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Nixbits
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For me, the notion of ‘One God in three Persons’ is difficult to understand because it seems to use ‘person’ in a way that is very different to normal usage and to my understanding of the word.
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TonyBS
Guest
Maybe not, maybe just further explained like this
“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine.” And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.” And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth… And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself…Thus it is that whatsoever be their utterance, whether it pertain to the realm of Divinity, Lordship, Prophethood, Messengership, Guardianship, Apostleship, or Servitude, all is true, beyond the shadow of a doubt”. reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-22.html
Regards Tony
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Vico
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Per Christianity, there is only one divine Son of God, (not multiple) and he rose from the dead in both body and spirit, and we may participate in his eternal life, in both body and spirit, by becoming Christ-like, through our cooperation with the Holy Spirit. That is why I stated that there are different theologies.
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Servant19
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Of couse Vico, in Christianity there is only one divine Son of God (Jesus), in Hindusim there is only one divine Being (Lord Krishna), ad in the Baha’i Faith there is only one divine Son of God exclusive to each period in history.
Maybe having our visions so narrow to our own chosen or inherited outlook is very limiting and denies God in His various ways?
Maybe instead of saying “NO!” and replacing that with “Maybe…” could open our souls to the full splendour of Divine Reality?
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Gabriel_of_12
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Hello Servant19
I would like to make a clarification “in Christianity”. There is only one Eternally begotten Son of the Father, who is God undivided, not confused or separated. Thus in Catholicism there is only One God and no other.I don’t know if the Krishna in Hinduism has revealed it’s nature or left a historical footprint of It’s being of the divine to humanity or all of creation?
There is no comparison of historical revelation of Jesus, or the blessed Trinity to Krishna. Nor can Christianity compare or speak of a “divine Son of God” exclusive to each period as compared to the Baha’i Faith.
For the Word of God took upon Himself flesh only one time in recorded human history.
Can you name all the “divine Son of God” who were exclusive to each period in history?
Not to get off the topic of “understanding the Trinity”, suffice it to say here, that **God does not accept testimony from man **or any historical figure that may have lived or not.
Only God can give testimony of who God is. Thus the God head of the blessed Trinity gives witness and testimony of God by God who God is.
Although, Hinduism and or the Baha’i faith may have some truth to their human history of faith in our creator. When we speak in general terms such as our Creator we can share a common ground.
But when it comes to divine revelation to our humanity and creation. Only God gives testimony of God’s presence by God in person or Trinity, who is One God and no other.
In Catholicism, we believe what God revealed. That God does not accept testimony from man, only God can give testimony of who God is. The Word of God incarnate has revealed this to our humanity in fullness of times. Jesus the Word of God took on flesh, dies and resurrected from the dead and lives…
Does Krishna or Bahai’s “divine Son of God” in every age reveal God’s presence making God known to man?
Peace be with you
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Trinity calls us to faith in God. The Catholic Church expresses her faith in One God, in the Spirit (baptism) of God, speaking of spiritual realities in spiritual terms.
The Trinity is not grounded on carnal knowledge that takes the noun “person” as it relates in human or worldly understanding. Person is used to reveal God’s presence, or as the Greek speaking side of the Catholic Faith exchanges the noun person with nature, when both are speaking of God’s presence made known in creation and time.
**I call your attention to 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, this text clarifies more of what I have introduced to you about understanding the Mysteries of God **which have been made known by God, but man lacks in divinity to understand them fully with a definition.
Peace be with you
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TonyBS
Guest
Dear Gabriel - A Baha’i would say all this is important to understanding the “Trinity” that is in all Faiths, that is as God the Holy Spirit and the Chosen Messenger.Hello Servant19
I don’t know if the Krishna in Hinduism has revealed it’s nature or left a historical footprint of It’s being of the divine to humanity or all of creation?
There is no comparison of historical revelation of Jesus, or the blessed Trinity to Krishna. Nor can Christianity compare or speak of a “divine Son of God” exclusive to each period as compared to the Baha’i Faith.
For the Word of God took upon Himself flesh only one time in recorded human history.
Can you name all the “divine Son of God” who were exclusive to each period in history?
Not to get off the topic of “understanding the Trinity”, suffice it to say here, that **God does not accept testimony from man **or any historical figure that may have lived or not.
Only God can give testimony of who God is. Thus the God head of the blessed Trinity gives witness and testimony of God by God who God is.
