Understanding the Trinity

[Peter_Plato]

Sources of Teachings of Church are not from scripture and those explanations cannot be explained by physical experiments and these are beyond of our comprehensions.So I can produce many such fantastic thoughts too but all these would conflict with eternal attributes of God as three gods doctrine do.

Why should those “explanations” have to be “explained by physical experiments?” God is not limited to the physical. He is not a physical being with physical limitations. Perhaps they are beyond our “comprehensions,” but that would be expected of God. That wouldn’t be expected from a man-made god who WOULD be limited to our “comprehensions.”

 

[Peter_Plato]

I have asked how three distinct persons can reconcile in everything?

God is perfect Love. And because God is perfect Love he is perfectly lovable by and in all three Persons.

His will is perfect and he is omniscient, What is left to "reconcile? Who would have better knowledge or a better or more worthy idea to be reconciled?

You don’t think God is Love?

You don’t think God is omniscient?

Oh, I forgot, we can’t prove omniscience by “physical experiments,” can we? So that, too, would be a “fantastic thought?”

 

[hasantas]

Why should those “explanations” have to be “explained by physical experiments?” God is not limited to the physical. He is not a physical being with physical limitations. Perhaps they are beyond our “comprehensions,” but that would be expected of God. That wouldn’t be expected from a man-made god who WOULD be limited to our “comprehensions.”

Would you expect your God to be car or a tree or anything else? Man is consisted of matter and God is not consist of matter.

If Jesus had married and had childs so what would be conditions of those childs? Would they have divine essence? You see we can never concile incarnation with eternal attributes but we cannot refute totaly because it is beyond of time and matter.

Another question how could a divine soul(essence) and mortal soul settle in same body? And also yet divine essence is out of matter and time! And those mortal and eternal souls(essence) reconcile but how?

So we can make noncommittal answers like if God wish He can do everything!

 

[Servant19]

Perhaps. In many countries women have the “right” to kill their unborn children. I suppose, to be equal, men should also have the right to kill their unborn children. Do you think Baha’u’llah revels in that equality if he thought that “men and women should be equal?” Perhaps being “equal” in many senses is not such an important thing without considering the consequences of “equality.”

The killing of unborn children is forbidden in the Baha’i Faith

No amount of equality will give rise to the harm of innocents

Baha’u’llah strictly forbids any interpretation of His teachings in a manner that may result in the death of innocent people.

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[Peter_Plato]

The killing of unborn children is forbidden in the Baha’i Faith

No amount of equality will give rise to the harm of innocents

Baha’u’llah strictly forbids any interpretation of His teachings in a manner that may result in the death of innocent people.

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So “equality” isn’t necessarily a good thing, then?

Recall that my post was in response to someone who claimed that…

“Baha’u’llah urged that men and women should be equal.. this is still not realized but today women have more rights than they had prior to the nineteenth century.”

I would, by the way, argue that “having more rights” is not necessarily a good thing. Which brings us back to the “right” of women to kill their unborn children.

So two questions:

Is it necessarily a good thing for men and women be equal in all respects and all times?

Is granting men and women MORE rights always the best policy?

Seems a tad thoughtless for Baha’u’llah to have answered “Yes,” to both those questions. Makes me think he was just wrong in making such a claim.

 

[Servant19]

I am not disputing that the Bab and Bahaullah were holy, spiritual men of their time. Bab’s life may be similar to Jesus, but that hardly makes him ‘Jesus’ himself. And attributing the creation of the UN and the International Courts to Bahaullah is carrying it way too far. I doubt if FDR and the allies had even heard of Bahaullah when they decided to create the UN.

But I see the Bahai perspective - you are trying to match the lives of Bab and Bahaullah to the Muslim prophecy of the return of Jesus and Mahdi.

Frankly, they do not fit the prophecy - both Bab and Bahaullah have had very little influence on world affairs - spiritually or socially.

Also, the prophecy states that the Mahdi will appear before Jesus, so the order of Bab/Bahaullah’s two lives (if they are Jesus/Mahdi respectively) is incorrect

Openmind, you really need to read more on the subject from a Baha’i perspective

The Bab was the return of Mahdi in one aspect and Jesus Christ in another. This is fully explained in the Baha’i Writings.

Baha’u’llah was the Son of God returned in one aspect and the Father in another aspect.

If the principle is thoroughly explored and studied, the entire panorama of religious history opens up before ones eyes with an unerring sense of oneness under God.

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[Servant19]

So “equality” isn’t necessarily a good thing, then?

Recall that my post was in response to someone who claimed that…

“Baha’u’llah urged that men and women should be equal.. this is still not realized but today women have more rights than they had prior to the nineteenth century.”

