Understanding Mormonism

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Joseph Smith’s first vision accounts
That is not a matter of inconsistencies. Just like the other scriptures I presented, it is a scripturally-based refutation. “No man can see God and live.” There are multiple scriptures for that, but at this point I would rather not take the effort. His vision was either a hallucination or a lie.
 
Joseph Smith was having sex with other men’s wives. There’s one clue.
 
Well, at least you admit that there are some contradictions in the Gospels. You haven’t produced any from Joseph Smith’s first vision accounts, though. I’m sure you are aware of the fact that people often recollect different details of the same occurrence at different times, and may even contradict themselves on minor details, even when they are trying to recall everything as accurately as possible. Certainly an upstanding lawyer wouldn’t blow something like that out of proportion, would he?
I have no problems thinking that 4 people, with different backgrounds and points of view contradicted a little. That is very common and understandable.

And as to your "people recollect differently…"yet another LDS Red Herring. Yes…perhaps if I went to Walmart today, in a year I might have different recollection of what I purchased…but we are not talking about an everyday-event. GOD VISITED HIM. Hard to believe he would ever get those facts confused unless it was made up. And his 9 versions show IT WAS MADE UP
 
Lawyer Tactic 14,389,672. When an opponent brings up a valid point, brush it off as a “red herring” without explaining why it is a red herring.
ah…still with Item 14, huh? Oh…and by the way, the finest form of flattery is using my tactics…so, thank you for flattering me. Meanwhile, your red herring has now gone on several posts. Congrats…you have dodged the issue. LDS Tactic 15
 
oh my heck, it’s bdawg. welcome back.

Four people giving different accounts of the same event is very normal. It would be suspicious if they all gave the exact same account.

But, when one person can’t keep his story straight, that smells of, “I just made something up”. Contradictory statements: I saw two people, I saw one, I saw a whole bunch of angels, no angels described, etc.

No verification of his story be made, say, against three other people who witnessed the same event. You just have to believe Smith, and pick which version of his story you want to believe. The LDS church has chosen to go with one particular account as the official version, for apparently no particular reason except it aligns to Smith’s evolving theology better than the other accounts.
 
True, that’s a problem. But the even larger one is the physical sex with Mary.

And that each Mormon man can become a God.
Hi Barbkw,

The “physical sex with Mary” thing came from a few comments made by some 19th century Mormon leaders (not Joseph Smith). It was never accepted as official doctrine, and it is not taught today. The idea obviously came from our belief that God has a physical body in human form, but there is no LDS revelation that says anything about how Jesus’ conception occurred.

I understand if you think it is a problem that ANY Mormon leaders ever thought this, but please be careful not to present it as something contemporary Mormons are supposed to believe, or that was ever official doctrine.
 
Hi Barbkw,

The “physical sex with Mary” thing came from a few comments made by some 19th century Mormon leaders (not Joseph Smith). It was never accepted as official doctrine, and it is not taught today. The idea obviously came from our belief that God has a physical body in human form, but there is no LDS revelation that says anything about how Jesus’ conception occurred.

I understand if you think it is a problem that ANY Mormon leaders ever thought this, but please be careful not to present it as something contemporary Mormons are supposed to believe, or that was ever official doctrine.
lol @ “some Mormon leaders” talk about a dodge! The comments came from alleged PROPHET Brigham Young. Yep…a PROPHET.

And this is how you know the LDS Church is false…when Prophets start giving wrong info on God…the Church is false.
 
lol @ “some Mormon leaders” talk about a dodge! The comments came from alleged PROPHET Brigham Young. Yep…a PROPHET.

And this is how you know the LDS Church is false…when Prophets start giving wrong info on God…the Church is false.
I never said it was wrong. How should I know how God accomplished the deed? He never said, as far as I can tell.

So is it your position that prophets can’t express any opinions about theological or moral stuff?

How about Popes? Here’s my favorite example, from the Papal Bull Ad Extirpanda:
The podesta or ruler (of the city) is hereby ordered to force all captured heretics to confess and accuse their accomplices by torture which will not imperil life or injure limb, just as thieves and robbers are forced to accuse their accomplices, and to confess their crimes; for these heretics are true thieves, murderers of souls, and robbers of the sacraments of God.
Can you explain this? I’m expecting the old “But That Wasn’t An Infallible Papal Bull” dodge. Which is totally different than the old “Prophets Have Opinions, Too” dodge, I’m sure. 😃
 
I never said it was wrong. How should I know how God accomplished the deed? He never said, as far as I can tell.

Well, since it is not doctrine and not taught, either it is wrong, or your leaders are nkt teaching true doctrine. Take your pick.

So is it your position that prophets can’t express any opinions about theological or moral stuff?

I am saying that God is not a God of confusion and will not allow a true prophet to teach false doctrine. BY never said what he was teaching was opinion. In fact, he claimed it was doctrine. So, you can dodge it all you want, but ither BY was lying, or he was a fase prophet. I am ok with either.

How about Popes? Here’s my favorite example, from the Papal Bull Ad Extirpanda:

Ah…yes…LDS tactic 14 again. The red herring. But let me make it wasy for you…Popes do not claim to be prophets…your guys do. Big difference. Nice try. You failed again.

