Understanding the Trinity

[MartinJordan]

Indeed one should not separate for as humans we are puny specks of dust, even to the human Jesus…His Divine aspect is unfathomable, but theology does explain both aspects.

In Judaism and Islam, the human aspect is focussed on more, in the Baha’i and Christian religions, the Divine aspect is emphasised, that’s all.

This thread is about understanding the Trinity. So now you are saying that The Trinity is not enough for humans? Is this what you are taught about the Christian Trinity?

I think one will love God more when all aspects are embraced and acknowledged as Truth, comprehensively. Saying that one should only acknowledge their own way is limiting ones love of God

I don’t know how you think (your human mind) believe that the Trinity does not embrace the Truth. For the sake of passing on the Tradition to our children, it is our Obligation for the Love of God and the Truth to give our Children our utmost unconditional love and that is why have our Children baptised (I have two). We need to support them with everything necessary to help them understand God loves them, thus there is nothing held back here. And we pray everyday that our children pass on the same Love and Truth to their children. There is nothing less than Love here. For the sake of good order, hope you understand what Im saying.

So when you say “specifically” I firmly believe you are asking me to limit my love of God.
I can’t limit the Limitless One…

No, I’m asking you to understand there is no limit to the Love of God and the Trinity ensures this.

Keep in mind our Citizenship is in Heaven and there is nothing greater than Heaven, where Jesus is, and he wants us to be with him. Amen.

“I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven”

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Dear Martin - Are you willing to take part in the full Baptism, which includes the Baptism of Fire.

Matthew 3:11 - “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire”.

Luke 3:16 - "John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire”.

God Bless and Regards Tony

What is your motivation that you are using the Church’s scripture put together by the Church for the Church which believes in the Trinity for me to answer?

MJ

 

[TonyBS]

What is your motivation that you are using the Church’s scripture put together by the Church for the Church which believes in the Trinity for me to answer? MJ

Understanding the Trinity as there is no closed Book.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

Understanding the Trinity as there is no closed Book.

God Bless and Regards Tony

You can provide from which authority where you get this info.?

MJ

 

[Servant19]

This thread is about understanding the Trinity. So now you are saying that The Trinity is not enough for humans? Is this what you are taught about the Christian Trinity?

Hi Martin,

Not sure how you concluded that the Trinity is not enough, it really is, but the perspective given by Christians is exclusive.
I believe that God is all-embracing and inclusive.
I believe that with sufficient exploration and humility, one will see the Trinity ALSO in Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Islam, and the Babi and Baha’i religions.
There is much more to it than Jesus is God, end of story. I’m sorry to humbly advise you but there is a whole wealth of exploration in the “Jesus is not God” perspective which Christians absolutely will not possibly dream of entertaining. It’s limiting, and I cannot limit the possible perspectives which make the wholeness of the Trinity so compellingly beautiful.

I have seen what the perspective of the “Son is not God” paradigm instills in human beings, in both Judaism and Islam and I can see that this perspective shapes a life of servitude, humility and forbearance, so it has empirical merit and validity.

I don’t know how you think (your human mind) believe that the Trinity does not embrace the Truth. For the sake of passing on the Tradition to our children, it is our Obligation for the Love of God and the Truth to give our Children our utmost unconditional love and that is why have our Children baptised (I have two). We need to support them with everything necessary to help them understand God loves them, thus there is nothing held back here. And we pray everyday that our children pass on the same Love and Truth to their children. There is nothing less than Love here. For the sake of good order, hope you understand what Im saying.

Absolutely dear Martin, you must do that for your children.

However, I must ask you, do you think that my children have even one small tiny dewdrop of doubt that God loves them?

