Understanding the Trinity

[MartinJordan]

Indeed St. Paul did Martin

So it is agreed that the Son of God was manifested in the human form of David, then later in the human form of Jesus. And you say that God just decided to stop there, we understand

.

He humbled himself to be born of a woman. From the LINE of David, Root of Jesse. Flesh and blood. David was not God.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Aquinas wrote in Aquinas’s Shorter Summa:

66 Identity between the relative properties and the divine essence

The relative properties must be the divine essence itself. For the relative properties are precisely the subsistent persons. But a person subsisting in the Godhead cannot be something other than the divine essence; and the divine essence is God Himself, as was shown above. 64 Therefore the relative properties are in all reality identical with the divine essence.

Moreover, whatever is in a being besides its essence, is in it accidentally. But there cannot be any accidents in God, as was pointed out above. 65 Accordingly, the relative properties are not really distinct from the divine essence.

St. Gregory of Nyssa in his Sermon on the Beatitudes states:

“…The Divine Nature, whatever It may be in Itself, surpasses every mental concept. For It is altogether inaccessible to reasoning and conjecture, nor has there been found any human faculty capable of perceiving the incomprehensible; for we cannot devise a means of understanding inconceivable things. Therefore, the great Apostle calls His ways unsearchable, meaning by this that the way that leads to knowledge of the Divine Essence is inaccessible to thought. That is to say, none of those who have passed through life before us has made known to the intelligence so much as a trace by which might be known what is above knowledge…”

Can I ask you how you come to believe that St.Thomas knows what he is stating as truth when it comes to the Divine Essence?

In order to attribute the Divine essence to anything, one has to have an intimate knowledge of this essence, which is impossible…according to St.Gregory.

How does St.Thomas know otherwise?

It seems that so many know about the Divine essence after Jesus ascended. How is that?

.

 

[Servant19]

He humbled himself to be born of a woman. From the LINE of David, Root of Jesse. Flesh and blood. David was not God.

MJ

Indeed He did.

There is no evidence to say that in order to be a Son of God, you must be God.
David was a human manifestation of the Son
What their relevant stations are is up to them to reveal to mankind…

.

 

[Vico]

St. Gregory of Nyssa in his Sermon on the Beatitudes states:

“…The Divine Nature, whatever It may be in Itself, surpasses every mental concept. For It is altogether inaccessible to reasoning and conjecture, nor has there been found any human faculty capable of perceiving the incomprehensible; for we cannot devise a means of understanding inconceivable things. Therefore, the great Apostle calls His ways unsearchable, meaning by this that the way that leads to knowledge of the Divine Essence is inaccessible to thought. That is to say, none of those who have passed through life before us has made known to the intelligence so much as a trace by which might be known what is above knowledge…”

Can I ask you how you come to believe that St.Thomas knows what he is stating as truth when it comes to the Divine Essence?

In order to attribute the Divine essence to anything, one has to have an intimate knowledge of this essence, which is impossible…according to St.Gregory.

How does St.Thomas know otherwise?

It seems that so many know about the Divine essence after Jesus ascended. How is that?

.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:42 God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, image-bound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God–“the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable”–with our human representations.16 Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God.

43 Admittedly, in speaking about God like this, our language is using human modes of expression; nevertheless it really does attain to God himself, though unable to express him in his infinite simplicity. Likewise, we must recall that “between Creator and creature no similitude can be expressed without implying an even greater dissimilitude”;17 and that "concerning God, we cannot grasp what he is, but only what he is not, and how other beings stand in relation to him."18

I assent to the dogmas of faith, taught by the Catholic Church, that The blessed in Heaven posses an immediate intuitive knowledge of the Divine Essence yet God’s Essence is incomprehensible even to the blessed in Heaven, and that In God there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost each possessing the one numerical Divine Essence. Since faith is a divine gift, I receive that from God through His grace.

St. Thomas Aquinas states in Summa Theologica Q1:
Reply to Objection 1. Although we cannot know in what consists the essence of God, nevertheless in this science we make use of His effects, either of nature or of grace, in place of a definition, in regard to whatever is treated of in this science concerning God; even as in some philosophical sciences we demonstrate something about a cause from its effect, by taking the effect in place of a definition of the cause.

 

[hasantas]

I personally am very much convinced that Baha’u’llah is unfathomably huge. (Nothing minor at all . ) He has heralded a new cycle of religious history that will last 500,000 years.

Everyone else who has not studied Him or His Revelation are the ones who will be surprised.

