Understanding the Trinity

[Horton]

In an effort to not derail another thread, I thought starting a new thread on this topic may be helpful. What does your faith tradition teach regarding the trinity? How do we as Catholics help others understand the trinity?

And yet the trinity is defined quite clearly in the Athanasian creed as “incomprehensible”
"Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

Now, the three being one but three, but still one may be called the “mystery of the trinity” but if saying that there’s one but actually three but really only one but they can be talking to each other, but still be one isn’t convoluted, I don’t know what is.

I don’t choose not to understand it. By its own definition (from a council ~400 years after Christ) it’s something not able to be understood. (And yes, I’m familiar with the metaphors of water, ice, steam and the sun-warmth, light, and radiation etc.)

Then please explain it to me I’ve read sermons and explanations but it always comes down to the “mystery of the trinity” I know there are countless other threads on this, and I don’t wish to derail this one, but if it’s so easy to understand l, enlighten me.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg/220px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png

This image should help to visualize the trinity. To fully understand it though you will have to take off your LDS blinders. There is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Three persons in one being. To further understand it study the Nicene Creed found here usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/

If you want to discuss this further we can start another thread.

 

[JonNC]

In an effort to not derail another thread, I thought starting a new thread on this topic may be helpful. What does your faith tradition teach regarding the trinity? How do we as Catholics help others understand the trinity?

Lutherans confess the Athanasian Creed.

Jon

 

[Micosil]

I made a post on another thread explaining Augustine’s take on it. I’ll expand once I get home, kind of hard to explain by phone on a train.

 

[Richca]

In an effort to not derail another thread, I thought starting a new thread on this topic may be helpful. What does your faith tradition teach regarding the trinity? How do we as Catholics help others understand the trinity?

We believe in one God in three persons. One refers to the divine nature and substance so that one God means that there is one divine nature. Three refers to the distinction of the persons who who are in or who possess the one divine nature, namely, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father communicates His own divine nature and substance in generating the Son, the Word of God who proceeds from the Father’s intellect. The Son does not possess a divine nature that is numerically distinct from the Father so that there would be two divine natures now such as in two distinct human beings each human possesses a numerically distinct human nature. The Son possesses the same identical and numerically one divine nature of the Father. The Father and the Son communicate the one divine nature to the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the love, which is an operation of the one will of the Father and the Son, that the Father and the Son have for each other. Since we believe in one God which means that there is one divine nature and substance, one intellect and will in the Godhead, the three persons of the Trinity have the same intellect and will which is derived from the Father who is the source of the Trinity. The Father possesses the divine nature or is God from no one. The Son is God from the Father who begets Him from all eternity, and the Holy Spirit is God who proceeds from the Father and the Son. As the three persons of the Trinity are one God in one divine nature, the unity of the three persons in the Trinity is obviously infinitely profound.

 

[book_and_bead]

This is not my idea, but it helps me to understand the Trinity…it’s like water. Water can exist in three states; solid (ice), liquid, and gas (steam). They are all forms of water (God).

 

[Micosil]

OK, so as promised…

In the other thread, I pasted this as part of an answer to someone:

Micosil:

…] Augustine establishes, in book 9, a “mental trinity” to pave the way to understand better the actual Trinity. He establishes mens (mind), notitia sui (self-knowledge) and amor sui (self-love) as a mental triad parallel to the actual Trinity; for mind, self-knowledge and self-love are all co-extensive, co-equal, consubstantial and inseperable, characteristics that the actual Holy Trinity has. Yet self-knowledge and self-love proceed from mind; the mind only loves itself because it knows itself, hence producing the mind, self-knowledge and self-love triad.

If you want more information, check these books out:

books.google.es/books?id=c2qNpqeYzOcC&pg=PA278&lpg=PA278&dq=mind+self+knowledge+self+love&source=bl&ots=bN8dEAfoyc&sig=uj87cVIL8HEMdY-MdlLhs6BALHo&hl=es&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=mind%20self%20knowledge%20self%20love&f=false

books.google.es/books?id=i54tE8J83_QC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=mind+self+knowledge+self+love&source=bl&ots=-FH_WHKNkx&sig=SAUH9rUsjcM3iwBeEBAFKyVsyJs&hl=es&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=mind%20self%20knowledge%20self%20love&f=false

To expand on this, and so that you don’t have to dig deep into those references, one can say that there is a unity of essence in the triad of “lover, what is being loved, and love”, and it is this triad which is applied to the mental parallel.

We tend to think of our ideas, that is, our knowledge, in words; so our knowledge, which can be considered a “mental word” of sorts, is something that comes before spoken or audible words – this then hints at the Word, the Logos, God’s own idea of Himself.

