Understanding Mormonism

[TexanKnight]

TK, are you deliberately misconstruing everything I say?

Nope. Just using your doctrine to show what you actually believe and not what you try to dodge.

I said that LDS don’t believe prophets know everything about God, and so may have some false opinions. You contradicted me, noting that SW Kimball said prophets walk and talk with God. I pointed out that the apostles walked and talked with God, and yet they didn’t seem to know everything. I said nothing about prophets “confusing people”.

Ah, therein lies the rub. IF they walk and talk with God as they have claimed, then they should know that Adam was not God, or etc. Additionally, God would never let a prophet teach false things about Him. So, either you god does not mind his people being taught falsehoods, or your prophets really have no clue, or they simply lie. It must be one of those

This is where the “lawyer” comments are coming from. I simply don’t think you are behaving like an honest person trying to discuss a subject in a reasonable manner. You twist my words, and then dismiss all my comments as “red herrings”. You have nothing substantive to say.

Wrong. I simply say the truth and you cannot defend your beliefs, so you hide with insults, red herrings and comments like this

But since you brought up (out of thin air) the idea that prophets can never say anything confusing, I offer this from Matthew 13:

I did not say they do not say things confusing. I said God is not a God of confusion. He would not allow true prophets to teach things about Him that were not true.

 

[David]

Of course, Popes have never said anything that went along with the science of the day, but then turned out to be wrong, have they?

1 The Catholic Church does not teach the Pope is infallible regarding science.

2 If you were able to prove the Catholic Church is wrong, that would not prove the LDS is right.

Peace
David

 

[BDawg]

RED HERRING!!! The popes, as we know, never claimed to be prophets and never claimed to talk face to face with God. This is another LDS favorite. They also like to pick and choose what they want to believe about Joseph, and ise the “FairMormon” site to prove things. FairMormon is only half right…it is Mormon.

TK,

You need to learn to use the quote blocks properly in your posts.

You keep saying that Popes don’t claim to talk with God, but then, prophets never claimed to know everything because they talk to God.

So here’s the thing. I think your point is a “red herring,” since prophets never claimed to be up to the standard you want to impose on them. My reference to the Popes was simply to show that it isn’t fair to impose such a standard on them, either.

So if you think my reference was a “red herring,” then congratulations!!! Maybe you are finally getting the point.

But I doubt it, so I guess I’ll say sayonara. I usually enjoy talking to Catholics because they aren’t typically as rigid and one-sided in their thinking as fundamentalists, but all that seems to be left around here are pretty indistinguishable from fundamentalists, and I don’t enjoy talking to people like that.

 

[BDawg]

1 The Catholic Church does not teach the Pope is infallible regarding science.

2 If you were able to prove the Catholic Church is wrong, that would not prove the LDS is right.

Peace
David

David,

Finally, a reasonable person to talk to! My point was: The LDS Church does not teach the Prophet is infallible regarding science (or anything else). And yet, TK keeps insisting that they be held to that standard, even though Catholics don’t hold their leaders to that standard.

Do you understand why I think some of the posters here (including TK) are treating the LDS Church unfairly?

True critical thinkers aren’t the sort of people who can see all the warts on everyone else, but not on themselves. That’s what I feel is going on here.

 

[TexanKnight]

TK,

You need to learn to use the quote blocks properly in your posts.

I do this the way I like. Thanks.

You keep saying that Popes don’t claim to talk with God, but then, prophets never claimed to know everything because they talk to God.

Prophets talk to God. They walk with God. If you are saying that a prophet, who has a hotline with God will not know certain things that they later preach as doctrine, it shows that they have no respect for God, talk without knowledge, or lie.

So here’s the thing. I think your point is a “red herring,” since prophets never claimed to be up to the standard you want to impose on them. My reference to the Popes was simply to show that it isn’t fair to impose such a standard on them, either.

So here is the thing, Popes never claimed to walk and talk with God. You try to compare as a red herring. If popes made the same claims to talk to God that lds prophets do, then I would hold them to the same standard.

So if you think my reference was a “red herring,” then congratulations!!! Maybe you are finally getting the point.

You never made a valid point to get.

But I doubt it, so I guess I’ll say sayonara. I usually enjoy talking to Catholics because they aren’t typically as rigid and one-sided in their thinking as fundamentalists, but all that seems to be left around here are pretty indistinguishable from fundamentalists, and I don’t enjoy talking to people like that.

Translation: You can’t truly handle the facts and rely on red herrings and insults to cover up your inability. The thing is, I know how you feel. I used to be you. I used to be LDS. You have my prayers, my friend.

