Understanding the Trinity

[IgnatianPhilo]

It is the official position of the Baha’i Faith Ignition.

I do not understand your latter question. Maybe you can re-phrase?

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I’ll ask another question. What is the definition of a Trinitarian?

Also, are we allowed to casually redefine words if we think they should mean something different? For instance can I redefine the Islamic word and concept to be a classical example of Trinitarian theology?

 

[Servant19]

I’ll ask another question. What is the definition of a Trinitarian?

I have no idea Ignition. I would assume its someone who confesses the Nicean Creed? Maybe you can define it

Also, are we allowed to casually redefine words if we think they should mean something different? For instance can I redefine the Islamic word and concept to be a classical example of Trinitarian theology?

Again, I am not sure what you are referring to here. Maybe you can be more specific please?
There are some words which are not clearly defined in their definitions. Especially in theology, there are some words which are remarkably wishy washy in their definitions, mainly because they reference metaphysical realities, which by their very nature are “undefinable”…

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[Nixbits]

Servant19:

Essentially the Father, Holy Spirit and the Son can be likened to the physical sun, it’s essential rays and the perfect reflection of the sun.

When the perfect reflection says “I am the sun” it is the truth since nothing but the whole reality of the sun can be seen. When the perfect reflection says “Don’t call me the sun” it is also speaking the Truth. Does that make sense?

Thank you for taking the time to provide the Baha’i explanation. But it doesn’t make sense to me as a trinity. You have the sun and the sun’s rays. That’s two distinct things: one produced by the other. But the reflected rays are still the sun’s rays, whether they are reflected, refracted or whatever. Unless you mean that the third part of the trinity is the perfect reflector. But in that case, the reflector is something apart from the sun and the rays, so it’s still not a trinity - both three and one - to my way of thinking.

 

[Servant19]

Thank you for taking the time to provide the Baha’i explanation. But it doesn’t make sense to me as a trinity. You have the sun and the sun’s rays. That’s two distinct things: one produced by the other. But the reflected rays are still the sun’s rays, whether they are reflected, refracted or whatever. Unless you mean that the third part of the trinity is the perfect reflector. But in that case, the reflector is something apart from the sun and the rays, so it’s still not a trinity - both three and one - to my way of thinking.

Yes, the third part is the “perfect reflector” as you put it

They are distinct realities (which is common amongst all Trinitarian religions) however, the ESSENCE is one and the same, namely the qualities of heat and light which proceed from the sun, are the reality of its rays, and are perfectly reflected for me to see in all its glory should I choose to.

Hope that clarifies things somewhat. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not one Entity, they are distinct Entities sharing the same essence. In theological terms, these essential qualities shared by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the attributes of the Father, namely, omnipotence, omniscience, power, glory, truth, mercy, justice, beauty, etc etc…

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[IgnatianPhilo]

I have no idea Ignition. I would assume its someone who confesses the Nicean Creed? Maybe you can define it

Again, I am not sure what you are referring to here. Maybe you can be more specific please?
There are some words which are not clearly defined in their definitions. Especially in theology, there are some words which are remarkably wishy washy in their definitions, mainly because they reference metaphysical realities, which by their very nature are “undefinable”…

.

You would say you believe in the trinity which would make you a Trinitarian, no? But fine, please define trinity as a word of a concept you believe In.

Also do you think the word trinity does not have a long and consistent use throughout history? I know it does. There’s a reason Mormons say they deny trinity. Why JW call it a heresy. Why only those who confess Nicaea and Constantinople call themselves Trinitarian.

I don’t understand how one is able to take an established word. Completely redefine it and act as if one merely has a different opinion on the matter. For instance, i could claim tauwhid must mean an orthodox view of the trinity. It’s an absurd statement because tauwhid has an established Islamic meaning and it would be dishonest for me to insist otherwise. This is how I view your attempts to define the trinity. You aren’t, your co-opting a word and in turn derailing the discussion into something unrelated to the trinity. Bahais don’t confess the trinity.

 

[mikeeh]

How do we as Catholics help others understand the trinity?

Each one has a different purpose. The Father is the creator, the Son is the Savior, and the Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier. The analogy I came up with to help me understand the Trinity is to think of it like the federal government. There is one central government divided into three branches all working together, but separate from each other. The legislative branch (Congress) makes the laws, the executive branch (president) enforces the laws, and the judicial branch (Supreme Court) interprets the law. The Trinity acts in a similar manner but instead of law replace it with love. The Father creates the love, the Son enforces that love or brings that love to fulfillment, and the Holy Spirit interprets that love inside of us.