The age of forced conversion as seen in the Dispensations of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (at various times in history which caused widespread growth) has ended. Those that recognise Baha’u’llah are cherished for they were not forced, or fell into a belief, they EARNESTLY SAUGHT God and recognised the pure essence of His love

***“This is the Day that shall not be followed by night” ***- Baha’u’llah

I challenge God (that’s how confident I am in Baha’u’llah) to show me, I challenge Him to show me that Baha’u’llah was not the greatest Manifestation of God in religious history from time immemorial.

The new heaven and the new earth is here and I cannot take enough of the gushing Fountain-Head of life-giving waters that are immersing me with His love.

The challenge is in place (I’ve done my work, and God knows it, I’ve saught Him with my heart and soul).

.

There have been many men like Baha’u’llah. And there have been many superstitious movements and sects in Islam which maintain and claim “Hulul” which is kind of incarnation like Christians believe that God got flesh and body as Son.

I do not think earth has 500000 years but the end of earth is very close.

There is the way to interpret scriptures is fantastic ways. But do not forget scriptures are in way of people speaking so God use some metaphors which will be wrong if it be understood in literal.

Bahai cannot be a distinct religion but maybe a sect or a movement which have some wrongs.

Openmind is Hindu source of which is not certain yet he can go more right than you.

You use many statements and words and you had established an imaginary theology without bases which make it hard to say something.

 

[Servant19]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:42 God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, image-bound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God–“the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable”–with our human representations.16 Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God.

43 Admittedly, in speaking about God like this, our language is using human modes of expression; nevertheless it really does attain to God himself, though unable to express him in his infinite simplicity. Likewise, we must recall that “between Creator and creature no similitude can be expressed without implying an even greater dissimilitude”;17 and that "concerning God, we cannot grasp what he is, but only what he is not, and how other beings stand in relation to him."18

I assent to the dogmas of faith, taught by the Catholic Church, that The blessed in Heaven posses an immediate intuitive knowledge of the Divine Essence yet God’s Essence is incomprehensible even to the blessed in Heaven, and that In God there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost each possessing the one numerical Divine Essence. Since faith is a divine gift, I receive that from God through His grace.

St. Thomas Aquinas states in Summa Theologica Q1:
Reply to Objection 1. Although we cannot know in what consists the essence of God, nevertheless in this science we make use of His effects, either of nature or of grace, in place of a definition, in regard to whatever is treated of in this science concerning God; even as in some philosophical sciences we demonstrate something about a cause from its effect, by taking the effect in place of a definition of the cause.

Wonderful summary of my thoughts Vico. Indeed it is a de fide teaching that Gods essence is incomprehensible even to the blessed in heaven.

How, therefore can anyone state that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are “each possessing the one numerical Divine Essence” unless that anyone is Jesus Christ Himself?

Did Jesus ever state that He, the Father and the Holy Spirit all possess the one Divine Essence?

.

 

[Servant19]

There have been many men like Baha’u’llah. And there have been many superstitious movements and sects in Islam which maintain and claim “Hulul” which is kind of incarnation like Christians believe that God got flesh and body as Son.

I do not think earth has 500000 years but the end of earth is very close.

There is the way to interpret scriptures is fantastic ways. But do not forget scriptures are in way of people speaking so God use some metaphors which will be wrong if it be understood in literal.

Bahai cannot be a distinct religion but maybe a sect or a movement which have some wrongs.

Openmind is Hindu source of which is not certain yet he can go more right than you.

You use many statements and words and you had established an imaginary theology without bases which make it hard to say something.

Thank you for your thought hasantas

I disagree on all counts. The Baha’i religion is not a sect/movement, but an independent religion as attested to by the UN, and every nation on earth, except Muslim countries barring Indonesia (which recently recognised the Baha’i Faith as an approved independent religion)
It is more widespread than Islam, the second most widespread after Christianity.
Growing at a rapid rate, working to develop communities the world over.
In fact, the UN rarely makes socio-economic development statements without consulting the Baha’i International Community.

Secondly, all scientists know that the earth will last longer than 500,000 years…

.

 

[hasantas]

Thank you for your thought hasantas

I disagree on all counts. The Baha’i religion is not a sect/movement, but an independent religion as attested to by the UN, and every nation on earth, except Muslim countries barring Indonesia (which recently recognised the Baha’i Faith as an approved independent religion)
It is more widespread than Islam, the second most widespread after Christianity.
Growing at a rapid rate, working to develop communities the world over.
In fact, the UN rarely makes socio-economic development statements without consulting the Baha’i International Community.

Secondly, all scientists know that the earth will last longer than 500,000 years…

.

Bahai is not independent while it took from all religion and try to reconcile all religion. Bahai was established by Bab(Mirza Ali Muhammad) who was a Muslim and said he was Mahdi and later claimed to be successor of all prophets and got out of Islam and established an invalid sect. He called Himself “Bab” which is an Arabic word mean “gate” and his follower Bahaullah (Mirza Husayin Ali Nuri) used Islamic terminology but later got away from Islam.