The definition of the word “equality” is important

The Baha’i perspective is explored briefly here:
bic.org/statements/equality-men-women-new-reality#CdUWploMQJrLhTLM.97

The Baha’i Faith does not encourage the right to ABSOLUTE liberty…equality does not mean absolute liberty to do as you wish



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[Servant19]

When Saul was persecuting the early Church, the body of Jesus’ disciples, Jesus said, “Saul, why are you persecuting me?” That means, according to Jesus, that the Church IS Jesus.

Paul later pointed out in his letters that the Church is the mystical Body of Jesus animated by the Holy Spirit. Ergo, the Church IS the Body of Jesus on Earth and has been since Jesus sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Hi Peter, I’ve highlighted the most critical part for you.

The Bab is not the “Body” of Jesus, He is the Word made flesh.

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[Servant19]

What should I understand from that “The Son is begotten by the Father”? May I think that Son was begotten later by Father but not from past eternity?

What kind of gods Father and Son are in whom another god emerged(Holy Spirit)?

All these explanations are established by people but not from scripture and these are not enough to explain or support Trinity.

If somene is begotten then that subject cannot be god or eternal. If someone(some god) proceed through another then it cannot be called eternal or divine. Holy Spirit was send and proceed by God but not from God(from eternal essence). And yet I cannot understand three persons in one personality doctrine!

If there should be such thing(Trinity) it was be told in Torah, Bible, Qur’an and in explanations of prophets. As you agree it wa established by Church through strained interpretations.

I have enough knowledges why God created earth but what I asked is that: How three distinct eternal persons can think same thing in very details? Can I and you think everything in same way but in very very details? Do not gods disagree in anything? Three eternal persons do not decide and set everything from eternal. Three equal commander cannot not an army even command a soldier in order because everyone will command in different way. If there is no different idea or act then why call it three but not one?

I have asked how three distinct persons can reconcile in everything?

Did Jesus lose His all divine attributes when He became man(!) because He was usedt to ask from Father.

Sources of Teachings of Church are not from scripture and those explanations cannot be explained by physical experiments and these are beyond of our comprehensions.So I can produce many such fantastic thoughts too but all these would conflict with eternal attributes of God as three gods doctrine do.

Hasantas can you please explain to us what Islam teaches about the statement Jesus made, “Before Abraham was, I am”

Thank you

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[openmind77]

Openmind, you really need to read more on the subject from a Baha’i perspective

The Bab was the return of Mahdi in one aspect and Jesus Christ in another. This is fully explained in the Baha’i Writings.

Baha’u’llah was the Son of God returned in one aspect and the Father in another aspect.

If the principle is thoroughly explored and studied, the entire panorama of religious history opens up before ones eyes with an unerring sense of oneness under God.

.

Sorry, I seemed to have been confused - I thought Bahaullah was supposed to fulfill the Islamic prophesy regarding the Mahdi - apparently I have been wrong all along.

So according to Bahais, the Bab was both the Mahdi as well as Jesus?

That contradicts all Islamic prophecies regarding the Mahdi - both Shia and Sunni prophecies talk about the Mahdi and Jesus being two separate persons. So looks like the Bab was a total aberration according to Islamic beliefs. (I thought Bahaism is a continuation of the Islamic revelation, but does not look like it).

The Bahaullah incarnation is even more confusing - has there ever been a prophecy regarding an incarnation of the Father (other than by the Bab)? Looks like Bahaullah is a self-made ‘Son of God’ not predicted by anyone else.

 

[Vico]

Hi Peter, I’ve highlighted the most critical part for you.

The Bab is not the “Body” of Jesus, He is the Word made flesh.

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Your statement is based on the concept that the Word may be made flesh multiple times. It is possible to be a partaker or the divine through the Holy Spirit, but without a dual nature.

That is where the conflict with Christianity comes from which teaches that there is only one incarnation of the Word - the Word made flesh (in Christ one person subsists in two natures).

The body of Jesus is resurrected and has continued since then to the present moment since the Glorious Ressurection.

 

[TonyBS]

Your statement is based on the concept that the Word may be made flesh multiple times. It is possible to be a partaker or the divine through the Holy Spirit, but without a dual nature.

That is where the conflict with Christianity comes from which teaches that there is only one incarnation of the Word - the Word made flesh (in Christ one person subsists in two natures).

The body of Jesus is resurrected and has continued since then to the present moment since the Glorious Ressurection.

This is where the “Trinity” must be looked at with a different “Frame of Reference”.

The oneness and Unity of God and His Prophets becomes manifest.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

Sorry, I seemed to have been confused - I thought Bahaullah was supposed to fulfill the Islamic prophesy regarding the Mahdi - apparently I have been wrong all along.

So according to Bahais, the Bab was both the Mahdi as well as Jesus?