Two weeks ago I was discussing with a close Christian friend how the Baha’i religion teaches that there is only good in Creation, nothing is evil, only “less good” (that is true love in my humble opinion btw) and I saw his children and how they were playing so beautifully together and I said that his children are such angels, innocent and pure, such vibrancy of life, and he rebuked me saying that I should not say what I was saying, because his children are nothing more than sinners,

The concept of sin is removed from Baha’i teachings Martin. True love of God comes when your child realises that God has so loved them that they are filled with gems of potential, a mine rich in gems of inestimable value, and through correct relationship with God, the Holy Spirit will enable them to unearth that gem-ful capacity to enable mankind to benefit therefrom…

My children are in no doubt that God loves them. They feel the breezes of confirmation waft over them at all times
Yet, they are not baptised in the Christian Trinity (not literally anyway) but I see them as fully baptised in the Trinity in its wholeness.

No, I’m asking you to understand there is no limit to the Love of God and the Trinity ensures this.

But the Christian Trinity denies that God would manifest again after Christianity. That is limiting the love of God in my humble opinion. How could God talk to mankind through a Human Temple through the numerous Prophets of the Old Testament and then suddenly after Jesus there is no more human Manifestation of His Word??
That is limiting dear Martin

Keep in mind our Citizenship is in Heaven and there is nothing greater than Heaven, where Jesus is, and he wants us to be with him. Amen.

Amen!!

“I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven”

MJ

Amen again. As I state already Martin, Baha’is are baptised in the nae of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and I have no doubt that should I do the Will of the Father to the best of my ability, I will not be debarred from heaven

 

[Vico]

Servant19 wrote: “But the Christian Trinity denies that God would manifest again after Christianity. That is limiting the love of God in my humble opinion. How could God talk to mankind through a Human Temple through the numerous Prophets of the Old Testament and then suddenly after Jesus there is no more human Manifestation of His Word?”

Jesus Christ is divine and human and is alive (he resurrected) not dead, and remains present on Earth in his resurrected body, through the Eucharist. As he said in the Gospel:

Matthew 28:
19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
John 14: 16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**787 **From the beginning, Jesus associated his disciples with his own life, revealed the mystery of the Kingdom to them, and gave them a share in his mission, joy, and sufferings.215 Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between him and those who would follow him:

“Abide in me, and I in you. . . . I am the vine, you are the branches.”
216 And he proclaimed a mysterious and real communion between his own body and ours:
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."217

788 When his visible presence was taken from them, Jesus did not leave his disciples orphans. He promised to remain with them until the end of time; he sent them his Spirit.218 As a result communion with Jesus has become, in a way, more intense:
“By communicating his Spirit, Christ mystically constitutes as his body those brothers of his who are called together from every nation.” 219​

 

[Moses613]

What’s important to realize is that all three Persons share in the one same divine nature or essence. In that sense, by looking at the very fundamental nature of each of the three Persons, is God One. For His very nature, which is divine, is one, even if three divine Persons who are in communion with each other happen to share in that divine essence.

So no, it isn’t three different Gods for two reasons: they’re in perfect communion with each other, and because all three share in one divine nature.

I don’t find either of these reasons helpful, personally. First of all, what does “nature” mean? For example, identical twins have 100% the same DNA. It’s as much of an identical nature as you can get with humans, but they are in no sense at all the “same” in the way that you want to claim God is One according to Catholicism.

Secondly, what does perfect communion mean? If they act identically and have an identical nature, aren’t they one? On what grounds do you divide them into two persons?

 

[Servant19]

Servant19 wrote: “But the Christian Trinity denies that God would manifest again after Christianity. That is limiting the love of God in my humble opinion. How could God talk to mankind through a Human Temple through the numerous Prophets of the Old Testament and then suddenly after Jesus there is no more human Manifestation of His Word?”

Jesus Christ is divine and human and is alive (he resurrected) not dead, and remains present on Earth in his resurrected body, through the Eucharist. As he said in the Gospel:

Matthew 28:
19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
John 14: 16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**787 **From the beginning, Jesus associated his disciples with his own life, revealed the mystery of the Kingdom to them, and gave them a share in his mission, joy, and sufferings.215 Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between him and those who would follow him:

“Abide in me, and I in you. . . . I am the vine, you are the branches.”
216 And he proclaimed a mysterious and real communion between his own body and ours:
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."217

788 When his visible presence was taken from them, Jesus did not leave his disciples orphans. He promised to remain with them until the end of time; he sent them his Spirit.218 As a result communion with Jesus has become, in a way, more intense:
“By communicating his Spirit, Christ mystically constitutes as his body those brothers of his who are called together from every nation.” 219​

Thank you for this summary Vico

May I ask you what was the purpose of Moses?