Bahai do not believe in Day of Judgement because you say earth will last more than 500000 years. And Bahais do not believe in Paradise and Hell which conflict with all divine religions.

Bahaullah took from invalid sects like Batıni, Hurufi etc.

Bahaullah claimed that God manifested and did dwell(Hulul) in him which is not true.

There have been many prophets between Moses and Jesus but they did got revealed a new scripture. God give new scripture when the last scripture is too old.

Bahais say that Bahaullah said so or Bahaullah wished so etc which prove that the words are not from God.

The real fulfillment of happiness in not on the world but in life to come(Ahirat) but Bahais do not believe that.

 

[hasantas]

St. Thomas Aquinas write in Summa Theologica, Q29, Article 2. Whether “person” is the same as hypostasis, subsistence, and essence?

Reply to Objection 2. As we say “three persons” plurally in God, and “three subsistences,” so the Greeks say “three hypostases.” But because the word “substance,” which, properly speaking, corresponds in meaning to “hypostasis,” is used among us in an equivocal sense, since it sometimes means essence, and sometimes means hypostasis, in order to avoid any occasion of error, it was thought preferable to use “subsistence” for hypostasis, rather than “substance.”

newadvent.org/summa/1029.htm

St. Thomas Aquinas said God is one but God may be plural in relations. And he call these relations Father, Son and Holy Spirit and regard these relations distinct personality. Do not that mean plural persons and plural gods? But Christians say to believe in one God!

And St. Thomas Aquinas said Father is creator and Father had begotten Son later. Do not that mean Son was created later so Son cannot be God and eternal and Son cannot have same essence with God? Because the eternal essence do not change by time. If eternal essence do not change then how can we say that the eternal essence had incarnated? Is eternal essence dependent on time and matter?

Do eternal essence create another eternal essence? If eternal essence can be created so how can it be eternal and divine?

Thomas Aquinas used very difficult methods with philosphy which is not fair for common people but religion is for all people so it should be more easy to be understood by people. And it should not be hidden through mysteries!

 

[MartinJordan]

Faith is one and we both believe in same God although we do not agree on attributes of God. I suppose that you say God is three in one as a result God is one on which we both agree. So your assumption of three gods is to be an attribute of God ofcourse which is not true for me.

I do not understand you insisting on me to provide Islamic tradition for Trinity. I said that Islamic scholars had criticed Trinity in light of Qur’an which is main source of Islam and it’s tradition. There is no any knowledge in Hadiths as much I know for trinity. And most of general Muslims do not have accurate knowledges about trinity albeit neither Christians themselves have not more as much I can see. .

I insist because how can there be dialogue today when you as a Muslim (of today) don’t provide Traditional Muslim discussions with Christians in the early days of Islam. You need to have records passed down.

MJ

 

[eddie_too]

where in the teachings of the bab and Bahaullah did they refer to “the Incarnate Word” in those three words?

since Bahaullah dictated literally hundreds of thousands of words, it would not be strange if somewhere among them a dedicated follower might imagine that Bahaullah can be interpreted as referring to “the Incarnate Word” of the Christian faith.

I am more interested in the question of whether or not the bab or Bahaullah used the exact words of “the Incarnate Word”.

if either did, where can it be found in their writings.

if neither did, drawing the concept from the hundreds of thousands of words they produced is pretty much meaningless from a logical or theological viewpoint.

 

[Servant19]

where in the teachings of the bab and Bahaullah did they refer to “the Incarnate Word” in those three words?

since Bahaullah dictated literally hundreds of thousands of words, it would not be strange if somewhere among them a dedicated follower might imagine that Bahaullah can be interpreted as referring to “the Incarnate Word” of the Christian faith.

I am more interested in the question of whether or not the bab or Bahaullah used the exact words of “the Incarnate Word”.

if either did, where can it be found in their writings.

if neither did, drawing the concept from the hundreds of thousands of words they produced is pretty much meaningless from a logical or theological viewpoint.

“The Word which the Most Faithful (God) wrote hath appeared. It hath indeed descended into the form of Man in this time. Blessed is the Lord who is the Father! He hath come with His most mighty Power among the nations: turn toward Him, O concourse of the good! The Father hath come, and that which hath been promised unto you in the Kingdom is accomplished. This is a Word which was concealed behind the veil of Might, and when the promised time came it shone forth from the horizon of the (Divine) Will with manifest signs.”

                            - Baha'u'llah

.