Although, Hinduism and or the Baha’i faith may have some truth to their human history of faith in our creator. When we speak in general terms such as our Creator we can share a common ground.
But when it comes to divine revelation to our humanity and creation. Only God gives testimony of God’s presence by God in person or Trinity, who is One God and no other.
In Catholicism, we believe what God revealed. That God does not accept testimony from man, only God can give testimony of who God is. The Word of God incarnate has revealed this to our humanity in fullness of times. Jesus the Word of God took on flesh, dies and resurrected from the dead and lives…
Does Krishna or Bahai’s “divine Son of God” in every age reveal God’s presence making God known to man?
Peace be with you
These passages explain how Jesus is indeed all the Messengers.
John 8:58 "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” and Revelation 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Yes in each age they make God known unto man.
Regards Tony
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Vico
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A Christian cannot say maybe, because it is a definitive and essential revelation of truth (and thus an article of faith) in Christianity that there is only one Son of God Jesus Christ, with both a divine and human natures and two wills, with one incarnation, Jesus Christ, and that all other men through time, have only a human nature have no divine nature. There are no other Divine beings in Christianity besides the Trinity.
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Nixbits
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Gabriel of 12:
So, should I think rather of ‘One God with three natures’? That’s far easier to accept.
Gabriel, thank you for trying to clarify this for me. Although I won’t pretend that I fully understand what you said here.
So, should I think rather of ‘One God with three natures’? That’s far easier to accept.
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eddie_too
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there have been more than a few holy and devout men and women in human history. many have been closely united to God.
however, only one man came down from heaven and that man is Jesus Christ the Lord.
all of the other great religious leaders. devout and holy people did their best with the talents they were given, but none of them came down from heaven.
only the One who came down from heaven can teach us fully the nature of the kingdom of heaven because that kingdom is His kingdom, no one else’s.
however, only one man came down from heaven and that man is Jesus Christ the Lord.
all of the other great religious leaders. devout and holy people did their best with the talents they were given, but none of them came down from heaven.
only the One who came down from heaven can teach us fully the nature of the kingdom of heaven because that kingdom is His kingdom, no one else’s.
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TonyBS
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This from a Baha’i point of view is paramount to understanding also the Trinity;
This may help this understanding
“…For example, there is the subject of Christ’s coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: “For I came down from heaven”; and also in verse 42 we find: “And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom…”
Thus though it appears that all Messengers are Born from the Womb of their Mother, in fact they all Came from “the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom”.
God Bless and Regards Tony
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eddie_too
Guest
there is no reason of which I am aware to believe any other human being besides Jesus came down from heaven.
incorrectly interpreting the gospel of john does not support the idea that all holy men existed in heaven before their human birth.
rejecting the Holy Trinity creates many false ideas.
only the Son of God came down from heaven because only the Son of God is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
God the Father endowed some men with the supernatural graces they needed to fulfill their divinely ordained missions while here on earth. noah, Abraham, moses, Elijah and john the Baptist are among the most prominent, but none of them pre-existed their human conceptions. only the Incarnate Word did that.
it is understandable, the desperate desire of those who follow others than the Son of God to equate their leaders with the Incarnate Word.
if such did not make that equation, they would have to believe in the Lord Jesus and they do not believe. the doctrines of such as these must deny the uniqueness of the God-man, our Lord Jesus Christ. the only other option they have is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
remember, only Jesus possesses the words of eternal life. only Jesus knows the divine mysteries and those to whom He chooses to reveal them. I do not know nor can I explain adequately why some are chosen to have faith while others do not. this is also a divine mystery. still, no one is denied faith by God. those who have heard the Word and chosen not to believe do so freely. those who have never heard the Word we must leave to the mercy of their Creator. many people heard the teachings of Jesus and knew of His death and Resurrection and yet did not believe.
incorrectly interpreting the gospel of john does not support the idea that all holy men existed in heaven before their human birth.
rejecting the Holy Trinity creates many false ideas.
only the Son of God came down from heaven because only the Son of God is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
God the Father endowed some men with the supernatural graces they needed to fulfill their divinely ordained missions while here on earth. noah, Abraham, moses, Elijah and john the Baptist are among the most prominent, but none of them pre-existed their human conceptions. only the Incarnate Word did that.
it is understandable, the desperate desire of those who follow others than the Son of God to equate their leaders with the Incarnate Word.
if such did not make that equation, they would have to believe in the Lord Jesus and they do not believe. the doctrines of such as these must deny the uniqueness of the God-man, our Lord Jesus Christ. the only other option they have is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
remember, only Jesus possesses the words of eternal life. only Jesus knows the divine mysteries and those to whom He chooses to reveal them. I do not know nor can I explain adequately why some are chosen to have faith while others do not. this is also a divine mystery. still, no one is denied faith by God. those who have heard the Word and chosen not to believe do so freely. those who have never heard the Word we must leave to the mercy of their Creator. many people heard the teachings of Jesus and knew of His death and Resurrection and yet did not believe.