 

[David]

David,

Finally, a reasonable person to talk to! My point was: The LDS Church does not teach the Prophet is infallible regarding science (or anything else). And yet, TK keeps insisting that they be held to that standard, even though Catholics don’t hold their leaders to that standard.

Do you understand why I think some of the posters here (including TK) are treating the LDS Church unfairly?

Hello BDawg,
We define infallible as “without error” and we believe the Catholic Church’s teachings regarding faith and morals is without error".

If you admit that your Prophets are fallible, that means they can teach error.

We do not see Jesus as a failure. We believe that the Church He founded will never fail to protect the deposit of faith, He gave to the Apostles.

You can now see why we would be defensive when churches come along 1500 to 1800 years later and claim the Church Jesus founded is wrong.

According to the historical record the Bible came from the Catholic Church. So when people attempt to use our book against our Church, we may get defensive.

Hope that helps you understand why we might feel you are treating us unfairly.

Peace
David

 

[Jim_Dandy]

You should read some Catholic literature on “Doctrinal Development” (e.g., Cardinal Newman). The main difference is that LDS frankly admit that revelation is received by humans, who can misunderstand things, so we very well might learn something that requires us to reconsider our interpretations. On the other hand, Catholics (at least those with enough historical knowledge to understand why they can’t really claim Catholic beliefs have always been the same in every respect) want to claim that the doctrine really has always been there, it’s just that nobody recognized it. I personally don’t see that much difference in the two positions.

In any case, I find it amusing that people who believe in a God who is Three distinct Persons in a single Being that is completely “simple” (i.e., homogeneous) in Substance would complain about how incomprehensible Mormonism is. I think maybe you haven’t tried very hard to understand us.

John Henry Newman wrote his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine when he was an Anglican clergyman. After years of seclusion devoted to the study of the history of Christianity, when he had finished his book, he put down his pen, called a priest, and asked to be received into the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. You apparently either did not read his book or did not understand it.

It’s irrelevant to me how many Gods you believe in, including the fact that you believe you will one day become a god (or God) yourself and rule over your own world and have endless spirit children with your many goddess wives, but just don’t call Mormonism ‘Christian.’ Belief in the Trinity is what qualifies one as Christian. The three Gods of Mormonism is two too many. And that’s only counting the “earth Gods.”

 

[KathleenGee]

I am checking in here…

Texan Knight is speaking the truth and Bdawg is pontificating about popes…sorry nothing in our history of popes speaking to God, prophets, and so on…

Bdawg, you need to step back and find out the truth about your faith instead of the seriously comprised sources you are accessing…they don’t reflect well.

 

[JimmytheButcher]

Was informed today that the Catholics are the great apostates because we “imagine” that God is somehow something different from men.

Glad he cleared that up.

It really hurts that Jesus is spurned like this.

Ah… yes… Google Books. There are plenty of free publications availabe from the 1800’s covering the subject. I have yet to see one written by a Catholic writer but they are illuminative nonetheless. How could they not? Even our non-Catholic Christian brethren possess the Theological virtues due to the Sacrament of Baptism.

Weekend reading… Rev. R.W. Beers.

books.google.com/books/about/The_Mormon_puzzle_and_how_to_solve_it.html?id=0bwUAAAAYAAJ

 

[PaulDupre]

David,

Finally, a reasonable person to talk to! My point was: The LDS Church does not teach the Prophet is infallible regarding science (or anything else). And yet, TK keeps insisting that they be held to that standard, even though Catholics don’t hold their leaders to that standard.

Do you understand why I think some of the posters here (including TK) are treating the LDS Church unfairly?

True critical thinkers aren’t the sort of people who can see all the warts on everyone else, but not on themselves. That’s what I feel is going on here.

BDawg,
I understand that you don’t think your prophets and apostles (all of whom you sustain as prophets, seers and revelators) are infallible. But the fact that they can believe and teach things like:

The wedding feast at Cana was Jesus’ wedding.
Jesus was married to multiple women.
Judas didn’t hang himself - Peter kicked him to death.
Adam was God the Father.
The early LDS apostles were literal descendants of Jesus.

…and many more weird beliefs show us that they could not have had the Holy Ghost or known Jesus the way you believe they did.

I’m just saying’…

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[KathleenGee]

I just cannot believe how Mormons ignore the exhortations of Christ that marriage is permanent, but in heaven there is no marriage.

That is why they should think twice before misusing and misrepresenting Christ and His gospels, and malign His Church…it is a matter of principle.

The spirit of Joseph Smith definitely lives on.

