Understanding the Trinity

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When start saying that the Father is “unable to” do something, are we not limiting the Limitless?

How can a Person with infinite Will be unable to do something?

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Since there is nothing that the Trinity is dependent on, there is no external limitation. There is a limitation by identity however for identity is unchanging. The three divine Persons have only one will, and there is Perichoresis (circumincession) of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
Thank God for free will!!

👍

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Friends don’t let Friends be duped by the Devil :

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 1 Timothy 4:1

Servant19 , wake up… Baha’u’llah was channing Demonic spirits, this is where his teaching come from, he was heavily involved in the occult.
.youtube.com/watch?v=XuXdzU32V8g

 
Friends don’t let Friends be duped by the Devil :

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 1 Timothy 4:1

Servant19 , wake up… Baha’u’llah was channing Demonic spirits, this is where his teaching come from, he was heavily involved in the occult.
.youtube.com/watch?v=XuXdzU32V8g

I seems very clear to me that you have no idea what your own Scriptures say about the devil.

It is impossible that Baha’u’llah was channeling demonic spirits. The Bible says so.

What you need to do is become a more learned Catholic 🙂

It’s your free will, thank God for this gift!!!

Attitudes like the one posted above has no place in heaven…

You should also ask yourself why the current Pope is inviting those that you call “followers of the devil” to the Vatican as his cherished guests…

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Since there is nothing that the Trinity is dependent on, there is no external limitation. There is a limitation by identity however for identity is unchanging. The three divine Persons have only one will, and there is Perichoresis (circumincession) of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
You say there is no limitation on the Trinity, but you also say that the Trinity has no choice but to beget. That is a limitation surely Vico??

I understand that you are putting your heart and soul into your faith and you cannot fathom disbelieving what is essentially your spiritual makeup, but one need not abandon God in order to accept a reasonable theology over a glaringly contradictory one.

God is loving, at all times, and He will always embrace you as you search for His love, borne in Truth, Divine Truth, not man-made truth.

If the Trinity has limitations on its Will, it immediately ceases to be God.
This statement is reasonable and logical

It is a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church that GODS DIVINE WILL IS INFINITE

It is only as a result of another de fide teaching of the Catholic Church, namely, GOD IS ABSOLUTELY FAITHFUL, that the Father begets a Son, not that He is “unable to choose not to do it”

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You say there is no limitation on the Trinity, but you also say that the Trinity has no choice but to beget. That is a limitation surely Vico??

I understand that you are putting your heart and soul into your faith and you cannot fathom disbelieving what is essentially your spiritual makeup, but one need not abandon God in order to accept a reasonable theology over a glaringly contradictory one.

God is loving, at all times, and He will always embrace you as you search for His love, borne in Truth, Divine Truth, not man-made truth.

If the Trinity has limitations on its Will, it immediately ceases to be God.
This statement is reasonable and logical

It is a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church that GODS DIVINE WILL IS INFINITE

It is only as a result of another de fide teaching of the Catholic Church, namely, GOD IS ABSOLUTELY FAITHFUL, that the Father begets a Son, not that He is “unable to choose not to do it”

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That dogma on divine will is based upon the created will. “Since the will is a pure perfection it is predicated of God formally, but also infinitely and eminently. The categorical imperative also of the moral law points to a will which controls humanity.” - Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott, p. 44

Also we have on the dogma of faithfulness of God, means “Divine truth can neither deceive nor be deceived.” From Vatican I: “We believe, that revelation is true, not indeed because the intrinsic truth of the mysteries is clearly seen by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Who reveals them, for He can neither deceive nor be deceived.”

