Understanding the Catholic doctrine of justification

[SeekHisFace]

I’m having trouble understanding the Catholic doctrine of justification, or at least fitting it all together - I wonder if you can help me?
I’ll explain what I understand and hopefully you could explain what I don’t understand.

I have read that Catholics affirm that people are saved by a "working faith " or a faith that is expressed in love, and I completely agree with that, that works are a necessary fruit of a real faith, but it is grace through faith which saves us, but that faith always bears fruit in good works. This is an accurate reflection of my position- and of historical protestantism - is it an accurate reflection of Catholic teaching?

So my understanding is that Catholics believe that the saving faith is given as a gift (grace) at baptism? But when you commit mortal sin you lose that faith, and so confession is like a rebaptism where you are given the grace of faith back. Is this true?

Purgatory is just a sort of restitution to rebuild the relationship after you’ve been forgiven, (this I really don’t understand the need for when you consider the love of God, but this is another topic)
And is that everything? Because from this Analysis we aim very similar the only major differences are that Catholics believe that the grace of faith comes through the sacraments and we believe it comes independent of them. That, and the view of making restitution for sins and penance, but these do not seem to be exactly necessary in Catholic teaching to satisfy the justice of God, but merely to show how sorry one is?

Am I on the right track?

 

[Todd_Easton]

Helpful resources on the Catholic doctrine of justification:

Council of Trent’s 1547 Decree on Justification.

The Lutheran World Federation’s and the Catholic Church’s 1999 Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.

The 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church, section on “The Necessity of Baptism” (paragraphs 1257-1261).

 

[Vico]

I’m having trouble understanding the Catholic doctrine of justification, or at least fitting it all together - I wonder if you can help me?
I’ll explain what I understand and hopefully you could explain what I don’t understand.

I have read that Catholics affirm that people are saved by a "working faith " or a faith that is expressed in love, and I completely agree with that, that works are a necessary fruit of a real faith, but it is grace through faith which saves us, but that faith always bears fruit in good works. This is an accurate reflection of my position- and of historical protestantism - is it an accurate reflection of Catholic teaching?

So my understanding is that Catholics believe that the saving faith is given as a gift (grace) at baptism? But when you commit mortal sin you lose that faith, and so confession is like a rebaptism where you are given the grace of faith back. Is this true?

Purgatory is just a sort of restitution to rebuild the relationship after you’ve been forgiven, (this I really don’t understand the need for when you consider the love of God, but this is another topic)
And is that everything? Because from this Analysis we aim very similar the only major differences are that Catholics believe that the grace of faith comes through the sacraments and we believe it comes independent of them. That, and the view of making restitution for sins and penance, but these do not seem to be exactly necessary in Catholic teaching to satisfy the justice of God, but merely to show how sorry one is?

Am I on the right track?

You wrote “but that faith always bears fruit in good works”, but note that the faith can be lost and not restored later. That would be an unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit. Also remember the parable of the sower Mark 4:1-20. So when one is baptised, how is it yet know if the seed was sown on good soil?

Purgatory is for those that die in the friendship of God (saved) that still have unhealthy attachments to creatures – since these must be purified in order to receive the Beatific Vision.

Baptism is different than confession. Heaven would be the immediate result of one that was to die immediately after baptism, but purgatory may be the immediate result for one after confession.

 

[CelticWarlord]

There’s a very good piece below by Dr. David Anders on the topic of justification and the Catholic position.

I like this; “The Catholic Church understands justification differently. We agree that justification involves God’s “not guilty” verdict. God can say “not guilty” because his grace changes people, moves them from a life of sin and egotism to a life of charity. It’s God’s grace that does it. It comes about by faith. But it’s a real change and not merely “imputed.””

A response: The Catholic view of justification (column) | The St. Clair Times | annistonstar.com

 

[Zach]

But when you commit mortal sin you lose that faith,

That’s a good question maybe someone can answer. On the one hand, we may still have faith but through weakness commit mortal sin with the result we lose God’s grace until we Confess. On the other hand, if we lose our Baptismal initial justification through mortal sin and thus lose God’s grace until we Confess can we still have faith since faith is only possible through God’s grace?

