Understanding the Trinity

[Starwarsfan2]

The first and main source of Islam is Qur’an. The second source is Hadiths and Sunnah of Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad did not tell anything about Trinity but God Himself did in Qur’an.

Why should we recognise Qur’an? Because there is no any obvious verse about Trinity in Bible. And Bible is not directly words of God but translation by translation. (Ofcourse original Bible is word of God but there is no original text). And if we recognise Qur’an as literal words of God. Then we have to look at Qur’an:

171-O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (An-Nisa 4)

There is a little something known as the preservation of the scriptures ( God preserves His Word ) and it has been shown that the various textual variants do not disagree on essential doctrine i.e. That means the bible we have today is accurate THE word do God .

And the Trinity is mentioned multiple times in scripture.

 

[TonyBS]

The quran affirms that Jesus is God incarnate and deserves our worship. That he died on the cross for the sins of man and rose from the dead the third day?

I agree there is nothing more to discuss, you have admitted you do not accept the Love of God.

Dear Ignatian - You have been Using the Trinity Doctrine as it is currently considered, as the path to the Highest and most Pure Love man can have and that only a Christian can appreciate this level of Love.

Let’s examine then this view on the Highest Most Pure Love.

Firstly In Christianity it has been mentioned the belief in the Trinity is the highest form of Love. The Trinity Explains the Three Aspects of God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus the Christ. So one would conclude with what has been mentioned above, that with full acceptance of and humble understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity, Ones Love is Unlimited.

**On the other Hand, Let’s examine this then as per the writings of Baha’u’llah, these writings have given the Baha’is a different “Frame of Reference” of looking at and understanding of the Trinity.

We see in Christianity – God the Holy Spirit and Jesus the Christ. We commit to and offer our Soul to be given the bounty for Service to Humanity in the Love of God through Jesus the Christ.

We see in Muslim Faith – God the Holy Spirit and Muhammad. We commit to and offer our Soul to be given the bounty for Service to Humanity in the Love of God through Muhammad.

We see in All Major Religions – God the Holy Spirit and Chosen Messenger. We commit to and offer our Soul to be given the bounty for Service to Humanity in the Love of God Through all the Chosen Messengers.

The Writings contained within the Koran and Baha’u’llah volumes of works tell of Many Prophets/Messengers from God Gone Before in the many Dispensations of God and of Many more to Come.

We see in All these Religions – God the Holy Spirit and Chosen Messenger. We commit to and offer our Soul to be given the bounty for Service to Humanity in the Love of God Through all these Chosen Messengers.

With this one will have to consider which of the paths mentioned above is “Unconstrained”, “Unlimited”, and ready for acceptance of One God, One Purpose, all religions and all peoples!**

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

The sun and the rays are two distinct entities. Is Jesus in anyway the sun or is he only the rays of sun? If the latter you do not agree with the Christian position.

Maybe look at it this way = Go back to the Start of the Bible; God the Sun and His Rays exist, His Names Also Exist but. Man and the Time for His Word does not. Then we have creation and God was Pleased. Jesus the Christ came when God so chose to Reveal Himself Unto Man in the way and with the Message He so Chose to give. He was also the First and Will also be the Last, the Beginning and the End.

We get attached to a single Name and a single Form, but the Messenger is the Same God, The Same Holy Spirit and a bearer of all the Names.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

The first and main source of Islam is Qur’an. The second source is Hadiths and Sunnah of Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad did not tell anything about Trinity but God Himself did in Qur’an.

So you don’t have anything from Mohammed about the Trinity nor from any Islamic source. Then I have to assume you don’t want to tell me where you get the other information?

Why should we recognise Qur’an?

That is not the subject of the thread.

Because there is no any obvious verse about Trinity in Bible.

How do you know there isn’t?

And Bible is not directly words of God but translation by translation. (Ofcourse original Bible is word of God but there is no original text).

Then you shouldn’t quote from the Bible at ALL and never trust it whatsoever. You can’t pick and choose any of the “unoriginal” texts. There is no order in that.

And if we recognise Qur’an as literal words of God. Then we have to look at Qur’an:

171-O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (An-Nisa 4)

So Quran doesn’t have Trinity. But there is a “three”. Maybe Christians changed from Father Son Mary to Father Son Holy Spirit? Then more research with specific points from Islamic sources how that happened.

MJ

 

[Vico]

So can this be summarised as “a Jew’s purpose is to keep the commandments of God (which brings them out of the darkness into the light) for the intention of bringing forth a fruitful nation, pleasing to God”?