 

[TexanKnight]

Jesus knew people like Joseph Smith, Ellen White, James Jones, etc. would come along. That is why He warned us about the wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Not everyone listened to Jesus. I know I was fooled, too. Thank you God for bringing me out of the dangerous church into the true Church

 

[CourtAdvocate]

There is a video on ewtn of a former Reorganized LDS (Mormon) that is pretty interesting. His name is Albert Holder

ewtn.com/tv/live/journeyhome.asp

Peace
David

The Community of Christ (Reorganized LDS) are a break off of my church. Do not conclude based a former Reorganized LDS member and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, such as myself, are both the same in doctrine and practice – we are not — I would recommend the Community of Christ website or looking our site before concluding based on the overworked false folklore, believed by some, that we are both the same.

We never that been the same.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Community of Christ (Reorganized LDS) are a break off of my church. Do not conclude based a former Reorganized LDS member and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, such as myself, are both the same in doctrine and practice – we are not — I would recommend the Community of Christ website or looking our site before concluding based on the overworked false folklore, believed by some, that we are both the same.

We never that been the same.

Forget the websight, why not just explain “exactly” what the difference is with your following?

 

[RebeccaJ]

We never that been the same.

Sure you have. You are both split off of Joseph Smith’s church. You both believe the Book of Mormon to be scripture. You both believe Joseph Smith was a prophet who restored a true church. You both believe in the majority of the teachings in the Doctrine and Covenants. The major difference is where the priesthood authority continued after Smith’s death. The RLDS believed it was in a patriarchal line (until they ran out of male heirs). You believe it is in the system Brigham Young put in place. Of course, this system favored himself at the succession crisis after Smith’s death.

 

[TexanKnight]

The Community of Christ (Reorganized LDS) are a break off of my church. Do not conclude based a former Reorganized LDS member and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, such as myself, are both the same in doctrine and practice – we are not — I would recommend the Community of Christ website or looking our site before concluding based on the overworked false folklore, believed by some, that we are both the same.

We never that been the same.

You absolutely were the same…and in a lot of ways, stiull are. You need to go back and find out why they split.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

I always find it astonishing when people who say they believe in the Bible make a big deal about polygamy.

As for those Quakers, see here:

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Moon_inhabited

Of course, Popes have never said anything that went along with the science of the day, but then turned out to be wrong, have they?

“a big deal about polygamy” INDEED. What about sinning in your heart - lusting over another human being, objectifying them… You’ve sinned without touching someone. And where is it in the NT that you can cross over from lustful thoughts to having multiple women to lust over some more. In marriage do not the 2 become 1 flesh??? Toss in a “prophet” promulgating multiple wives where he becomes “one flesh” with 53 women and his “God” who did same…

Our GOD is not the AUTHOR of SIN BUT PERMITS IT (see Origin) and changes not. JESUS is the Loyal Bridegroom who has ONE Bride - namely us, THE CHURCH!!! Distill the whole NT down to a few facts & one is the fulfillment of the 6 OT Covenants into the NT SEVENTH Covenant, the number of perfection, although he was tempted he never succumbed to the VICE of LUST. Multiple wives in the light of the NT 7th Covenant is impossible.

 

[KathleenGee]

What about the feelings among the sister wives, the intrigues and masks…what about the children see such? I don’t know how ancients lived, but some how sense those of faith were much more moderate in their display.

I think of the young boys kicked out of the extremist group…and homeless…what about them in the name of polygamy?

 

[Pepband_Mom]

When will the INSANITY stop?

1 woman, 4 husbands
2 husbands, 6 wives
toss in an animal, call that “marriage”

Are the Sister Wives & Hubby going to press for Multiple Marriage Partners/Polygamous Marriages now that so-called gay marriage is becoming a “right”

So much for 1 man and 1 woman becoming 1 flesh.

 

[batman1973]

The Community of Christ (Reorganized LDS) are a break off of my church. Do not conclude based a former Reorganized LDS member and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, such as myself, are both the same in doctrine and practice – we are not — I would recommend the Community of Christ website or looking our site before concluding based on the overworked false folklore, believed by some, that we are both the same.

We never that been the same.

Woah there Tonto. In addition to being a Mormon, I was also RLDS(I guess I didnt learn the first time) I can tell your for a fact the RLDS DID NOT break off from your church.(That’s a neat little story the Brighamites like to tell) I can also tell you with much certainty that the core beliefs of the RLDS(especially the Fundamental RLDS, and not so much the liberal “Communtiy of Christ”) are exactly the same. The differences are in succession, and the strange and abominable doctrines brought about by Brigham Young and his succesors.