 

[TonyBS]

You would say you believe in the trinity which would make you a Trinitarian, no? But fine, please define trinity as a word of a concept you believe In.

Also do you think the word trinity does not have a long and consistent use throughout history? I know it does. There’s a reason Mormons say they deny trinity. Why JW call it a heresy. Why only those who confess Nicaea and Constantinople call themselves Trinitarian.

I don’t understand how one is able to take an established word. Completely redefine it and act as if one merely has a different opinion on the matter. For instance, i could claim tauwhid must mean an orthodox view of the trinity. It’s an absurd statement because tauwhid has an established Islamic meaning and it would be dishonest for me to insist otherwise. This is how I view your attempts to define the trinity. You aren’t, your co-opting a word and in turn derailing the discussion into something unrelated to the trinity. Bahais don’t confess the trinity.

I confess Life is nothing without God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus the Christ, that my heart belongs to them

Matter of fact none of us would be here without the Three aspects of creation mentioned above.

I would consider as to why one would try to exclude of make “Exclusive” that Love.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[blanchardman]

Just my two cents:
The Father is God working in heaven.
The Son is God working on earth.
The Holy Spirit is God working in man.

 

[eddie_too]

Jesus is the Incarnate Word. none of the other wisest and holiest men in the world before or since have claimed that title and all that it explains and contains.

the reason I hold Jesus in a place alone and above all other human beings is because He is the Incarnate Word. surely, anyone who came after Jesus and claimed a special connection to our Creator would also know and understand much, if not all, that the title or name or reality that is the Incarnate Word teaches.

men who claim special connections to almighty God but refuse to acknowledge that Jesus alone is the Incarnate Word prove to me, through their ignorance of most of the meaning in the title Incarnate Word, that they are not receiving true teachings from almighty God.

 

[eddie_too]

it is the doctrine of the Incarnate Word that best explains why and how Jesus, and Jesus alone, came down from heaven. the doctrine explains much more that the why and the how, but the doctrine of the Incarnate Word definitely sets Jesus apart from the rest of mankind.

so, if you follow someone other than Jesus, you might ask them or their designated teachers why that someone never referred to the Incarnate Word. if they have only a smidgeon of understanding about the Incarnate Word, I would refuse to follow any of their teachings that conflict with the teachings of Jesus and the RCC which teachings are actually the same, those teachings of Jesus and the RCC.

 

[eddie_too]

the Trinity are not aspects of creation. they are the Creator of all things.

ever since Jesus introduced us to the Trinity, men have been trying to define it differently from how Jesus revealed it. these attempt to redefine the Trinity differently from the way Jesus gave It to us are evidence that the men doing the redefining do not come from our Creator.

 

[porthos11]

Just my two cents:
The Father is God working in heaven.
The Son is God working on earth.
The Holy Spirit is God working in man.

The Persons are not defined according to their job description either, although there is such a thing called appropriation (creation is appropriated to the Father, wisdom to the Son, sanctification to the Holy Spirit). But because of the unity of will, anything accomplished by the Godhead is done by all Persons.

This does not include Redemption, which is not appropriated, but belongs solely to the Son, which is only possible because Redemption was an act of Christ in his humanity.

 

[Job314]

Thanks for starting this thread Horton, I appreciate it.

Would it be fair to say that the Catholic belief is that there are three beings that share one perfect personality and nature but two of those beings are spirit and one is embodied?

It’s something I still really struggle to understand.

 

[Vico]

Thanks for starting this thread Horton, I appreciate it.

Would it be fair to say that the Catholic belief is that there are three beings that share one perfect personality and nature but two of those beings are spirit and one is embodied?

It’s something I still really struggle to understand.

No, the Trinity is one being, God: one divine nature (essence) with relations of opposition which are the three persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The word used is consubstantial.

The incarnation of Jesus Christ is the Son, and from the time of incarnation also has a human nature and will, in addition to divine nature and will. Jesus Christ is true God and true Man.