The Christian theology is not glaringly contradictory on this matter. The Catholic teaching of the subject is shown in the topic of Omnipotence in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Omnipotence is the power of God to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible. These last words of the definition do not imply any imperfection, since a power that extends to every possibility must be perfect. The universality of the object of the Divine power is not merely relative but absolute, so that the true nature of omnipotence is not clearly expressed by saying that God can do all things that are possible to Him; it requires the further statement that all things are possible to God. The intrinsically impossible is the self-contradictory, and its mutually exclusive elements could result only in nothingness. “Hence,” says Thomas (Summa I, Q. xxv, a. 3), “it is more exact to say that the intrinsically impossible is incapable of production, than to say that God cannot produce it.” To include the contradictory within the range of omnipotence, as does the Calvinist Vorstius, is to acknowledge the absurd as an object of the Divine intellect, and nothingness as an object of the Divine will and power. “God can do all things the accomplishment of which is a manifestation of power,” says Hugh of St. Victor, “and He is almighty because He cannot be powerless” (De sacram., I, ii, 22).

As intrinsically impossible must be classed:

Any action on the part of God which would be out of harmony with His nature and attributes;
Any action that would simultaneously connote mutually repellent elements, e.g. a square circle, an infinite creature, etc.
 
That dogma on divine will is based upon the created will. “Since the will is a pure perfection it is predicated of God formally, but also infinitely and eminently. The categorical imperative also of the moral law points to a will which controls humanity.” - Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott, p. 44

Also we have on the dogma of faithfulness of God, means “Divine truth can neither deceive nor be deceived.” From Vatican I: “We believe, that revelation is true, not indeed because the intrinsic truth of the mysteries is clearly seen by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Who reveals them, for He can neither deceive nor be deceived.”

The Christian theology is not glaringly contradictory on this matter. The Catholic teaching of the subject is shown in the topic of Omnipotence in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Omnipotence is the power of God to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible. These last words of the definition do not imply any imperfection, since a power that extends to every possibility must be perfect. The universality of the object of the Divine power is not merely relative but absolute, so that the true nature of omnipotence is not clearly expressed by saying that God can do all things that are possible to Him; it requires the further statement that all things are possible to God. The intrinsically impossible is the self-contradictory, and its mutually exclusive elements could result only in nothingness. “Hence,” says Thomas (Summa I, Q. xxv, a. 3), “it is more exact to say that the intrinsically impossible is incapable of production, than to say that God cannot produce it.” To include the contradictory within the range of omnipotence, as does the Calvinist Vorstius, is to acknowledge the absurd as an object of the Divine intellect, and nothingness as an object of the Divine will and power. “God can do all things the accomplishment of which is a manifestation of power,” says Hugh of St. Victor, “and He is almighty because He cannot be powerless” (De sacram., I, ii, 22).

As intrinsically impossible must be classed:

Any action on the part of God which would be out of harmony with His nature and attributes;
Any action that would simultaneously connote mutually repellent elements, e.g. a square circle, an infinite creature, etc.
Thank you dear Vico

I think we generally agree in the most part.

I still cannot grasp how the Church can say “begotten but not made”, the phrase is an internal implosion of contradiction, and I cannot understand how God could be powerless in willing to not beget. Will and begetting are both verbs which means an action occurs, and as a result the action can be willed not to occur, in theory. The Son cannot beget the Father, and that is an absolute truth, and that is the difference I find hard to understand why Catholicism teaches unusually in terms of philosophy and theology. Nevertheless, we do agree that the Father begets the Son and that one does not exist without the other.

Your time in dialoguing with me is cherished. You are a wonderful example of Catholic virtue and I find joy in reading your well-informed posts.

God bless you 🙂

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I seems very clear to me that you have no idea what your own Scriptures say about the devil.

It is impossible that Baha’u’llah was channeling demonic spirits. The Bible says so.

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Servant19, where did the information from " Bahá’u’lláh Revelation writing" come from ?
 

I still cannot grasp how the Church can say “begotten but not made”, the phrase is an internal implosion of contradiction, and I cannot understand how God could be powerless in willing to not beget. Will and begetting are both verbs which means an action occurs, and as a result the action can be willed not to occur, in theory…
From St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Q27

Article 1. Whether there is procession in God?