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adamhovey1988
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It’s easier to accept or grasp because it’s also wrong. There is ONE divine nature because there is one God. There cannot be multiple divine natures because this would mean multiple gods. This ONE divine nature is possessed in its fullness by each the three divine Persons.
there’s only one orthodox belief that involves multiple natures, and that’s with regards to Christ. Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Trinity who became man. He is one Person, but with two Natures, God and Man. And further, only the Second Person became Man, thereby having two natures. The Father did not become Man, and neither did the Holy Spirit. Only the Son did.
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Vico
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In the Christian faith, no man, but Jesus Christ, is Divinity. There is an implication that Messengers are divine in general, which is not acceptable to Christianity.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia we learn the opinion on the title Son of Man:
The early Fathers were of the opinion that the expression was used out of humility and to show Christ’s human nature, and this is very probable considering the early rise of Docetism. This is also the opinion of Cornelius a Lapide. Others, such as Knabenbauer, think that He adopted a title which would not give umbrage to His enemies, and which, as time went on, was capable of being applied so as to cover His Messianic claims — to include everything that had been foretold of the representative man, the second Adam, the suffering servant of Jehovah, the Messianic king.
Haydock Commentary shows the meaning of being in heaven and on Earth:
Ver. 13. No man hath ascended—but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man, who is in heaven. These words, divers times repeated by our Saviour, in their literal and obvious sense, shew that Christ was in heaven, and had a being before he was born of the Virgin Mary, against the Cerinthians, &c. That he descended from heaven: that when he was made man, and conversed with men on earth, he was at the same time in heaven. Some Socinians give us here their groundless fancy, that Jesus after his baptism took a journey to heaven, and returned again before his death. Nor yet would this make him in heaven, when he spoke this to his disciples. (Witham)
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Servant19
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Of course dear Gabriel. Good to hear from you againHello Servant19
Krishna definitely revealed His nature as being divine. There is no doubt whatsoever in this regard from a Hindu perspective. He was God.
Would you mind sharing why you feel this to be the case?
Paul does speak of a time specific Revelation of Jesus. He uses the words “in these last days”. This to any objective reader directly refers to a time line.
Not according to Hinduism before Jesus, and the Baha’i Faith after Jesus.
According to the Baha’i religion, these include Abraham, Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Please note that the Baha’i religion teaches that just because one of these Beings did not specifically state that they were divine does not imply that they were not so. I’m sure that if Jesus had stated that Moses and Zoroaster were divine, you would believe Him. Why? Because Jesus stated and proved He was divine, and every word he utters is Truth.
For Baha’is, Baha’u’llah proved and stated that He was divine, and every word He utters is Truth, and for this reason when He states that all these other Beings were divine also (even though they did not specifically state as such), Baha’is absolutely believe it!
Of course
. So how do we know if Krishna or Baha’u’llah is God or not?
I have no doubt. It seems restrictive however to not believe what God revealed under another name…
In order for God to give His testimony, He needs to speak to us. Why does the Words of Jesus carry more weight than Krishna or Baha’u’llah?
Of course
Did Moses not make God known to man? If I was a Jew during Moses’ time, was God unknown to me?
Peace and goodwill to you too Gabriel. Heartfelt love and prayers to you and your loved ones during the upcoming festive season
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Servant19
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Servant19
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I will give you one word dear eddie…Krishna
Everyone must strive to become more aware…
God came down from heaven and created a baby Krishna in the virgin womb of His mother Devaki. You can read more in the wiki article here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births#Hinduism
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Alex_H
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The name of this thread is “Understanding the Trinity” and yet it seems like no one fully understands the trinity.
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MartinJordan
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The Sun and the Mirrors are created things. So how could this be? I’m afraid you are misrepresenting Jesus here.
MJ
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