The Catechism has:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91

 

[eddie_too]

the RCC teaching on the Trinity is profound and voluminous.

the RCC teaches at its most basic that there are three distinct Persons who share completely in One Divine Nature resulting in One Supreme Being/God.

the most fundamental distinction that we can make between the Three is that the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit; that the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit; and, that the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

RCC theology on the subject is not restricted to the most fundamental distinction.

one book that I found particularly helpful when studying the Holy Trinity was written by St. Augustine of Hippo in, I believe the fifth century AD. it is called De Trinitate and English translations are available.

 

[porthos11]

Thanks for starting this thread Horton, I appreciate it.

Would it be fair to say that the Catholic belief is that there are three beings that share one perfect personality and nature but two of those beings are spirit and one is embodied?

It’s something I still really struggle to understand.

No. God is one Being; in fact, he is Being itself. I would hesitate to use the word “personality” but there are three Persons in that one God.

Further, God is pure Spirit, so the Second Person is Spirit as well, being fully God. It’s just that since the Incarnation, the Second Person is also Man, so he is fully God and fully Man.

 

[Servant19]

You would say you believe in the trinity which would make you a Trinitarian, no? But fine, please define trinity as a word of a concept you believe In.

I believe in a Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the reality of each existing outside of physical creation. Periodically, the Son manifests Itself in a Human Temple and a global religion is born.

Also do you think the word trinity does not have a long and consistent use throughout history?

Yes, of course.

But I remind you, it started with Lord Krishna.

That should be the base for all people. There is tremendous value in Hinduism.

There’s a reason Mormons say they deny trinity. Why JW call it a heresy. Why only those who confess Nicaea and Constantinople call themselves Trinitarian.

I think Mormonism and JW teaching is outside the interests of our conversation Ignatian…

I don’t understand how one is able to take an established word. Completely redefine it and act as if one merely has a different opinion on the matter. For instance, i could claim tauwhid must mean an orthodox view of the trinity. It’s an absurd statement because tauwhid has an established Islamic meaning and it would be dishonest for me to insist otherwise. This is how I view your attempts to define the trinity. You aren’t, your co-opting a word and in turn derailing the discussion into something unrelated to the trinity. Bahais don’t confess the trinity.

Well, I would be able to respond to this if I knew what it is that the Baha’i Faith has re-defined exactly??

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[IgnatianPhilo]

I believe in a Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the reality of each existing outside of physical creation. Periodically, the Son manifests Itself in a Human Temple and a global religion is born.

Yes, of course.

But I remind you, it started with Lord Krishna.

That should be the base for all people. There is tremendous value in Hinduism.

I think Mormonism and JW teaching is outside the interests of our conversation Ignatian…

Well, I would be able to respond to this if I knew what it is that the Baha’i Faith has re-defined exactly??

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I’m not sure if that first response is an answer. But let me ask are Muslims tributaries?

Also Trinity didn’t start with Hinduism. Where in Hinduism do we find the sorts of reflections on the relationship between the father and son and spirit? Trinidadian theology developed out of the church, using the new testament and it’s tradition to seek clarity. It didn’t need Hinduism.

You have obviously redefined the Trinity.

 

[Servant19]

I’m not sure if that first response is an answer. But let me ask are Muslims tributaries?

Muslim tributaries?? What are they?

Also Trinity didn’t start with Hinduism. Where in Hinduism do we find the sorts of reflections on the relationship between the father and son and spirit? Trinidadian theology developed out of the church, using the new testament and it’s tradition to seek clarity. It didn’t need Hinduism.

Dear Ignatian. You have not studied Hinduism at all. You cannot challenge people that a certain thing does not exist in Hinduism when there has been no study.

There are PLENTY of reflections on the relationship between God, the Holy Spirit and the Son in Hinduism.

Please do a study on Om Tat Sat, and you can learn a glimpse into the Trinity in Hinduism. It came first, to all objective observers, that is fact.

You have obviously redefined the Trinity.

You still have not elaborated on what the Baha’i Faith has re-defined. I would appreciate that thankyou

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[Job314]

No. God is one Being; in fact, he is Being itself. I would hesitate to use the word “personality” but there are three Persons in that one God.

Further, God is pure Spirit, so the Second Person is Spirit as well, being fully God. It’s just that since the Incarnation, the Second Person is also Man, so he is fully God and fully Man.

This is the part that I find most difficult to understand. You say that God is one Being. He is fully unembodied Spirit. But He is also fully embodied spirit manifest in Christ.

Can you please explain again how there can be three persons in one God?