I answer that, Divine Scripture uses, in relation to God, names which signify procession. This procession has been differently understood. Some have understood it in the sense of an effect, proceeding from its cause; so Arius took it, saying that the Son proceeds from the Father as His primary creature, and that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son as the creature of both. In this sense neither the Son nor the Holy Ghost would be true God: and this is contrary to what is said of the Son, “That . . . we may be in His true Son. This is true God” (1 John 5:20). Of the Holy Ghost it is also said, “Know you not that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost?” (1 Corinthians 6:19). Now, to have a temple is God’s prerogative. Others take this procession to mean the cause proceeding to the effect, as moving it, or impressing its own likeness on it; in which sense it was understood by Sabellius, who said that God the Father is called Son in assuming flesh from the Virgin, and that the Father also is called Holy Ghost in sanctifying the rational creature, and moving it to life. The words of the Lord contradict such a meaning, when He speaks of Himself, “The Son cannot of Himself do anything” (John 5:19); while many other passages show the same, whereby we know that the Father is not the Son. Careful examination shows that both of these opinions take procession as meaning an outward act; hence neither of them affirms procession as existing in God Himself; whereas, since procession always supposes action, and as there is an outward procession corresponding to the act tending to external matter, so there must be an inward procession corresponding to the act remaining within the agent. This applies most conspicuously to the intellect, the action of which remains in the intelligent agent. For whenever we understand, by the very fact of understanding there proceeds something within us, which is a conception of the object understood, a conception issuing from our intellectual power and proceeding from our knowledge of that object. This conception is signified by the spoken word; and it is called the word of the heart signified by the word of the voice.

As God is above all things, we should understand what is said of God, not according to the mode of the lowest creatures, namely bodies, but from the similitude of the highest creatures, the intellectual substances; while even the similitudes derived from these fall short in the representation of divine objects. Procession, therefore, is not to be understood from what it is in bodies, either according to local movement or by way of a cause proceeding forth to its exterior effect, as, for instance, like heat from the agent to the thing made hot. Rather it is to be understood by way of an intelligible emanation, for example, of the intelligible word which proceeds from the speaker, yet remains in him. In that sense the Catholic Faith understands procession as existing in God.

Article 2. Whether any procession in God can be called generation?

Objection 1. It would seem that no procession in God can be called generation. For generation is change from non-existence to existence, and is opposed to corruption; while matter is the subject of both. Nothing of all this belongs to God. Therefore generation cannot exist in God.

Reply to Objection 1. This objection is based on the idea of generation in the first sense, importing the issuing forth from potentiality to act; in which sense it is not found in God.

Objection 2. Further, procession exists in God, according to an intelligible mode, as above explained (1). But such a process is not called generation in us; therefore neither is it to be so called in God.

Reply to Objection 2. The act of human understanding in ourselves is not the substance itself of the intellect; hence the word which proceeds within us by intelligible operation is not of the same nature as the source whence it proceeds; so the idea of generation cannot be properly and fully applied to it. But the divine act of intelligence is the very substance itself of the one who understands (14, 4). The Word proceeding therefore proceeds as subsisting in the same nature; and so is properly called begotten, and Son. Hence Scripture employs terms which denote generation of living things in order to signify the procession of the divine Wisdom, namely, conception and birth; as is declared in the person of the divine Wisdom, “The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived; before the hills, I was brought forth.” (Proverbs 8:24). In our way of understanding we use the word “conception” in order to signify that in the word of our intellect is found the likeness of the thing understood, although there be no identity of nature.

newadvent.org/summa/1027.htm
 
hasantas;13539760]1) There is no answer for my question. Are Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist at same time and do three persons have an autonomous existence? If the answer is yes then how? I mean how can we say one God?
The Trinity is mystery, because the Trinity cannot be defined and fully comprehended by the human intellect. God does not accept testimony from man of who God is. Man can only give witness to what God has revealed to our humanity.

The Trinity of persons are distinct in revelation and presence. The presence of God does not reveal God’s Essence. The Essence of God does not come down to us, Essence is hidden in presence. What is consubstantial in Essence of all three person’s divine is One God and no other. Essence is eternal being divine, One God that is incomprehensible and unreachable this side of death. It is here when God revealed to Moses that He is “IAM”.