…and Moses’ mission was to give the necessary Divine Guidance to ensure this nation is formed and established?

Essentially, being a Jew today means I live my life according to the Divine Will outlined by Moses in His Law…

Is that fair?

.

No. The law was known before Moses and the second covenant. The law was known even before the first covenant where Abraham promises to forego all allegiances to his idolatrous community and to have a new life in the “Promised Land”. The law was known from Adam, and it is written in the heart of man and known through the conscience. Jesus Christ states that Moses relaxed the law that was given in the beginning, due to hardness of heart.

To serve God and to rule over all creatures, and be happy with God in heaven, is their purpose. That service is in love of God. The Shem begins:“Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God. The Lord is One.
Blessed be his name, whose glorious kingdom is for ever and ever.
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”

 

[Servant19]

Yes God did die on the cross in his humanity. God took on the fullness of humanity and lived the perfect human life to which none before and none after has been able to do. This does not imply (unless one has not read enough) that divinity itself died on the cross, yet the divine did suffer on the cross for our sakes through his humanity.

So Gods flesh was tortured and crucified. God has flesh? God is finite? God has cells? If God became human in its fullness, all the above are true.

.

 

[Servant19]

Servant, how about some citations, For professionalism sake. And good order sake. Sometimes it reminds me of when people say “The Bible says…” But the book doesn’t talk it needs to be interpreted.

MJ

I only have human interpretations as citations Martin.

The closest citation I can come up with to “God became flesh” is from Timothy 3:16 where it is said that “God manifested in the flesh” which conforms fully with Baha’i teaching but contradicts the teaching that God BECAME flesh.

Once something is “manifested as” it is not the same as “becoming”…

.

 

[Servant19]

To serve God and to rule over all creatures, and be happy with God in heaven, is their purpose. That service is in love of God. The Shem begins:“Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God. The Lord is One.
Blessed be his name, whose glorious kingdom is for ever and ever.
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”

And so Vico, were I a Jew living 500 years before the appearance of Christ, was this purpose you write above not sufficient for God to be pleased with man, were man to work tirelessly night and day to live according to that teaching?

That Moses gave this to the Jews, was this guidance and teaching worthy of a persons attention at the time of hearing it back then?

.

 

[eddie_too]

from the beginning, even as Jesus worked miracles right in front of them, many have refused to accept the teachings of Jesus.

many have tried to trade on the Gospel of Jesus Christ for their own self-aggrandizement.

many, having heard the Gospel, have rejected it and replaced it with their own, solely human (as opposed to divine) interpretations and understandings.

Jesus taught the apostles exactly what human life was about and its ultimate purpose/destination. Jesus is the only One who came down from heaven. all of the rest of us came in to existence at our physical conceptions.

those without faith in Jesus as the Incarnate Word do not understand any of this. when they participate in discussions, their lack of understanding becomes obvious.

most of those who try to place their own interpretations on Jesus while rejecting the actual teachings of Jesus also reject Jesus’ method for ensuring that the ignorant and vainglorious who would try to trade on His glory for their own benefits. that method is of course the magisterium Jesus created for the purpose of keeping the teachers of His Gospel faithful to it (the Gospel).

Jesus chose the Twelve to be the first magisterium of His Church. anyone who is trying to change what Jesus taught the Twelve is offending God.

we can only be confident in the teaching of the successors to the apostles, no other human beings have been given the gift of apostleship.

we are totally right to reject the understandings, visions, interpretations and practices of all who teach differently from the Lord’s magisterium.

we are not obligated to engage in discussion those mired in error. should they reject their errors, we are obligated to instruct them in the truth.

we can easily recognize those mired in error by observing their rejections of the successors to the apostles.

for those who ask, yes, God did suffer and die on the cross. God did shed His blood. that is the great mystery of the Incarnation.

st. paul the apostle, at least I think it was him, made it clear when he wrote, God humbled Himself to become man. it is a stumbling block for many, the Incarnation. those who reject the Incarnation are dependent upon the teachings of finite men for whatever benefits they imagine they receive. we who accept the Incarnate Word are blessed with graces that cannot be provided by other men who are solely human and are not divine in any real sense of the word.

God became man. without that faith, it is impossible to understand, at least intellectually, any of the divine/heavenly mysteries Jesus revealed.

If Jesus is not fully human and fully divine, then we are still in our sins because we finite creatures have no means at our disposal to make amends for our offenses against Infinite Being.

we who are sinners are not entitled to God’s mercy. we receive it completely freely through the Incarnate Word.

 

[clem456]

Apologies if this is already talked about.

