Understanding the Trinity

[clem456]

Where does the Bible explicitly describe the Holy Trinity?

Depends what qualifies as “explicit”.
For starters

“God is love”

1 John 4

What is love? A good definition is “to will the good of another”. Love cannot be self absorbed, by nature.
God is eternal. How can God be eternally loving if he is exists “before” any other created thing exists to be loved. Yet God is love always and everywhere.
If God is love, always, a relationship exists between persons “before” there were created persons.

 

[tomarin]

Depends what qualifies as “explicit”.
For starters

1 John 4

What is love? A good definition is “to will the good of another”. Love cannot be self absorbed, by nature.
God is eternal. How can God be eternally loving if he is exists “before” any other created thing exists to be loved. Yet God is love always and everywhere.
If God is love, always, a relationship exists between persons “before” there were created persons.

I thought the Trinity was one of those things whose absence of explication in the Bible we Catholic apologists point to as evidence of why the teaching authority of the Church is so essential. Hence Peter Plato’s statement that it is clearly in the Bible struck me as overplaying his hand a bit.

 

[Vico]

]

Angel Gabriel sometimes came to Muhammad in form of a human. Angels are creatures made by God so they have a body of which substance is not kind of matter we can percept. But it can be realised if substance transform. Many moraly high people could see angels. Angels are not eternal so we can recognise them to incarnate. But God is absolutely eternal with all substance and attributes. If we recognise God to be incarnated that mean we set God in time and matter. God is never in time and matter but He create time and matter. If you put God in time and matter but that helps materialism which suppose matter to be eternal.

If God is three persons then there are three gods.

Three persons cannot reconcile in everything. Three principals cannot run a school in order. Not three but even two presidents cannot lead state in order.

So three eternal substance cannot be reconciled through love. Is eternal substance(God) only love? Is it not justice? Is it not omnipotent? etc. I mean we cannot recognise God only through love. God is above everything. So which god is most powerful? Father or Son or Holy Spirit?

There are much but …

It is obviously explained in Torah, Bible and Qur’an that God is unique and one! But some people through strained intpretation say that God is three! Which is superior Church or Bible?

Trinity was not recognised by earlier believers who believe in Jesus. Later by impose of Rome which was Pagans generally that Trinity doctrine was established.

And do not forget that Trinity is problematic since it had been made!

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are never apart, never have separate being, so they are not like creatures. There is only one divine will.

There are not three gods in the Trinity because the persons are based on relations of opposition which does not import composition. (See Aristotle Metaphysics - categories.)

See post #100 in this tread for St. Thomas Aquinas on this topic forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13483469&postcount=100

 

[Servant19]

no one who rejects Jesus as the Only Son of God is leading any one to a unity of man.

There are 30,000 groups of such people who have at various times and even currently, killed each other.

Christianity is not equipped to unify mankind, only Jesus, who has returned is equipped for such things.

.

 

[Wannano]

There are 30,000 groups of such people who have at various times and even currently, killed each other.

Christianity is not equipped to unify mankind, only Jesus, who has returned is equipped for such things.

.

I am having trouble understanding what you are saying. Could you explain especially the “Jesus who has returned” part?

 

[MartinJordan]

There are 30,000 groups of such people who have at various times and even currently, killed each other.

Christianity is not equipped to unify mankind, only Jesus, who has returned is equipped for such things.

.

Yes, this is always how it this discussion goes. Especially for those happy whether Jesus is God or not.

MJ

 

[Peter_Plato]

I would suggest Logic is thrown out the door when One God is made exclusive, no matter what Religion we have come to Love.

You can “suggest” all you want, but you haven’t shown that your understanding of God or logic requires that what has been revealed in the Old and New Testaments, found consistently in the writings of the Church Fathers and taught continually by the Tradition and Magisterium of the Church since its mission from Jesus, should all be dismissed in deference to your opinion.

 

[Servant19]

I am having trouble understanding what you are saying. Could you explain especially the “Jesus who has returned” part?

The Baha’i religion is based on the Person of Baha’u’llah who Baha’is firmly believe is the return of Jesus Christ in the glory of the Father.

.

 

[Servant19]

Well, no it wasn’t at the “moment” that Christ said “I am” that all life WENT through him. Christ is the eternal WORD through whom all things were made. All things, including all life is, eternally speaking, through him.

But Peter it was you that quoted John

“I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.” (John 10:11)

This clearly means that before Jesus came, life was in reality existing, but through Moses. (ultimately by the Father)
When Jesus came, it was in His name that all spiritual life went through.

That does not mean the resurrection of the dead applied to humankind before Christ’s sacrifice. He said, “I am the Resurrection and the Life” and “No one comes to the Father but through me.”