 

[GraceJ]

Baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul. It also wipes away Original Sin, as well as any prior sins. Confession is done at later times after Baptism, to remove any sins you commit after Baptism.

Purgatory is where we go to “clean up” after our earthly life, in order to be freshly clean when we enter into heaven.

 

[tafan2]

So my understanding is that Catholics believe that the saving faith is given as a gift (grace) at baptism? But when you commit mortal sin you lose that faith, and so confession is like a rebaptism where you are given the grace of faith back. Is this true?

It’s not how most Catholics would word it, but it’s not far off. Mortal sin is abandoning the faith/God. But confession is not a rebaptism, although it has one if the same effects of baptism in that we are forgiven our sons. It is a reconciliation with God.

Purgatory is just a sort of restitution to rebuild the relationship after you’ve been forgiven, (this I really don’t understand the need for when you consider the love of God, but this is another topic)

It us really a purging of our attachment to sin. It makes us holy so that we can be with God. It is an ultimate sign of God’s mercy. God doesn’t give up on us because we happen to die (as one priest once explained it to me).

Where would God’s mercy be if we could not bear His presence because if our sinfulness?

I believe Luther once said we were like cow dung covered with snow. Well, we need to be better than that to be with God.

 

[Wesrock]

When we only speak of “faith and works” a lot gets lost in translation. The major point of difference is how we view grace and agency. I’m going to paint with a broad and simplistic brush. Lutherans teach that man is free to reject God but has no agency in accepting him. God just makes it so. Calvinists go further and teach that man has no agency in rejecting or accepting God.

Catholics reject both positions. The giving of grace does not override man’s free will to accept or reject it. Grace enables us to choose God and the good. That is, man can be given grace and reject it, or be given grace and cooperate with it. But man cannot come to faith or do good works without God giving us the grace to do so. It is that we have a role and a choice in cooperating throughout our lives that Mark’s Catholic belief. And since we do have a role in choosing to cooperate with God’s grace (which we could not do without that grace) we can earn merit. That merit is never enough to be salvific in itself, we need Christ for that, but God loves our offerings when we offer them along with Christ’s.

Catholics believe the point of following Christ isn’t just to “be saved”, at least not how some might see it. We see it as God calling for a real transformation in us into perfect beings detached from sin. We can’t do that without Christ, and if we don’t get all the way before death, we are purged of our imperfections after death (Purgatory) because of what Christ has done for us. It’s not just declaring us innocent and being done with it but God calling us and making us our best selves. It is pleasing to God to invite us into this cooperation and the infusion of justification instead of just imputing justification on us.

 

[fhansen]

I have read that Catholics affirm that people are saved by a "working faith " or a faith that is expressed in love, and I completely agree with that, that works are a necessary fruit of a real faith, but it is grace through faith which saves us, but that faith always bears fruit in good works. This is an accurate reflection of my position- and of historical protestantism - is it an accurate reflection of Catholic teaching?

The Church teaches that once one is justified, by faith (publicly professed in Baptism), one is in the kingdom of God: forgiven, washed, cleansed, made new creations, filled with the virtues of faith, hope, and love, not a merely imputed righteousness, but the “righteousness of God” which He’s always intended for man to have, as opposed to any so-called “righteousness” that we may think we have on our own, apart from Him. The new Covenant is all about becoming with Him first of all. “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5).

We are justified, and man’s justice consists first of all in that very communion, which man was made for and within which God can do His work in us-and without which we are dead. The justice or righteousness itself that comes to man is primarily and most importantly love, which is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are, incidentally. Mortal sin, by its nature, is a turning away from God and love, and destroys love in us according to Church teachings. To put it another way, we can lose our state of justice, our justified state, by persistently acting unjustly in grave ways, returning to a life in the flesh, etc. It’s all about what we do with whatever we’ve been given in terms of knowledge/revelation, grace, experience, time, etc, with more expected from those given more. The Parable of the Talents sheds light on this. We’re shown great love; we’re to return it.