All spiritual and material things exist because IAM is existence itself.

To answer your question. The Trinity exist as One God eternally in Essence. The Trinity of persons revealed in space and time are distinct from one another in presence. We do not confuse the (Father) voice of God with the (Son) Word of God with the (Holy Spirit) Breath of God, when all three being distinct in presence is One God in eternal Essence being.

The Father (voice) is in the Son (Word) and the Son is in the Father and the Spirit (breath of God) proceeds from both the Father and the Son who makes known to our hearts what the Father sends the Son to reveal to and for our humanity.

It is in this One spiration of Love proceeding light from light, true God from true God, that God’s presence communes with the human race, without violating God’s creation (divine) laws in order that we may have eternal life.

Essence is eternity existing. No man can see God and live. Should eternity become exposed to (creation) space and time, space and time would (die) would cease to exist.

Only God can give witness of who God is. This God has revealed to our humanity in the person of the Father (voice), the Son (Word) and the Holy Spirit (breath of God) all distinct from one another in presence and revelation, One God and no other.

We do not confuse or place any contradiction to God’s divine Essence which is present tense eternally existing, with God’s presence in space and time, which is past tense. Nor do we confuse or contradict God’s revelation (procession) of who God is. We can only give witness to what God revealed of God, to our humanity.

NO one knows the Father except the Son, because the Son comes from the Father. NO one knows God except God, because God revealed His presence to our humanity in Trinity. To be baptized in the name singular Father, Son and Holy Spirit is to receive the fullness of God’s presence which does not hinder creation in any way because God reveals His presence Sacramentally.

cont;
 
cont;
  1. Son was begotten but when? Did God create Son? I do not exactly understand the meaning of being begotten!
The Father eternally begets the Son, there is never a time that the Son was not God. Our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. If God has a thought (Word)? that divine thought (Word) is begotten of God, if God speaks a Word, that Word is begotten of God, thus the thought and the Word is eternally begotten of God whether it is spoken or divine thought. For example; Genesis reveals God saying, “Let US make man in our Image”. Because God is eternal existing, when God speaks or sends His Word in eternity, that Word or the Son is sent or begotten of the Father eternally.

What follows the eternal begetting of the Son, is the Word of God, who is God from the beginning (see Jn.1;1-14), reveals God’s presence in space and time in the second person (Son) of the blessed Trinity, when the Word of God became flesh.
  1. Which essence act in body?
The Essence of God is mysteriously hidden in the presence (Trinity) of God. The Essence of God does not come down to us. Is not Love from a human heart and the conscience of the human mind hidden from our presence? Yet, we know that Love and the conscience which proceeds from man, exist in human presence. Man is created only in the image of God (Trinity). That which proceeds eternally of God is God in presence.
If divine nature never act in body then why do you say two natures?
Only the second person of the Trinity reveals God incarnate, fully human and fully divine. Although the breath of God which proceeds from the Father and Son reveals the power of God, when Jesus (Word of God) performed many miracles such as healing the sick, forgiving sin, gave sight and hearing to the blind and mute, raised the dead and calmed the storms by speaking his Word. God incarnate is the presence of God made flesh, yet the divinity of the Word never ceased to exist, because the Word is eternal.
Cannot God act and effect and feel body wtihout being incarnated?
We do not place a limit on what God can do, God is IAM. Because God is eternally a Just God, God chose not to violate His own creation laws, thus God sends His Word to take on flesh for our sake, so that we can have life eternal. Without the incarnation of God, God could save all of mankind, but that would place God’s Word and revelation in a contradiction. And we know God is never a God of contradiction or confusion.
Does Jesus have a human soul? How can eternal essence and mortal soul reconcile? Is human side of Jesus a half god so are there three and half gods? Or with human nature Jesus has a personality and with divine nature Jesus have another personality? That is very very very intricacy. Help God, Amin!
Jesus is fully human in every way except sin, Jesus is fully divine revealed in space and time incarnated presence.

