Understanding the Trinity

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The more one tries to use today’s sentiments and try to pry verses not based on Tradition of the days in that era of the time Scriptures were written the more futile and complex will be to get the Truth. The best way is to find what was passed down from generation to generation. If there are found inconsistencies or gaps then those must be scrutinized with proof explaining these gaps.

Intellectual honesty is a good practice.

MJ
 
hasantas said:
The same substance either is solid or liquid or gas and it can’t be three phases at same time. Ofcourse both solid, liquid and gas materials should be at same time but the substances are to be distinct. Divine essence do not split and do not incarnate. Divine essence create matter but do not transform in matter. Matter has a beginning but divine essence is eternal.

And a man may have several roles that is true. For God these roles are manifestations of God. For instance God give/act life, hearing, feeling, view, wisdom, power, desire etc. So a man may have many roles but he is one not three or five or more men in one!
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You seem to know so much about “Divine essence” and about what is possible for it. Have you done scientific experiments? Is there such a thing, for example, as the plasma state for divine essence?

You do undertstand that comparing the Trinity to states of matter is only an analogy and not an equalization? With God we are NOT speaking of a material substance, correct?

I am puzzled by the fact that for Muslims God is so far above human understanding as to be incomprehensible, but yet so many statements are made with regard to what is or is not possible for God and what the “divine essence” permits.

Do you agree that God is Love?

What do you suppose God’s perfect knowledge of his own Being would be like? Would that perfect knowledge not be very like another “Self” though still essentially one Being? Does God not know Himself or love Himself? Is he not perfectly self-aware?
 
hasantas said:
Christians have scripture by translation but Muslims have scripture directly from words of God. I am that!
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This is your claim that Islamic scriptures are “directly” from God. From what I have read of them I do not find the claim very compelling. The way that they were compiled does not support such a claim, either. Nor the fact that God only speaks Arabic – that seems a tad suspicious coming from the Arabic speaking source of Islam.

Why did he not speak to the Jews in Arabic or to the early Christians who wrote in Aramaic or Greek? You seem to permit that the Bible and New Testament are the words of God and not corrupt when written, but they are not in Arabic. In fact, when Peter spoke after Pentecost in Acts, people of all languages understood him in their own language. God would seem quite capable of mastering any language if he is omniscient and omnipotent, no?
 
Peter_Plato said:
This is your claim that Islamic scriptures are “directly” from God. From what I have read of them I do not find the claim very compelling. The way that they were compiled does not support such a claim, either. Nor the fact that God only speaks Arabic – that seems a tad suspicious coming from the Arabic speaking source of Islam.

Why did he not speak to the Jews in Arabic or to the early Christians who wrote in Aramaic or Greek? You seem to permit that the Bible and New Testament are the words of God and not corrupt when written, but they are not in Arabic. In fact, when Peter spoke after Pentecost in Acts, people of all languages understood him in their own language. God would seem quite capable of mastering any language if he is omniscient and omnipotent, no?
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The key to understanding the Trinity and All Gods Scriptures is enshrined within

God Doeth as He Willeth

It is know the Koran is special, millions have recognized this and this link will give you some insight - hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/the-inimitable-quran/

As to its source, Muhammad has offered these passages to those that doubt;

“If you are in doubt of what We have revealed to Our Messenger, then produce one chapter like it, call upon all your helpers, besides Allah, if you are truthful.” Surah al-Baqarah (The Heifer) 2: 23.

“Or do they say: “He (Prophet Muhammad, ) has forged it (this Qur’an)?” Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recitation like it (the Qur’an) if they are truthful.” Surah at-Toor (The Mount) 52: 33-34.

From the link;

"In conclusion, the Qur’an is a literary and linguistic mira-cle. It has challenged those who doubt its Divine author-ship and history has shown that it is indeed a miracle as there can be no natural explanation to comprehensively explain its unmatched unique expression. As tangible signs, Qur’anic verses are expressive of an inexhaustible truth. They signify meanings layered within meanings, light upon light and miracle after miracle. Examples of other miraculous aspects of the Qur’an, such as the scientific accuracy where it deals with many natural phenomena, can be found in “The Islam Guide, pp. 191-264”.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Peter_Plato said:
You seem to know so much about “Divine essence” and about what is possible for it. Have you done scientific experiments? Is there such a thing, for example, as the plasma state for divine essence?

You do undertstand that comparing the Trinity to states of matter is only an analogy and not an equalization? With God we are NOT speaking of a material substance, correct?

I am puzzled by the fact that for Muslims God is so far above human understanding as to be incomprehensible, but yet so many statements are made with regard to what is or is not possible for God and what the “divine essence” permits.
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Is not God eternal? I think everybody knows that who believes in God.What is meaning of eternal? Without begining and end or timeless and endless. So when you say God incarnated you put God in time. And that question is not proper to be asked “if God wants He can do everything!” God can persecute but He never do that because that conflict with justice of God (but power of God can do that.)

God can be understand very easily because every atom of universe point God and every actions of universe show an attribute of God. Every acts are manifestations of God so we can understand God in that way. But God has no time, place as essence and substance so God cannot be comprehensed directly but through manifestations. And being incarnated is not valid for a eternal divine being. Do you agree? And I can guess that you will say if God wish He can do!