While God is not completely knowable in his essence, he reveals himself so that we might know him. Yes, it does make sense. Think about it.

Because God is Trinity, and he reveals himself to us, all created things reveal the Trinity. All of creation “bears the stamp of”, for lack of better words, the Trinity. The sacrament of marriage is a prime example. Marriage is a sign of, the mystery of God’s unitive and creative love. “Mysterion” became “sacramentum”.
So while we cannot fully explain what Trinity is, all of nature reveals it, so that we can know God with intimacy, if not full “head knowledge”.

234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the “hierarchy of the truths of faith”.56 The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men “and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin”

Christianity is unique among religions in that we know one God who pours himself out in a community of fruitful love.

 

[Vico]

And so Vico, were I a Jew living 500 years before the appearance of Christ, was this purpose you write above not sufficient for God to be pleased with man, were man to work tirelessly night and day to live according to that teaching?

That Moses gave this to the Jews, was this guidance and teaching worthy of a persons attention at the time of hearing it back then?

.

In fact, or in thinking at the time? The Mystery of salvation was not revealed clearly then.

All just souls before the death of Christ would await his decent to the underworld whence they would proceed immediately to heaven or purgatory.

 

[Servant19]

In fact, or in thinking at the time? The Mystery of salvation was not revealed clearly then.

All just souls before the death of Christ would await his decent to the underworld whence they would proceed immediately to heaven or purgatory.

Yes the mystery of salvation was not revealed at that time, but for what reason did God speak through all the Old Testament prophets?

Why would God bother speaking?

.

 

[Servant19]

Christianity is unique among religions in that we know one God who pours himself out in a community of fruitful love.

God bless you Clem.

Christianity is not unique in this way at all. I know many religious communities who experience this pouring out of love

.

 

[Vico]

Yes the mystery of salvation was not revealed at that time, but for what reason did God speak through all the Old Testament prophets?

Why would God bother speaking?

.

Catholic Encyclopedia states that:

(1) General Idea — The Hebrew Prophet was not merely, as the word commonly implies, a man enlightened by God to foretell events; he was the interpreter and supernaturally enlightened herald sent by Yahweh to communicate His will and designs to Israel. His mission consisted in preaching as well as in foretelling. He had to maintain and develop the knowledge of the Old Law among the Chosen People, lead them back when they strayed, and gradually prepare the way for the new kingdom of God, which the messias was to establish on earth. Prophecy, in general, signifies the supernatural message of the Prophet, and more especially, from custom, the predictive element of the prophetic message.

Calès, J.M. (1911). Prophecy, Prophet, and Prophetess. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/12477a.htm

 

[Servant19]

Catholic Encyclopedia states that:

(1) General Idea — The Hebrew Prophet was not merely, as the word commonly implies, a man enlightened by God to foretell events; he was the interpreter and supernaturally enlightened herald sent by Yahweh to communicate His will and designs to Israel. His mission consisted in preaching as well as in foretelling. He had to maintain and develop the knowledge of the Old Law among the Chosen People, lead them back when they strayed, and gradually prepare the way for the new kingdom of God, which the messias was to establish on earth. Prophecy, in general, signifies the supernatural message of the Prophet, and more especially, from custom, the predictive element of the prophetic message.

Calès, J.M. (1911). Prophecy, Prophet, and Prophetess. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
newadvent.org/cathen/12477a.htm

Thank you Vico

So upon reflection on current conditions in the world and Israel, do you feel it has strayed from Gods Will?

.

 

[Vico]

Thank you Vico

So upon reflection on current conditions in the world and Israel, do you feel it has strayed from Gods Will?

.

I don’t think of Israel in particular apart from the rest of the world.

All men sin, so have not done the will of God, but many have repented, so they have done God’s will. ‘Just as God’s will is creation and is called “the world,” so his intention is the salvation of men, and it is called “the Church.”’ – Clement of Alex., Pæd. 1,6,27G 8,281.

 

[Servant19]

I don’t think of Israel in particular apart from the rest of the world.

All men sin, so have not done the will of God, but many have repented, so they have done God’s will. ‘Just as God’s will is creation and is called “the world,” so his intention is the salvation of men, and it is called “the Church.”’ – Clement of Alex., Pæd. 1,6,27G 8,281.

Historically, has God ever persisted with for over 2000 years of worsening grave sinning without sending a prophet?

.

 

[Servant19]

from the beginning, even as Jesus worked miracles right in front of them, many have refused to accept the teachings of Jesus.

many have tried to trade on the Gospel of Jesus Christ for their own self-aggrandizement.

many, having heard the Gospel, have rejected it and replaced it with their own, solely human (as opposed to divine) interpretations and understandings.