So, interestingly, perhaps, the Church can teach, quoting John of the Cross, a 16th century believer:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Faith was never meant to define righteousness for man, or to replace it; rather faith is the means to it simply because faith is the means to God for man.

And the doctrine of purgatory just recognizes the need for man to be fully pure of heart in order to even be able to “see” God. No sinners enter heaven according to Scripture. Heck, we don’t even want to know Him that well to the extent that we aren’t putting Him first above all else, loving Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, as we’re distracted by other, lesser, created things before Him instead. So purgatory is a place of mercy where those who’ve otherwise followed God and refrained from grave offenses against Him and neighbor, who’ve done well at loving IOW but still aren’t quite there in this life, are finally, fully, purified. Man cannot even achieve full happiness, the happiness he’s created for, until and unless he loves God fully. “God alone satisfies”, as St Thomas Aquinas put it.

 

[po18guy]

Got catechism?

It’s all in there. No arguing on those pages.

 

[CRV]

@SeekHisFace Articles on Catholic Justification
Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) - CHAPTER THREE GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE ARTICLE 2 GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

Justification: Process or One-Time Deal? Tim Staples • 9/19/2014

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING James Akin

Catholic Encyclopedia - Justification

 

[SeekHisFace]

Thank you for this, so then, would you call “grace” the power or ability to do good, which may or may not be utilised.

If so I’m at the point of narrowing down the differences to:
-the definition of grace
-the means of grace (sacraments or otherwise)
-the nature of a Christian’s righteousness. (imputed righteousness or infused grace)

If grace doesn’t necessarily make us holy, but only gives the ability to be holy, what about after baptism, that grace makes an infant or adult holy enough for heaven even before it is cooperated with?

 

[SeekHisFace]

Thanks to those who recommended links, I will look at them, but I have read a few of them before (such as catechism and the Lutheran /catholic agreement).

I was trying to revocalise my understanding of what I had read in my own words and using terminology I would be more familiar with to ensure that I had a fair understanding so going back and just reading the CCC again doesn’t really help me. I’m trying to “put it all together” so to speak and not just talk past each other.

 

[Zach]

There is so much good info here between the posts and links I’ll bookmark it and come back later when I’m not half asleep.

 

[SeekHisFace]

It us really a purging of our attachment to sin. It makes us holy so that we can be with God. It is an ultimate sign of God’s mercy. God doesn’t give up on us because we happen to die (as one priest once explained it to me).

How holy does one have to be to be with God? Have no inclination to sin at all? Isn’t that impossible until we receive our new bodies and are no longer in this body of death? So wouldn’t death itself be every righteous person’s purgatory?

 

[CRV]

How holy does one have to be to be with God?

All Holy (as is God). Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God ( Mt 5: 8)
For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. Matthew 15:19

Have no inclination to sin at all?

Correct. Once we are purified (perhaps through Purgatory) from our sins &/or any attachment to sin we may have, we shall be made perfect as God is perfect.
John 17:21-25

Isn’t that impossible until we receive our new bodies

No, not really. The Saints in Heaven have not been reunited with their resurrected bodies and won’t be until the Last Day, yet being pure they are in Heaven with God.

So wouldn’t death itself be every righteous person’s purgatory

Death is the wages of sin. Death entered the world as a consequence of Adam & Eves’ Fall. Death is the passage through which all must pass to either Purgatory, Heaven or Hell.

 

[tafan2]

St Paul seems to disagree:

For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Corinthians Chapter 3

The Day: Judgement (happens at death).