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[hasantas]

It will be good for you to furnish Islamic proof it understands how Christianity came about. Some passed down Tradition perhaps from Mohammed your prophet will be exemplary. Please provide this. For good orders sake and do it in good spirit.

MJ

The trinity is absent until Christianity spread in Rome. Even Christians mean adherent of Christ(Messiah)( act of pouring aromatic oil over a person’s head or entire body) which is Greek word. And at that periods Rome paganism culture/religion was operative. In western Christianity through impact of Rome culture the trinity was imposed. But in east Christianity(original religion of Jesus) divinity of Jesus was not considered(Arius). What happened to Arius?

The first Bibles were written after Saint Paul. Saint Paul was not apostle of Jesus because he had not seen Jesus as alive. And Paul was very hard and cruel to follower of Jesus. Even in Paul’s writting there is no Trinity but such statements like “Son of God”. And such terms did not mean the literal meaning but metaphorical.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Matthew 5)

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matthew 5)

Here Children of God is figurative so Son of God(Father) is metaphorical too. But in Rome culture it got literal.

Otherwise Bible teach us “Tawhid” which mean there is only one/unique God and Jesus as a prophet:

10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee. (Matthew 21)

35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots. Matthew 27

Jesus alway said “I will ask from Father” and Father is super than me(everything). There are many verse in Bible and you can look at them by yourself.

And also Trinity is impossible if we consider eternal attributes of God!

 

[MartinJordan]

The trinity is absent until Christianity spread in Rome. Even Christians mean adherent of Christ(Messiah)( act of pouring aromatic oil over a person’s head or entire body) which is Greek word. And at that periods Rome paganism culture/religion was operative. In western Christianity through impact of Rome culture the trinity was imposed. But in east Christianity(original religion of Jesus) divinity of Jesus was not considered(Arius). What happened to Arius?

The first Bibles were written after Saint Paul. Saint Paul was not apostle of Jesus because he had not seen Jesus as alive. And Paul was very hard and cruel to follower of Jesus. Even in Paul’s writting there is no Trinity but such statements like “Son of God”. And such terms did not mean the literal meaning but metaphorical.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Matthew 5)

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matthew 5)

Here Children of God is figurative so Son of God(Father) is metaphorical too. But in Rome culture it got literal.

Otherwise Bible teach us “Tawhid” which mean there is only one/unique God and Jesus as a prophet:

10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee. (Matthew 21)

35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots. Matthew 27

Jesus alway said “I will ask from Father” and Father is super than me(everything). There are many verse in Bible and you can look at them by yourself.

And also Trinity is impossible if we consider eternal attributes of God!

I need Islamic source from it’s Tradition preferably from your prophet, with reference and citations that Christian theology took ideas like that you have mentioned above. Please for the Love of God provide that.

MJ

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Triad or Trinity is the same thing Ignatian. Didn’t the word “Trinity” come from the Latin trinitas (which means triad) and *trinus *(which means threefold)??

You are claiming exclusivity to a word and its definition which was always meaning “threefold” or “triad” anyway.

If the word Trinity or Triad were used interchangeably in Latin, then it can be said that it is Christianity that has changed the definition from what was given to Hinduism and later in Zoroastrianism…

Nope, the Baha’i Faith acknowledges the essential oneness of the 3 components/Persons of the Trinity. The light is symbolic of the essence which emanates from the Father, is reflected in the Son and is essential to the Holy Spirit.

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In the English language and in a theological sense yes, I am claiming an exclusivity on part of Christians to use the word Trinity. I don’t think it helps to casually and with rash abandon redefine words which carry meaning which is well established. Go into a church and say you believe in the trinity, what will people think? Go to an atheist and say you believe in the trinity, what will they think? Go to a Muslim and say they are wrong for denying the trinity, what will they say? They will all have in mind the Christian concept, upon which centuries of theology has built.