That contradicts all Islamic prophecies regarding the Mahdi - both Shia and Sunni prophecies talk about the Mahdi and Jesus being two separate persons. So looks like the Bab was a total aberration according to Islamic beliefs. (I thought Bahaism is a continuation of the Islamic revelation, but does not look like it).

The Bahaullah incarnation is even more confusing - has there ever been a prophecy regarding an incarnation of the Father (other than by the Bab)? Looks like Bahaullah is a self-made ‘Son of God’ not predicted by anyone else.

Yes you are still confused, but this is not the place to answer these questions.

To me Muhammad gave the answers to how we should look at God. That is there is only One God, His Holy Spirit and the Seal of the Prophets was Muhammad.

There was One God, His Holy Spirit and Jesus the Christ.

God bless all with a wonderful Christ Mass.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

The UN pushes the “right” of women to abortions and contraception. What were you saying about THAT “theory” of equality being far from God’s?

You are using an outdated worldly view of what Equality means.

True Liberty existith in mans submission unto the laws of God. All Equality is bound within those laws.

Those Laws have to be studied to understand Equality and Liberty.

Much of Liberty as displayed in America is but a pernicious influence. This is also applicable to Equality as well.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

So “equality” isn’t necessarily a good thing, then?

Recall that my post was in response to someone who claimed that…

“Baha’u’llah urged that men and women should be equal.. this is still not realized but today women have more rights than they had prior to the nineteenth century.”

I would, by the way, argue that “having more rights” is not necessarily a good thing. Which brings us back to the “right” of women to kill their unborn children.

So two questions:

Is it necessarily a good thing for men and women be equal in all respects and all times?

Is granting men and women MORE rights always the best policy?

Seems a tad thoughtless for Baha’u’llah to have answered “Yes,” to both those questions. Makes me think he was just wrong in making such a claim.

These questions can be answered, off topic here though.

If you wish to start a thread on Liberty and Equality, we would be happy to answer questions.

Regards Tony

 

[openmind77]

Yes you are still confused, but this is not the place to answer these questions.

To me Muhammad gave the answers to how we should look at God. That is there is only One God, His Holy Spirit and the Seal of the Prophets was Muhammad.

There was One God, His Holy Spirit and Jesus the Christ.

God bless all with a wonderful Christ Mass.

Regards Tony

Sounds you don’t really believe in either the Christian concept of the Trinity or the Hindu concept of three separate uncreated Gods.

But you still believe the Bab was both the Mahdi and Jesus? And that Bahaullah is the Father?

 

[TonyBS]

Sounds you don’t really believe in either the Christian concept of the Trinity or the Hindu concept of three separate uncreated Gods.

But you still believe the Bab was both the Mahdi and Jesus? And that Bahaullah is the Father?

Personal I believe there is only One God and that he reveals His Holy Spirit through His chosen Messengers, in each age when God So pleases, with What message He deems to give.

That is the Trinity in a nutshell. Each can be the first and last, each can be called by all names or each can be known as God. For it is only by and through them we can know God.

The other questions are off topic and do not new to be explored here.

Logical, Simple the path to mans Unity. Regards Tony

 

[openmind77]

Personal I believe there is only One God and that he reveals His Holy Spirit through His chosen Messengers, in each age when God So pleases, with What message He deems to give.

That is the Trinity in a nutshell. Each can be the first and last, each can be called by all names or each can be known as God. For it is only by and through them we can know God.

Your Trinity seems to have only two persons (assuming Messengers are not Gods and so not part of the Trinity)

The other questions are off topic and do not new to be explored here…

Fair enough, but my original questions about the Bab and Bahaullah were for Mr Servant.

They are not off topic because he seems to believe the two (Bab and Bahaullah) are members of the Trinity (but you apparently don’t).

So this question is for Mr Servant (not for TonyBS): how can the Bab be both the Mahdi and Jesus when the Islamic tradition clearly states that these two are separate persons? Don’t the Bahai believe in the Islamic tradition regarding the prophecy of the Mahdi?

 

[Vico]

This is where the “Trinity” must be looked at with a different “Frame of Reference”.

The oneness and Unity of God and His Prophets becomes manifest.

Regards Tony

Any unity of man with God, other than that of Jesus Christ with two natues, means partaker. So there are countless humans like that, all the saints on earth, in purgatory, and heaven.

 

[TonyBS]

Any unity of man with God, other than that of Jesus Christ with two natues, means partaker. So there are countless humans like that, all the saints on earth, in purgatory, and heaven.

You have not understood what was said, neither did opennmind77.

The answers to this have been posted way back at the start of this discission, thus do not need to be repeated.Thus I now bow out of this thread.

God bless all and regards Tony