The human soul is past tense existing from the present tense existing of eternity, because the soul is created by God. We do not fear man who can kill the body, but we fear God who can kill both the body and the soul. The reconciliation between the human soul and God’s Essence is Love.

Do not confuse those spiritual realities that are eternal with carnal realities of matter that all return to dust. We believe all things visible came from the invisible.

Peace be with you
 
in the beginning (before time was created) was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

the Word became flesh.

the Father and I are One.

I will send the Spirit.

baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

the ONLY Son of the Father.

all of those verses have helped us to understand the RCC’s doctrine of the Trinity.

it is indeed flattery for the non-Christian religions to struggle so hard to convince us that their teachings are in harmony with the teachings of the RCC; but, it is clear to any objective observer that most of the RCC’s teachings have to be changed by non-Christians to make them appear to agree with the non-Christian teachings.
 
I might remind everyone that Jesus Himself taught the Twelve the doctrine of the Trinity. at the same time, each of the Twelve was limited by their natural abilities to some extent and thus their reception of the Lord’s instruction is not equal in depth of understanding or in retention. however, as a group, their understanding of the Lord and His teachings far exceeded the understanding of any single apostle.

some might have better understood Jesus when He spoke of heaven and hell than they did when He spoke of the Trinity. we cannot know for sure, but we can know that each and all of us have unique perspectives on what we know. we can share much, but until we are in heaven we cannot share all.
 
in the beginning (before time was created) was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

the Word became flesh.

the Father and I are One.

I will send the Spirit.

baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

the ONLY Son of the Father.

all of those verses have helped us to understand the RCC’s doctrine of the Trinity.

it is indeed flattery for the non-Christian religions to struggle so hard to convince us that their teachings are in harmony with the teachings of the RCC; but, it is clear to any objective observer that most of the RCC’s teachings have to be changed by non-Christians to make them appear to agree with the non-Christian teachings.
Or the Frame of reference of the Believers needs to widened 😉

All you have posted as follows
  1. in the beginning (before time was created) was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
  2. the Word became flesh.
  3. the Father and I are One.
  4. I will send the Spirit.
  5. baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
  6. the ONLY Son of the Father.
Is fully believed and reconciled with the Koran and the Baha’i Writings.

The change required to see this is’ “there is only One God and all His Religions are One”.

If one wishes to make One better than the others, then God allows our Free Will to be fulfilled.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
when it is necessary to reject what the RCC teaches in order to believe the teachings of someone else, you can be sure that the non-RCC teachings do NOT come from God.

God would never ask His flock to stop believing what His Son taught them. the RCC is the only true and complete source for the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word, the ONLY Son of God.

the sheep hear His voice and follow Him. those not of His flock do not hear His voice and do not follow Him.
 
when it is necessary to reject what the RCC teaches in order to believe the teachings of someone else, you can be sure that the non-RCC teachings do NOT come from God.

God would never ask His flock to stop believing what His Son taught them. the RCC is the only true and complete source for the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word, the ONLY Son of God.

the sheep hear His voice and follow Him. those not of His flock do not hear His voice and do not follow Him.
Dear Eddie too, always Love the Passion of Your Faith 👍

A Big Yes to this “God would never ask His flock to stop believing what His Son taught them”. That Son is Jesus the Christ.

Lets look to see where Pope Francis moves the Spirit of the Church, this Pope is very inspiring.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Is fully believed and reconciled with the Koran and the Baha’i Writings.

The change required to see this is’ “there is only One God and all His Religions are One”.

God Bless and Regards Tony
Trying to incorporate RCC teachings into the Baha’i Faith is like trying to mix water and oil it won’t work.
 
The Father received His Revelation from God through the Most Great Spirit 🙂

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But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Galatians 1:8
 
“The path of Christian life is essentially a ‘Trinitarian’ path. The Holy Spirit is the one who guides us to full knowledge of the teachings of Christ, while Jesus, who came into the world to show us the Father, continues to guide us to him and to reconcile us with him”

“Everything in the Christian life revolves around the Trinitarian mystery and is accomplished according to this infinite mystery,” - Pope Francis

MJ
 
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