I don’t expect you to stop insisting you believe in the trinity, rather at least say you believe in a trinity, one utterly different from that which christians believe. But if you admit that, why continue to call it such? Shogi effendi was asked to explain the trinity, he should have explained the Christian concept and how it was wrong and then went on to establish his theological statement concerning the relationship between the Father and the Son and the Spirit.

No matter how hard you protest, I won’t believe you when you say you believe in the trinity. Because you don’t. It’s something I’ve noticed among bahais, how loose with words and definitions. You want to say both things, you want to use specific definitions of words in certain ways that you can say to the Muslim “Yes I deny the trinity” (not mentioning it is the Christian trinity) and then say to the Christian “Yes I affirm the trinity” (Not mentioning that it is a totally different doctrine).

Now if you are saying you as a bahai admit the oneness, that oneness being Homousious, of the same substance, that is the Father and Son and Spirit are of the same substance, then I suppose we don’t really disagree on the matter. But I suppose you will say, no not that oneness, maybe a Mormon view of the oneness of Purpose.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I fail to see how a deficient understanding of the Koran and personal references to me add to and support any view on a trinity. There is no need to discuss this anymore, you have made your view known, you know there are other views.

God bless all and Regards Tony

The quran affirms that Jesus is God incarnate and deserves our worship. That he died on the cross for the sins of man and rose from the dead the third day?

I agree there is nothing more to discuss, you have admitted you do not accept the Love of God.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

But the Christian Trinity denies that God would manifest again after Christianity. That is limiting the love of God in my humble opinion. How could God talk to mankind through a Human Temple through the numerous Prophets of the Old Testament and then suddenly after Jesus there is no more human Manifestation of His Word??
That is limiting dear Martin

Jesus will return, to judge the world, divide the sheep and the goats and rule over it forever, to inaugarate the resurrection from the dead and grant life eternal to those who put their trust in him.

The lack of a Prophet does not limit the love of God, especially when we have something greater than a Prophet, the very body and blood of Jesus Christ to partake in. A new revelation cannot compare to that and indeed, all supposed subsequent “prophets” still haven’t compared to that.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The trinity is absent until Christianity spread in Rome. Even Christians mean adherent of Christ(Messiah)( act of pouring aromatic oil over a person’s head or entire body) which is Greek word. And at that periods Rome paganism culture/religion was operative. In western Christianity through impact of Rome culture the trinity was imposed. But in east Christianity(original religion of Jesus) divinity of Jesus was not considered(Arius). What happened to Arius?

The first Bibles were written after Saint Paul. Saint Paul was not apostle of Jesus because he had not seen Jesus as alive. And Paul was very hard and cruel to follower of Jesus. Even in Paul’s writting there is no Trinity but such statements like “Son of God”. And such terms did not mean the literal meaning but metaphorical.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Matthew 5)

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matthew 5)

Here Children of God is figurative so Son of God(Father) is metaphorical too. But in Rome culture it got literal.

Otherwise Bible teach us “Tawhid” which mean there is only one/unique God and Jesus as a prophet:

10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee. (Matthew 21)

35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots. Matthew 27

Jesus alway said “I will ask from Father” and Father is super than me(everything). There are many verse in Bible and you can look at them by yourself.

And also Trinity is impossible if we consider eternal attributes of God!

How are you to argue that the trinity was a result of pagan influence and not a result of genuine reflection on Christian scripture? Paganism was widely rejected in the church, to the point where many of the fathers advocated not even going to theatres in order to avoid pagan displays.

When we see how the early church interacted with the scripture to arrive at the trinity in the way it did, we can see that greek philosophy had a hand in it, but without the scripture that greek Philosophy would have only remained an incomplete one. The church saw in Jesus God revealed to us, the holy spirit revealed to us.

If you’re interested in the development of Christian trinitarian thought in the early church to the council of Nicaea I would recommend Fr John behr’s “The Nicene Faith” and “The way to Nicaea.”