That analogy the three states of water is not enough to explain divine substance. That is true. Most of people refer to that analogy to explain Trinity but trinity should be explained by God Himself in Bible. Because that seems very complex and God do not charge human such thing human cannot bear and understand. We can understand that God has existence and we can know most of attributes of God through manifestations but we cannot comprehend divine eternal substance which is beyond of our comprehension.

We have not right to judge God according to our lack comprehension so we should do that in light of prophets and scriptures otherwise we will get away very far from the fact.
 
Hasantas where are the Traditional Islamic texts that discuss Biblical verses you’ve brought up?. Come on friend something tangible for dialogue.

MJ
 
Peter_Plato said:
This is your claim that Islamic scriptures are “directly” from God. From what I have read of them I do not find the claim very compelling. The way that they were compiled does not support such a claim, either. Nor the fact that God only speaks Arabic – that seems a tad suspicious coming from the Arabic speaking source of Islam.

Why did he not speak to the Jews in Arabic or to the early Christians who wrote in Aramaic or Greek? You seem to permit that the Bible and New Testament are the words of God and not corrupt when written, but they are not in Arabic. In fact, when Peter spoke after Pentecost in Acts, people of all languages understood him in their own language. God would seem quite capable of mastering any language if he is omniscient and omnipotent, no?
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I do not state that God speak only in Arabic. All languages are belong to God and languages are evidences of God. I said that the original text of Bible in Aramaic is absent and there have been many varied texts of Gospels which show that there is no original text. There should be many faults and wrong comments in translations which Muslims call corruption.
 
hasantas said:
I do not state that God speak only in Arabic. All languages are belong to God and languages are evidences of God. I said that the original text of Bible in Aramaic is absent and there have been many varied texts of Gospels which show that there is no original text. There should be many faults and wrong comments in translations which Muslims call corruption.
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The Aramaic speaking Churches still exist. They all use an Aramaic Bible, it is similar and in most places exactly like the Greek and Latin translations. None agree with the Koran or the Islamic interpretations.
Can you bring some evidences and explanations in logic or from Bible?
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Why? If I give you one verse, you’ll start counter arguing using the Koran - a book I don’t consider holy or from God. In addition, we Catholics and Orthodox do not treat the Bible as you treat the Koran. We have our Church’s teaching and the faith handed down from the Apostles - the Bible is to be interpreted with these in hand, not in isolation.
Christians have scripture by translation but Muslims have scripture directly from words of God. I am that!
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Christians have the inspiration of God (Holy Spirit) in the teachings of the Church, the faith handed down through the Apostles up to the present day, and the Bible - all three tiers are equally and directly inspired. So to isolate one (the Bible), exclude the rest and say it fits your Muslim interpretation - well, you can see you we just nod our heads and sigh in disbelief. That tactic might work with some protestant sects that reject everything but quoting Bible verses, lacking history, theology or any Apostolic teaching.
 
TonyBS said:
As to its source, Muhammad has offered these passages to those that doubt;

“If you are in doubt of what We have revealed to Our Messenger, then produce one chapter like it, call upon all your helpers, besides Allah, if you are truthful.” Surah al-Baqarah (The Heifer) 2: 23.
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I’m not sure what this verse is in regard to - isn’t your prophet Bahaullah or the Bab contradicting this verse? Also, just because Muhammad says his chapter is the best and you must disprove it by showing his followers a similar text that they judge – of course they will judge their prophets as the best. Isn’t this why the Bab and Bahaullah are rejected by all Muslims?
“Or do they say: “He (Prophet Muhammad, ) has forged it (this Qur’an)?” Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recitation like it (the Qur’an) if they are truthful.” Surah at-Toor (The Mount) 52: 33-34.
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Is the Koran a recitation or a written text? If recitation - what criteria are you using to judge what else is “like it”?
From the link;
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"In conclusion, the Qur’an is a literary and linguistic mira-cle. It has challenged those who doubt its Divine author-ship and history has shown that it is indeed a miracle as there can be no natural explanation to comprehensively explain its unmatched unique expression. As tangible signs, Qur’anic verses are expressive of an inexhaustible truth. They signify meanings layered within meanings, light upon light and miracle after miracle. Examples of other miraculous aspects of the Qur’an, such as the scientific accuracy where it deals with many natural phenomena, can be found in “The Islam Guide, pp. 191-264”.
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The followers of the Bagavad Gita, Zoroastar, Confucius, and every other ‘holy book’ say the same thing about their own texts.
 
hasantas said:
…I mean some part of God do not be Son and other part do not be Holy Spirit. …
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This is incorrect per Catholic dogma. There are no parts in God. God is one substance without parts. There are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but this is by relations of opposition which is not something that requires composition. (See Aristotle Metaphysics on Categories).

In Aristotle’s Categories, being is divided into substance and the nine categories including the category of "relation”.

We can ask if God the Father is Father because he begets the Son or whether he begets the Son because He is Father. Aquinas uses the second: “God the Father begets the Son because He is Father.” The relational property of being Father is the primary source of what makes the Father distinct. There are only two candidates that might provide the distinction, that of essence and relation. Essence doesn’t distinguish, so it must be relation.