Now, the mind’s self-knowledge can be considered born of the mind – hence why the Logos, the second Person of the Trinity is called the Son. To end, the mind’s self-love proceeds from both the mind and its self-knowledge – hence why the Holy Spirit, in the Western tradition atleast, is considered to proceed from the Father and the Son. We also notice that, in mental thoughts, we don’t speak of a “self-love” – self-love thus, is not generated or begotten; self-love is something that “joins together” quasi-parent (mind) and quasi-offspring (self-knowledge). Which is why we don’t say that the Holy Spirit is begotten, while the Son is.

I hope that explains Augustine’s view on the Trinity, and how one can try to approach it rationally.

 

[Micosil]

This is not my idea, but it helps me to understand the Trinity…it’s like water. Water can exist in three states; solid (ice), liquid, and gas (steam). They are all forms of water (God).

Be very careful with this line of reasoning. It sort of seems like modalism.

 

[Alex_H]

This is not my idea, but it helps me to understand the Trinity…it’s like water. Water can exist in three states; solid (ice), liquid, and gas (steam). They are all forms of water (God).

Wow, I never thought of it that way!

 

[Wesrock]

Wow, I never thought of it that way!

The danger of this is modalism. It reduces God to one person who just changes the mode he exists in. The orthodox position is that God is three persons, all co-eternal.

Scott Hahn likes to emphasize God as a family. The Father, who loves the Son, who loves the Father back, with the Holy Spirit being their divine love. This makes God a Father, not in relation to us, not as something he does for us, but something he is and has been eternally. The same for being a Son, and for being love.

 

[arthra]

Horton asked:

*“What does your faith tradition teach regarding the trinity?”

Abdul-Baha explained the Baha’i view of the trinity many years ago around 1911 in the Holy Land…then Palestine today Israel and I quote:

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality – that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes – became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied – for the Sun is one – but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 113)

 

[Horton]

Thank you for your responses.

 

[porthos11]

This is not my idea, but it helps me to understand the Trinity…it’s like water. Water can exist in three states; solid (ice), liquid, and gas (steam). They are all forms of water (God).

This is the heresy of modalism.

Any attempt to explain the Trinity through an analogy will always inevitably confess some kind of heresy.

 

[Alex_H]

The danger of this is modalism. It reduces God to one person who just changes the mode he exists in. The orthodox position is that God is three persons, all co-eternal.

Scott Hahn likes to emphasize God as a family. The Father, who loves the Son, who loves the Father back, with the Holy Spirit being their divine love. This makes God a Father, not in relation to us, not as something he does for us, but something he is and has been eternally. The same for being a Son, and for being love.

This is difficult for me to understand.

 

[porthos11]

This is difficult for me to understand.

Of course it is. This is God we’re talking about.

Modalism (a.k.a. Sabellianism) is a heresy that states that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are merely different “forms” or “modes” of the one Person in God, like the ice, liquid, steam analogy. They are three forms of the one thing, and that is water. Get the same water and subject it to various combinations of temperature and pressure, and you get the water in the different forms, but it’s the same water.

This is heresy because the orthodox understanding is:

The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet they are not three Gods but one God.

But the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father, because they are three Persons, and they are distinct.

 

[Alex_H]

Of course it is. This is God we’re talking about.

Modalism (a.k.a. Sabellianism) is a heresy that states that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are merely different “forms” or “modes” of the one Person in God, like the ice, liquid, steam analogy. They are three forms of the one thing, and that is water. Get the same water and subject it to various combinations of temperature and pressure, and you get the water in the different forms, but it’s the same water.

This is heresy because the orthodox understanding is:

The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet they are not three Gods but one God.

But the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father, because they are three Persons, and they are distinct.

Sounds like three different gods to me but what do I know lol

 

[Micosil]

Sounds like three different gods to me but what do I know lol

What’s important to realize is that all three Persons share in the one same divine nature or essence. In that sense, by looking at the very fundamental nature of each of the three Persons, is God One. For His very nature, which is divine, is one, even if three divine Persons who are in communion with each other happen to share in that divine essence.

So no, it isn’t three different Gods for two reasons: they’re in perfect communion with each other, and because all three share in one divine nature.

 

[porthos11]

Sounds like three different gods to me but what do I know lol

But it isn’t. They are three Persons who possess the one divine nature, that is to say, one God in three Persons.

 

[JonNC]

But it isn’t. They are three Persons who possess the one divine nature, that is to say, one God in three Persons.

The Athanasian Creed

Written against the Arians.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

 

[porthos11]

Exactly.

And let our Lutheran friends also remind us:

St. Patrick’s bad analogies
youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw

 

[Horton]

This is difficult for me to understand.

Sounds like three different gods to me but what do I know lol

Alex - I see you are in RCIA. You should have a class that covers the Trinity. It is a core belief of the Catholic Church. At some point you should spend some time with this belief to internalize it, to understand it. Once you do understand the concept of the Trinity a lot of other concepts fall into place.

I know for me, it was easy, but I grew up in a trinitarian protestant church. The hardest part was learning to say Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost, but say enough rosaries and that comes easy too.

I don’t know of any Catholic books explaining the Trinity but maybe other posters can list some resources here.