Is resurrection of the dead the ONLY form of living?
Is my grandmother and your ancestors not living souls?
Did Jesus release those righteous souls from Abraham’s bosom to death?
They are all alive Peter.
God is Spirit, the souls share in that life.

And, no it is not a “true realization” to say that “eternal life existed long before Jesus came.” Eternal life is “eternal.” Eternal things do not have a past and eternal life has no past, either, in the sense that you suppose it “existed long before Jesus.” This does not mean, however, that human beings were resurrected into eternal life “long before Jesus.” Otherwise the Resurrection of Jesus would to be superfluous.

Peter, you seem to be confused.
When a Jew was born in the year 300BC, and died a righteous man, a saint, what happens to his soul when he physically died? Did the soul die too? Is that persons soul dead at this moment? Will that soul ever die?

.

 

[Servant19]

You can “suggest” all you want, but you haven’t shown that your understanding of God or logic requires that what has been revealed in the Old and New Testaments, found consistently in the writings of the Church Fathers and taught continually by the Tradition and Magisterium of the Church since its mission from Jesus, should all be dismissed in deference to your opinion.

Except that what has been written by all these Sources you quote is not dismissed at all in the Baha’i religion.

It is FURTHER CLARIFIED.

Islamic understanding of the Trinity is also in need of further clarification.

It is only through the Baha’i Revelation that both perspectives are fully unified. This is the Fountainhead of religious unity in the world.

(and before you say that I am talking rubbish, I would humbly ask you to reflect on the parallelism between what Christianity has done to the Jewish teachings, passed down with unfailing accuracy over centuries, and what the Baha’i religion has done to Christian teachings)

.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Peter, you seem to be confused.
When a Jew was born in the year 300BC, and died a righteous man, a saint, what happens to his soul when he physically died? Did the soul die too? Is that persons soul dead at this moment? Will that soul ever die?

What does it mean for a soul to be dead?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Except that what has been written by all these Sources you quote is not dismissed at all in the Baha’i religion.

It is FURTHER CLARIFIED.

Islamic understanding of the Trinity is also in need of further clarification.

It is only through the Baha’i Revelation that both perspectives are fully unified. This is the Fountainhead of religious unity in the world.

.

No, unfortunately, that is not the case.

 

[TonyBS]

What does it mean for a soul to be dead?

This is a good question, My take on this would be that if a Soul comes to know the Glory and Beauty of Christ and then because of want or greed, rebels against that Glory and Beauty to take power for themselves, they would be the dead that would bury the dead. Thus If they continue with this until the First death, then they would also subject to the 2nd death.

If they see the error in their ways and again submit fully to Christ then the 2nd birth is also again possible.

Of course all subject to Gods Mercy, Grace and Forgiveness.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

No, unfortunately, that is not the case.

Not the case because you do not think so, or not the case that the Baha’is do actively engage in this unity

The Trinity is the key here.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Vico]

Where does the Bible explicitly describe the Holy Trinity?

See post #266 in this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13509298&postcount=266

Mt 11:27.
Jn 1:1; Col 1:15; Heb 1:3.
Jn 14:17, 26; 16:13

Matthew 3:16-1716 And when Jesus had been baptized, just as He came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on Him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is My Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased.”

 

[Servant19]

No, unfortunately, that is not the case.

On what basis please Peter?

.

 

[Servant19]

What does it mean for a soul to be dead?

Psalm 23:3

***“He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.” ***

When the Manifestation of God says “I am”, all are sinners, immediately.
All that recognize the Manifestation of God have their souls restored, all that do not, remain in sin and are spiritually dead.

So when the Jewish saints died, their souls were not dead, they lived, because, through Moses, they received grace from the Father. When Jesus came, all grace went through Him.

Eternal life is for all, before Jesus came to earth, and after Jesus came to earth.

.

 

[Servant19]

See post #266 in this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13509298&postcount=266

Mt 11:27.
Jn 1:1; Col 1:15; Heb 1:3.
Jn 14:17, 26; 16:13

Matthew 3:16-1716 And when Jesus had been baptized, just as He came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on Him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is My Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased.”

Hi Vico, who is this voice speaking from heaven?

.

 

[Vico]

Hi Vico, who is this voice speaking from heaven?

.

God the Father. The footnote from the NABRE Bible has

Matthew

1. 
   *]3:17 This is my beloved Son: the Marcan address to Jesus (Mk 1:11) is changed into a proclamation. The Father’s voice speaks in terms that reflect Is 42:1; Ps 2:7; Gn 22:2.

 

[Servant19]

God the Father. The footnote from the NABRE Bible has

Matthew

1. 
   *]3:17 This is my beloved Son: the Marcan address to Jesus (Mk 1:11) is changed into a proclamation. The Father’s voice speaks in terms that reflect Is 42:1; Ps 2:7; Gn 22:2.

1. 
   So is Jesus the Son of the Father?
   
   .