The relations determine distinct persons yet do not determine distinct essences; the relations are fundamental to the distinction.
 
SyroMalankara said:
I’m not sure what this verse is in regard to - isn’t your prophet Bahaullah or the Bab contradicting this verse? Also, just because Muhammad says his chapter is the best and you must disprove it by showing his followers a similar text that they judge – of course they will judge their prophets as the best. Isn’t this why the Bab and Bahaullah are rejected by all Muslims?

Is the Koran a recitation or a written text? If recitation - what criteria are you using to judge what else is “like it”?

The followers of the Bagavad Gita, Zoroastar, Confucius, and every other ‘holy book’ say the same thing about their own texts.
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There is not contradiction. A key in understanding the Trinity is an understanding of the last sentence you posted above.

Yes all the Holy Texts are the Standard for Mankind, they are all from God. One key as to the inability of man to produce verses like them is in the ability to attract the Souls of Men.

Compare the writings of God and the Souls that are then Attracted and the Longevity of that attraction against the Writings of Man.

The pure Word attracts Souls and remains for all time. As we move away from the word with man adding or giving their own views the less the people are attracted and the less the longevity of the Word.

Of course a lifetime of discussion on but this one topic can be had, the meaning of the trinity much broader than we can know.

Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
There is not contradiction. A key in understanding the Trinity is an understanding of the last sentence you posted above.

Yes all the Holy Texts are the Standard for Mankind, they are all from God. One key as to the inability of man to produce verses like them is in the ability to attract the Souls of Men.

Compare the writings of God and the Souls that are then Attracted and the Longevity of that attraction against the Writings of Man.

The pure Word attracts Souls and remains for all time. As we move away from the word with man adding or giving their own views the less the people are attracted and the less the longevity of the Word.

Of course a lifetime of discussion on but this one topic can be had, the meaning of the trinity much broader than we can know.

Regards Tony
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Of course, the fact that writings of a sci-fi writer can turn into self-proclaimed ‘holy books’ and can attract wealthy followers and propogate that faith-sometimes-deeded-cult proves 🤷… something.
 
SyroMalankara said:
Of course, the fact that writings of a sci-fi writer can turn into self-proclaimed ‘holy books’ and can attract wealthy followers and propogate that faith-sometimes-deeded-cult proves 🤷… something.
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When Tony says “attracts the souls of men” he is not talking about Hollywood movies which also attract a cult following yet produce no fruits.

Look at the fruits. Were saints produced that stand as emblems of humility and service to humanity? Yes, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha’i Faith have produced innumerable souls who could be considered as such.

That’s the difference…

.
 
Servant19 said:
When Tony says “attracts the souls of men” he is not talking about Hollywood movies which also attract a cult following yet produce no fruits.

Look at the fruits. Were saints produced that stand as emblems of humility and service to humanity? Yes, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha’i Faith have produced innumerable souls who could be considered as such.

That’s the difference…

.
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I was referring to L.Ron Hubbard’s sci-fi creation turned religion… Scientology
 
SyroMalankara said:
I was referring to L.Ron Hubbard’s sci-fi creation turned religion… Scientology
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If you reread my response, you will also see that mans writings that include some of the Words of God, do have a limited influence. The key here is Limited.

In the end what is of man dissolves back to the dust it came from, what is of and from God Remains is renewed and will always flourish.

God bless and Regards Tony.
 
MartinJordan said:
Syro, a small tangent…what is your opinion of the “Sathya Sai Baba movement is inspired by South Indian guru Sathya Sai Baba who taught the unity of all religions.”?

I’m not sure what is their teaching of the Trinity. Do you know by any chance?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba_movement

MJ
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Sathya Sai Baba was very much a Hindu (performing many Hindu rituals himself), so his belief in the Trinity is that of Hinduism. However, like almost all Hindus, he believed in the validity of all major religions. See attached symbol of the organization
https://www.srisathyasai.org.uk/images/sathyasaiorg_1_1.png
 
openmind77 said:
Sathya Sai Baba was very much a Hindu (performing many Hindu rituals himself), so his belief in the Trinity is that of Hinduism. However, like almost all Hindus, he believed in the validity of all major religions. See attached symbol of the organization
https://www.srisathyasai.org.uk/images/sathyasaiorg_1_1.png
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Ok noted thanks. I know several of his devotees but I don’t talk religion with them). There are in 130 countries, arguably about 80 million followers. I find them kind and hardworking…quite fruitful so, let’s not forget to add them.

MJ
 
openmind77 said:
Sathya Sai Baba was very much a Hindu (performing many Hindu rituals himself), so his belief in the Trinity is that of Hinduism. However, like almost all Hindus, he believed in the validity of all major religions. See attached symbol of the organization
https://www.srisathyasai.org.uk/images/sathyasaiorg_1_1.png
Click to expand...
In 1963, Sathya Sai Baba declared that he was an incarnation of Shiva-Sakti. He also said he was a reincarnation of Dattatreya, an incarnation of Trimurti.
 
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