Peace
 
Correction–that’s what it boils down to for disgruntled ex-Mormons who want to say something offensive about their former faith.
No, it’s just a fact. No matter where my family and I end up for eternity, we will always be a family and we will always love one another accordingly. When I meet with my parents, my siblings, my wife or my children and grandchildren, I will embrace them with joy. Nothing can stop that.

So the only net difference between family relations in the Mormon celestial kingdom and everywhere else is this:
These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:
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3: They will have their righteous family members with them, and will be able to have spirit children also. these spirit children will have the same relationship to them that we have to our Heavenly Father.
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  • Gospel Principles, chapter 47
I’ll be with my family, you’ll be with your family. But according to Mormonism you will be having children and I will not.

The only difference is sex and procreation.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
I never said it was wrong. How should I know how God accomplished the deed? He never said, as far as I can tell.
The Incarnation. Your Holy Spirit is also in the shape of a human being?
 
Well, since it is not doctrine and not taught, either it is wrong, or your leaders are nkt teaching true doctrine. Take your pick.
But if we have no way of knowing what the truth of the matter is unless God speaks up about it, what’s wrong with deciding to shut up about what we don’t know?

Reminds me about the Catholic controversy about “Limbo” for unbaptized infants. It was extensively taught, so that it actually made it into the Baltimore Catechism, among other things. And yet, it’s downplayed in the contemporary Catholic church because it supposedly never quite made it to the “infallible doctrine” level, and let’s face it, the Limbo doctrine sounds pretty harsh, so it’s not good PR.
I am saying that God is not a God of confusion and will not allow a true prophet to teach false doctrine. BY never said what he was teaching was opinion. In fact, he claimed it was doctrine. So, you can dodge it all you want, but ither BY was lying, or he was a fase prophet. I am ok with either.
I don’t see any quotations from Young. I can provide one where he said he was NOT infallible, if that helps.
Ah…yes…LDS tactic 14 again. The red herring. But let me make it wasy for you…Popes do not claim to be prophets…your guys do. Big difference. Nice try. You failed again.
Yes, but Popes do claim to be infallible when speaking in their office about issues of faith and morals. Mormon prophets do not. So yes, there is a big difference.

So please tell me. How can a Pope write an official statement ordering leaders of cities to capture heretics, torture confessions out of them, and torture them into giving up others as heretics?

Let me help you out, here. I’ve seen knowledgeable Catholics say that the “infallibility” rule is only applicable to GENERAL statements about faith and morals, whereas he is not infallible about SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS. In other words, an infallible Pope would never say, “Torturing people is morally good” in an official statement, but he could say, “Hey you–I order you to go torture a bunch of people.”

My point, in case you are missing it again, is that if Catholics want to throw stones about LDS prophets having expressed some weird opinions in the past, well… you’re sort of in a glass house. Your infallible popes have said some pretty execrable things themselves. And yet, you are able to brush that aside by saying they were just humans, after all. In other words, you set an impossibly high standard for us (that we never adopted for ourselves,) but a much, much lower standard for yourselves.

For a lawyer, you seem to have an odd interpretation of what a “red herring” is.
 
The Incarnation. Your Holy Spirit is also in the shape of a human being?
But has no body. In our belief system, the HS must transform a person into an angelic form before he/she can withstand the presence of God. So anyway, we do believe the Bible where it says the HS came upon her and the power of the Most High (i.e., the Father) overshadowed her. As far as I know, that’s all the (non-speculative) info we have about how it was accomplished.
 
But if we have no way of knowing what the truth of the matter is unless God speaks up about it, what’s wrong with deciding to shut up about what we don’t know?

lol…Spencer W. Kimball once said (he was prophet when I was LDS) that prophets walk and talk with God. BY got it wrong, or he lied…one or the other. Either one shows he was not a prophet

Everything else you said was just more red herring and dodging., I understand that you believe that works, but it does not. The fact you keep trying is rather cute.

In His Grip…
 
But has no body. In our belief system, the HS must transform a person into an angelic form before he/she can withstand the presence of God. So anyway, we do believe the Bible where it says the HS came upon her and the power of the Most High (i.e., the Father) overshadowed her. As far as I know, that’s all the (non-speculative) info we have about how it was accomplished.
You know, don’t you, that the term “overshadowed” was an ancient term for “possessed”. It doesn’t mean that God the Father was on top of her blocking the sun, as I was taught when I was LDS.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
But if we have no way of knowing what the truth of the matter is unless God speaks up about it, what’s wrong with deciding to shut up about what we don’t know?
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TexasKnight:
lol…Spencer W. Kimball once said (he was prophet when I was LDS) that prophets walk and talk with God. BY got it wrong, or he lied…one or the other. Either one shows he was not a prophet

Everything else you said was just more red herring and dodging., I understand that you believe that works, but it does not. The fact you keep trying is rather cute.

In His Grip…
Were you taught, as I was, that once a week or so the prophet goes into the Holy of Holies in the SLC temple and sits down with Jesus for a lengthy chat? If that is so, it would be very strange for a prophet to teach falsehoods about Jesus or God the Father.

We were also taught (and some Mormons on this forum have verified) that the modern apostles are “special witnesses” of Jesus just as the original apostles were because they have met Jesus in person. We were taught (in the 1970’s) that every apostle, after he was ordained to the quorum of the 12, was personally visited by Jesus in the flesh.

I guess they are backing away from that one now, too.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
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