 

[Servant19]

Bahai is not independent while it took from all religion and try to reconcile all religion. Bahai was established by Bab(Mirza Ali Muhammad) who was a Muslim and said he was Mahdi and later claimed to be successor of all prophets and got out of Islam and established an invalid sect. He called Himself “Bab” which is an Arabic word mean “gate” and his follower Bahaullah (Mirza Husayin Ali Nuri) used Islamic terminology but later got away from Islam.

Bahai do not believe in Day of Judgement because you say earth will last more than 500000 years. And Bahais do not believe in Paradise and Hell which conflict with all divine religions.

Bahaullah took from invalid sects like Batıni, Hurufi etc.

Bahaullah claimed that God manifested and did dwell(Hulul) in him which is not true.

There have been many prophets between Moses and Jesus but they did got revealed a new scripture. God give new scripture when the last scripture is too old.

Bahais say that Bahaullah said so or Bahaullah wished so etc which prove that the words are not from God.

The real fulfillment of happiness in not on the world but in life to come(Ahirat) but Bahais do not believe that.

Again hasantas, there are a lot of fallacies and content from Baha’i “hate websites” in this post.

It is outside of the subject of this thread, so for the sanity of our dear moderator, Eric, we should leave it there …

.

 

[Techno2000]

.

“The Word which the Most Faithful (God)** wrote hath appeared**. It hath indeed descended into the form of Man in this time. Blessed is the Lord who is the Father! He hath come with His most mighty Power among the nations: turn toward Him, O concourse of the good! The Father hath come, and that which hath been promised unto you in the Kingdom is accomplished. This is a Word which was concealed behind the veil of Might, and when the promised time came it shone forth from the horizon of the (Divine) Will with manifest signs.”

• Baha’u’llah

What does… wrote hath appeared… mean ?

 

[Vico]

Wonderful summary of my thoughts Vico. Indeed it is a de fide teaching that Gods essence is incomprehensible even to the blessed in heaven.

How, therefore can anyone state that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are “each possessing the one numerical Divine Essence” unless that anyone is Jesus Christ Himself?

Did Jesus ever state that He, the Father and the Holy Spirit all possess the one Divine Essence?

.

Dogmas are:

• The blessed in Heaven possess an immediate intuitive knowledge of the Divine Essence. (e.g., " We shall be like to Him: because we shall see Him as He is" (videbimus eum, sicuti est : I John 3, 2). C£ Mt. s, 8 :18, 10; 2 Cor. 5, 7.)
• The immediate vision of God transcends the natural power of cognition of the human soul, and is therefore supernatural.
• The soul, for the immediate vision of God, requires the light of glory.
• God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in Heaven. (i.e., The finite spirit can understand the infinite Essence of God in a finite manner only.)

It is incomprehensible with natural reason. In rapture is can be experienced, but that is not natural reason, but supernatural experience. From St. Thomas Aquinas you can see that the theology is based upon divine revelation, and the natural reason is added to it. It is not expected to be an exact expression in a cataphatic system.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
243 Before his Passover, Jesus announced the sending of “another Paraclete” (Advocate), the Holy Spirit. At work since creation, having previously “spoken through the prophets”, the Spirit will now be with and in the disciples, to teach them and guide them “into all the truth”. 68 The Holy Spirit is thus revealed as another divine person with Jesus and the Father.

68 Cf. Gen 1:2; Nicene Creed (DS 150); Jn 14:17, 26; 16:13.

The Catholic Church has declared what was revealed as a dogma of faith, from ancient time (Catechism):

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. 83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” 84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.” 85

83 Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 421.
84 Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:26.
85 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804.

 

[Servant19]

“The Word which the Most Faithful (God)** wrote hath appeared**. It hath indeed descended into the form of Man in this time. Blessed is the Lord who is the Father! He hath come with His most mighty Power among the nations: turn toward Him, O concourse of the good! The Father hath come, and that which hath been promised unto you in the Kingdom is accomplished. This is a Word which was concealed behind the veil of Might, and when the promised time came it shone forth from the horizon of the (Divine) Will with manifest signs.”

• Baha’u’llah

What does… wrote hath appeared… mean ?

It means the Word has become incarnate again…

It means Jesus has returned in the glory of the Father. “The Father hath come”

.

 

[Techno2000]

It means the Word has become incarnate again…

It means Jesus has returned in the glory of the Father. “The Father hath come”

.

So the Word incarnate again and descended into the form of Man and this man was Baha’u’llah ?

 

[Servant19]

So the Word incarnate again and descended into the form of Man and this man was Baha’u’llah ?

Yes sir

.

 

[Techno2000]

Yes sir

.

Ok, so in this incarnation is Baha’u’llah the… Father or the Son, or both… and what about the Holy Spirit ?

 

[MartinJordan]

What happened to the Trinity now?

MJ