 

[TonyBS]

The quran affirms that Jesus is God incarnate and deserves our worship. That he died on the cross for the sins of man and rose from the dead the third day?

I agree there is nothing more to discuss, you have admitted you do not accept the Love of God.

God Bless you and I will pray for your Judgement

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

God Bless you and I will pray for your Judgement

Regards Tony

Pray that you might be able to demonstrate my errant interpretation of the Quran.

 

[Vico]

Thank you for this summary Vico

May I ask you what was the purpose of Moses?

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The same purpose as all mankind: to serve God and to rule over all creatures, and be happy with God in heaven. For his vocation, is was to chosen to break the Hebrews from Egyptian slavery and transit them to the “land of milk and honey”, (later called Palestine).

 

[Servant19]

The same purpose as all mankind: to serve God and to rule over all creatures, and be happy with God in heaven. For his vocation, is was to chosen to break the Hebrews from Egyptian slavery and transit them to the “land of milk and honey”, (later called Palestine).

Thankyou. Now, try to think like a Jew, and tell me what was the purpose of His religion?

To a Jew, what is the purpose of being Jewish?

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[Vico]

Thankyou. Now, try to think like a Jew, and tell me what was the purpose of His religion?

To a Jew, what is the purpose of being Jewish?

.

Gen 2:15 The Lord God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.

Gen 35:11 Then God said to him: I am God Almighty; be fruitful and multiply. A nation, indeed an assembly of nations, will stem from you, and kings will issue from your loins.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 The last word, when all is heard: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this concerns all humankind; 14 because God will bring to judgment every work, with all its hidden qualities, whether good or bad.

1 Peter 9 But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may announce the praises” of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

 

[Servant19]

In the English language and in a theological sense yes, I am claiming an exclusivity on part of Christians to use the word Trinity. I don’t think it helps to casually and with rash abandon redefine words which carry meaning which is well established. Go into a church and say you believe in the trinity, what will people think? Go to an atheist and say you believe in the trinity, what will they think? Go to a Muslim and say they are wrong for denying the trinity, what will they say? They will all have in mind the Christian concept, upon which centuries of theology has built.

I don’t expect you to stop insisting you believe in the trinity, rather at least say you believe in a trinity, one utterly different from that which christians believe. But if you admit that, why continue to call it such? Shogi effendi was asked to explain the trinity, he should have explained the Christian concept and how it was wrong and then went on to establish his theological statement concerning the relationship between the Father and the Son and the Spirit.

No matter how hard you protest, I won’t believe you when you say you believe in the trinity. Because you don’t. It’s something I’ve noticed among bahais, how loose with words and definitions. You want to say both things, you want to use specific definitions of words in certain ways that you can say to the Muslim “Yes I deny the trinity” (not mentioning it is the Christian trinity) and then say to the Christian “Yes I affirm the trinity” (Not mentioning that it is a totally different doctrine).

Now if you are saying you as a bahai admit the oneness, that oneness being Homousious, of the same substance, that is the Father and Son and Spirit are of the same substance, then I suppose we don’t really disagree on the matter. But I suppose you will say, no not that oneness, maybe a Mormon view of the oneness of Purpose.

Well indeed one could say that 2000 years ago a Christian went into a Zoroastrian place of worship and said that they believe in a triad. What do you think the Zoroastrians would think? Or if it was an Indian speaking Christian, they very well may have gone into a Hindu Temple and said that they believe in a trimurti (triad). How would the Hindus have reacted?

You are playing with language Ignatian. What is now a Trinity was redefined from the triad.
You can elaborate all you like and refine the definitions but the origins are still pre-existing Christianity.

If you take an apple then peel it, add some orange peel over the top, you can’t start calling it an orange now. The foundation is apple. Yes, the apple has been modified, elaborated upon and adorned with embellishments, but we cannot forget the original apple.

Christianity can claim exclusivity to this “orange” but it’s still an apple.
Christianity can claim exclusivity to God, but its still the same God of the Muslim religion.

Embellishments and newly discovered attributes to a concept does not mean that we now have a whole new concept. We are simply elaborating on it more, exploring it deeper and unearthing new Truths.

.