally and that ecclesial community is unneccessary. The Mormon is not allowed to escape for even a shortwhile from his overseers. The Arians likewise constructed themselves a parallel church even fashioning themselves an anti-pope as the Arians did only they call him prophet. Distinctly, the Mormons have inverted nature in a way that exceeds even the ancient heresies. Where the usual heresy inverts nature by embracing abortion or homosexuality, they have made men bishops who we would call parish priests. They have made priests out of men who would naturally be called bishops. They have de-valued the priesthood in general as a final insult to Christ in way that is particularly noxious.
They have taken away the value of jewels by fabricating on the spot mock gems of broken coloured glass. It will not be long that the Mormon-thing will continue un-opposed. The wider-world is entering the Great Basin, and Mormonism knows no opposition in her short-lived past. Something that helps me understand how short the history of the desert dwellers is that my great-grandfather was born before 1852.
That ends my rant. I am off to sit with Jesus.
I do not in anyway discount the private desire for Christ that many of my neighbors have. I am aware that many of the Mormon men and women if their private views became public they would be proclaimed heretics by the billionaires of Salt Lake City, who seem to own every business around whether it be in the San Joaquin Valley or panhandle of Florida.
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
NO marriage in heaven IS: NO marriage in heaven, is it not? otherwise it’s double speak, scripture twisting my friend.
in other posts I’ve said:
1 Bridegroom: Jesus Christ
1 Bride: His Church, which is US
1 Eternal Covenant
The 1 Bridegroom is loyal to his 1 bride
To imply Christ was “married” and behaved like a mere human as per your faith’s inventors is well, ________
As far as the power & lust driven adulterers such as Smith, Young & assorted characters: NOTHING HOLY about sleepin’ around & makin’ up the rules as you go so you can “justify” your SIN. It REALLY got away from them, didn’t it. So Young had 53 wives was it? - had lots of self control apparently Quite the RESTORATION I’D SAY. By their fruits you shall know them.
Dawg wake up & smell the coffee. Now about those on the Quakers???.. (Feel free to Google Dr. Scott Hahn on Covenantal Theology for your own edification) . 53 wives doesn’t relate whatsoever to a Divine Covenant now does it?
in other posts I’ve said:
1 Bridegroom: Jesus Christ
1 Bride: His Church, which is US
1 Eternal Covenant
The 1 Bridegroom is loyal to his 1 bride
To imply Christ was “married” and behaved like a mere human as per your faith’s inventors is well, ________
As far as the power & lust driven adulterers such as Smith, Young & assorted characters: NOTHING HOLY about sleepin’ around & makin’ up the rules as you go so you can “justify” your SIN. It REALLY got away from them, didn’t it. So Young had 53 wives was it? - had lots of self control apparently
Quite the RESTORATION I’D SAY. By their fruits you shall know them.Dawg wake up & smell the coffee. Now about those on the Quakers???.. (Feel free to Google Dr. Scott Hahn on Covenantal Theology for your own edification) . 53 wives doesn’t relate whatsoever to a Divine Covenant now does it?
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BDawg
Guest
I always find it astonishing when people who say they believe in the Bible make a big deal about polygamy.NO marriage in heaven IS: NO marriage in heaven, is it not? otherwise it’s double speak, scripture twisting my friend.
in other posts I’ve said:
1 Bridegroom: Jesus Christ
1 Bride: His Church, which is US
1 Eternal Covenant
The 1 Bridegroom is loyal to his 1 bride
To imply Christ was “married” and behaved like a mere human as per your faith’s inventors is well, ________
As far as the power & lust driven adulterers such as Smith, Young & assorted characters: NOTHING HOLY about sleepin’ around & makin’ up the rules as you go so you can “justify” your SIN. It REALLY got away from them, didn’t it. So Young had 53 wives was it? - had lots of self control apparently
Dawg wake up & smell the coffee. Now about those on the Quakers???.. (Feel free to Google Dr. Scott Hahn on Covenantal Theology for your own edification) . 53 wives doesn’t relate whatsoever to a Divine Covenant now does it?
As for those Quakers, see here:
en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Moon_inhabited
Of course, Popes have never said anything that went along with the science of the day, but then turned out to be wrong, have they?
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TexanKnight
Guest
RED HERRING!!! The popes, as we know, never claimed to be prophets and never claimed to talk face to face with God. This is another LDS favorite. They also like to pick and choose what they want to believe about Joseph, and ise the “FairMormon” site to prove things. FairMormon is only half right…it is Mormon.I always find it astonishing when people who say they believe in the Bible make a big deal about polygamy.
RED HERRING ALERT!!! The typical LDS response is to compare stuff that happened in the years BC with what Joseph did in the 1800s. It is one of their favorite red herrings and dodges.
As for those Quakers, see here:
en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Moon_inhabited
Of course, Popes have never said anything that went along with the science of the day, but then turned out to be wrong, have they?
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