 

[Todd_Easton]

According to above references:

1. Anyone who is not specifically a Catholic does not go to Heaven, including Protestants
2. Those who declare a desire to be Catholic and die are effectively baptized “in blood”. I would think this number is very low.
3. Children who die prior to baptism may or may not go to Heaven. According to doctrine they don’t, but we feel this is incompatible with a merciful God, so we “hope” it is not the case and trust God somehow resolves the issue.
4. If you are aware of the Gospel but don’t get baptized, you do not go to Heaven. In this day and age of information, I would think the number of people who have not heard the Gospel is very low.

By my count, at least 7 out of 8 souls do not go to heaven, which means they go to Hell - simply because of the rules of Baptism.

I suppose there may be some ambiguity in the way the teachings are expressed in those references, especially when read out of context, which might lead one to such erroneous conclusions. However, when read as the Church understands them and in the context of the whole body of Catholic teachings, the references in question do not support your erroneous conclusions.

My religion teacher (Catholic School) … claimed that baptism was not necessary and a soul was judged by its deeds not rituals.

What did your teacher mean by such words as “baptism” and “necessary”? For instance, by “baptism” did he mean “the sacrament of baptism” or “the graces of baptism”; by “necessary” did he mean “absolutely necessary without exception” or “ordinarily necessary but with exceptions.” If by “baptism” he meant “the sacrament of baptism,” then, yes, though ordinarily necessary, there may be exceptional circumstances when the sacrament of baptism is not absolutely necessary. However, if by “baptism” he meant "the graces that one receives when one receives the sacrament of baptism, such as the forgiveness of sins and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, graces which God can give independent of the sacrament, then, no, he is wrong; he is not teaching Catholic doctrine; he is teaching his own private and erroneous opinion.

 

[Gorgias]

SeekHisFace:

But when you commit mortal sin you lose that faith,

That’s a good question maybe someone can answer.

I don’t think I’d say “you lose faith”, but instead “you lose sanctifying grace.”

The Sacrament of Reconciliation restores you to a state of grace. It’s not completely like baptism, though, since baptism does more than “restore”.

Thank you for this, so then, would you call “grace” the power or ability to do good, which may or may not be utilised.

“Grace” is one of those words that defies a truly simple answer. If not in a state of grace, a person can “do good”, but not do “acts of supernatural merit” (which are the acts that reflect back on Jesus and the grace He gives us, and which have imputed merit through Christ).

Even if we are in a state of grace, it doesn’t automatically mean that we’ll do works of supernatural merit; it’s just that we will be able to do so.

How holy does one have to be to be with God? Have no inclination to sin at all?

SeekHisFace:

Have no inclination to sin at all?

Correct.

No, I don’t think @SeekHisFace is talking about post-purgation; I get the sense that the context is “at the time of death”, such that salvation might be achieved. In that context, it’s neither “perfectly holy” nor “devoid of attachment to sin”; rather, it’s merely that one is in a state of grace, however imperfect that might be.

 

[Gorgias]

By my count, at least 7 out of 8 souls do not go to heaven, which means they go to Hell - simply because of the rules of Baptism.

With all due respect, you need to re-work your math. What you suggest is not what the Church teaches – let’s take a look at correcting your assertions:

• Anyone who is not specifically a Catholic does not go to Heaven, including Protestants

Not true. Lumen gentium states:

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.

Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.

jan10000:

• Those who declare a desire to be Catholic and die are effectively baptized “in blood”. I would think this number is very low.

You seem to be conflating “baptism of desire” and “martyrdom.”
jan10000:

• Children who die prior to baptism may or may not go to Heaven. According to doctrine they don’t

No, doctrine doesn’t say “unbaptized children don’t go to heaven.” There are theologians over the years who have expressed this as an opinion, but it’s never been accepted as a doctrine of the Church.
jan10000:

, but we feel this is incompatible with a merciful God, so we “hope” it is not the case and trust God somehow resolves the issue.

No. It’s that we don’t know, because God’s revelation hasn’t addressed the question. Therefore, knowing what God has said about the desire that all may be saved, we trust them to Him.