Jesus taught the apostles exactly what human life was about and its ultimate purpose/destination. Jesus is the only One who came down from heaven. all of the rest of us came in to existence at our physical conceptions.

those without faith in Jesus as the Incarnate Word do not understand any of this. when they participate in discussions, their lack of understanding becomes obvious.

most of those who try to place their own interpretations on Jesus while rejecting the actual teachings of Jesus also reject Jesus’ method for ensuring that the ignorant and vainglorious who would try to trade on His glory for their own benefits. that method is of course the magisterium Jesus created for the purpose of keeping the teachers of His Gospel faithful to it (the Gospel).

Jesus chose the Twelve to be the first magisterium of His Church. anyone who is trying to change what Jesus taught the Twelve is offending God.

we can only be confident in the teaching of the successors to the apostles, no other human beings have been given the gift of apostleship.

we are totally right to reject the understandings, visions, interpretations and practices of all who teach differently from the Lord’s magisterium.

we are not obligated to engage in discussion those mired in error. should they reject their errors, we are obligated to instruct them in the truth.

we can easily recognize those mired in error by observing their rejections of the successors to the apostles.

for those who ask, yes, God did suffer and die on the cross. God did shed His blood. that is the great mystery of the Incarnation.

st. paul the apostle, at least I think it was him, made it clear when he wrote, God humbled Himself to become man. it is a stumbling block for many, the Incarnation. those who reject the Incarnation are dependent upon the teachings of finite men for whatever benefits they imagine they receive. we who accept the Incarnate Word are blessed with graces that cannot be provided by other men who are solely human and are not divine in any real sense of the word.

God became man. without that faith, it is impossible to understand, at least intellectually, any of the divine/heavenly mysteries Jesus revealed.

If Jesus is not fully human and fully divine, then we are still in our sins because we finite creatures have no means at our disposal to make amends for our offenses against Infinite Being.

we who are sinners are not entitled to God’s mercy. we receive it completely freely through the Incarnate Word.

Thanks eddie,

I think our understanding and egos are quite balanced in our observations and explorations of the mysteries found in Christianity.

Philipians 2:8
I think that’s the reference from St.Paul that you recall:

“And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!”

Please note the words “being found in APPEARANCE as a man”. An appearance has a specific meaning which you assuredly have the courage to understand for yourself

God bless you

.

 

[hasantas]

There is a little something known as the preservation of the scriptures ( God preserves His Word ) and it has been shown that the various textual variants do not disagree on essential doctrine i.e. That means the bible we have today is accurate THE word do God .

And the Trinity is mentioned multiple times in scripture.

Preservation is for Qur’an because Qur’an is last revelation. And God preserved Torah and Bible and other scriptures through Qur’an.

Could you point that verses which explain Trinity directly? There are many verses which clearly declare that God is one in Bible, Torah and Qur’an!

 

[hasantas]

=MartinJordan;13500411]So you don’t have anything from Mohammed about the Trinity nor from any Islamic source. Then I have to assume you don’t want to tell me where you get the other information?

Isn’t Qur’an from Muhammad? Most of Christians do not accept and like Muhammad. So perhaps God did not wish Muhammad to say something about that issue. Once Sahabas spoke loudly near Muhammad and He was disturbed but He did not declare that but God did. Muhammad was a human and had very grace and mercy. Ofcourse God is most merciful, graceful, omnipower and God do not shy away and avoid to say the fact.

That issue had happened before Islam and Islamic scholars researched issue in light of Qur’an from Christian and history sources.

How do you know there isn’t?

If you know then demonstrate.

Then you shouldn’t quote from the Bible at ALL and never trust it whatsoever. You can’t pick and choose any of the “unoriginal” texts. There is no order in that.

My faith rquire to believe in Bible. Every Muslim believe and trust that Bible is from God. But we have not original text. The text in hand is by translation. For instance there are millions translation of Qur’an but non of them is matching to original. In translation the meaning is restricted or sometimes maybe incomplete. But translation could hold 70 or 90 percentage.

So Quran doesn’t have Trinity. But there is a “three”. Maybe Christians changed from Father Son Mary to Father Son Holy Spirit? Then more research with specific points from Islamic sources how that happened.

Again, Islamic source is Qur’an. Otherwise nobody has a right to say something about Christianity from outside of it. Christianity is a religion from God and only God can judge Christians. That is not Muslims’s right. And Muslims do that by permission of Qur’an. Again we as human are not able to judge religion of God.