Understanding The Trinity?

[OddBird]

…Jesus would have never gone on and on with One - were that to be non-understandable…

It is not that it isn’t understandable. It is that there are several ways to interpret that “we are One”.

JESUS? Often speaks of His Father in a manner reflecting their Sameness (Oneness)

Sameness and oneness are not the same thing, and it is precisely part of the problem.

Arianism took the “we are one” to mean that the Son was like the Father (of a similar essence – sameness) but not consubstantial with the Father (of the same essence – oneness). This position is not Trinitarian.

Adoptionism believed that the Son was a human being made one with the Father through the descent of the Holy Spirit – this position is not Trinitarian.

Modalism understood that oneness to mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not really persons, but just different modes of being of the same deity – that is, that the persons do not really exist in themselves, they are just different ways God reveals himself.

The list could go on, but none of these positions, while they all try to explain what it means when Jesus says that He is one with the Father, are the orthodox understanding of the Trinity. None of them accurately describes the way Father, Son and Holy Spirit really are One. Trinitarian theology is a minefield where it is extremely easy to stray away from the orthodox comprehension, that is from the most faithful description of God’s being our limited understanding is able to produce.

That orthodox belief in the Trinity developed over the first centuries of Christianity and was finally formalized at the first council of Constantinople in 381.

When one has said that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, one hasn’t really said anything yet. One has just begged a huge question, and the answer to that question does not lie in the Bible, although this is where its roots are.

 

[GiftofMercy]

The catechsim states three persons in One God. Apart from that What is the disagreement

 

[po18guy]

There is but a single human nature who completely understands the trinity. He is seated at God’s right hand.

All others are poseurs.

 

[EndTimes]

Yes, it’s a difficult topic…

 

[EndTimes]

“It is not that it isn’t understandable. It is that there are several ways to interpret that “we are One”.”

So saith you… And According to that, It isn’t understandable IF your posited “several ways” are in contradiction to one another…

I’m never claiming to completely know all about the Trinity… And yes, some things I do!

God wants us to Understand Him – otherwise He wouldn’t have presented in depth both: Himself as Father, His Son and His Spirit - within the Scriptures given to us for our Understanding!

Neither Jesus nor His Apostles and Disciples Understood the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in any non-understandable manner… Explicitly, they clearly reflect a close Familiarity and More with God!

To those with Faith, JESUS’ very Words and those of His Apostles and scribes of and within Scriptures - should not resonate with only, “I do not understand the Trinity for it’s a mystery; period!”

We can see some Understanding OF the Trinity within the beginning of The Creed! … Yes?

It’s not any sort of Full Understanding - and yet … it speaks Volumes …

I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit

There’s so much more to say - for the purpose of filling in an Understandable Picture…

 

[OddBird]

And According to that, It isn’t understandable IF your posited “several ways” are in contradiction to one another…

They are. All of those I described existed (and sometimes still exist) at some point in Church history, and have been clearly condemned as heresies by the Church. They are, at least, in blatant contradiction with the orthodox understanding of Trinity.

God wants us to Understand Him – otherwise He wouldn’t have presented in depth both: Himself as Father, His Son and His Spirit - within the Scriptures given to us for our Understanding!

And the Tradition, which plays a crucial role in filling out the doctrinal blanks of Scripture in a way that is faithful to the teaching of Christ and inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit

You claimed you could provide Scriptural evidence for an understanding of Trinity and its interpersonal relationships. The Apostles’ Creed is not Scripture. It is, already, part of Tradition.

Jesus certainly knew very well in what way He was One with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

To the rest of us, Trinity is a mystery, and one one should approach with fear and trembling, because it is so easy to make heretical pronouncements on Who God is.

Scripture gives us the raw materials, and a tiny glimpse of what the intra-trinitarian life looks like. But these raw materials can be put together in the wrong way. The examples I gave you above show that the statement “Father and Son are one”, or mentions of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are far from self-evident.

If you know a place in the Bible where the orthodox definition of Trinity is clearly outlined – one single ousia (essence), three hypostases whose distinction resides in their relative relationship but who are each totally and fully God – I would be glad to see it.

 

[OddBird]

But to be honest, I am feeling puzzled and I am not sure what you are aiming at.

I thought that you were trying to prove that the doctrine of Trinity was present in Scripture. You said above :

Throughout the New Testament: Jesus, and then His Apostles and those close to them, ALL refer to these Persons: both Individually as well as Including Their Infra-Spiritual Relationships…

I – and others – answered that Scripture does not give the full picture, and that the orthodox understanding of Trinity developed over time and within the framework of Tradition, and you said :

It’s there… Barring comparisons with full intimacy as referred to in Scriptures, that’s Not easily paralleled to our Earthly relationships - again, it is…
e.g. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."

…Jesus would have never gone on and on with One - were that to be non-understandable…

I insisted that it is not that simple as that, and that interpreting Scripture statements can be a tricky business, and now you say :

We can see some Understanding OF the Trinity within the beginning of The Creed! … Yes?

It’s not any sort of Full Understanding - and yet … it speaks Volumes …

So, which one is it ? Do you think we can have a full orthodox understanding of Trinity based on the Scriptural witness, or do you think (as I do) that we have gradually come to a faithful understanding of Trinity through Tradition and the gradual development of what was not fully explicit in Scripture ? I need to know where you stand if we are to have a fruitful discussion

 

[EndTimes]

“It is not that it isn’t understandable. It is that there are several ways to interpret that “we are One”.

And According to that, It isn’t understandable IF your posited “several ways” are in contradiction to one another…

"They are. All of those I described existed (and sometimes still exist) at some point in Church history, and have been clearly condemned as heresies by the Church."

In my opinion, We could be speaking past one another…

That said, it is my intention to attempt to unravel at least my own potential cobwebs…

It is an of course that any known heresy…including any heresy which could be generated via one’s imagination - are certainly never any sort of viable Understanding of the Trinity…

For the sake of me better understanding your Word:

You in effect said: “It (meaning The Trinity) is not that it is not Understandable.”

Which said to me that you aver that the Trinity is at least to some degree, Understandable…

Of which, yes, speaking for me, I believe that the Trinity is at least to some degree, Understandable

From that, you then went on and introduced into the discussion the domain of some known heresies – as your immediate response to my attempted simple focus to remain upon for at least a short time - the Oneness between via The Father and The Son both Sharing God’s Spirit dwelling within Them… of which Jesus speaks at length to us.

You see, OddBird, to me, I did take that response as if were a potentially unnecessary drifting away from my intended attempt to have us remain upon a meditative focus of Their One-Ness for at least a short period of time…

I attempted this for the very sake of IMHO beginning an even better Understanding of God than in my estimation exists … For the ultimate reason of looking closer to the connection between His Oneness and Our Oneness with Him (as per the Gospel) – in the manner in which I presume that He intends us to have; and that is - Understanding Him in a true non-heretical manner so that also we can more fully Understand our Lord’s’ Prayer and Intentions regarding God and us…

That is … The Comm-Union of Saints via God’s Holy Spirit!

I still maintain that as one Understands Each Person of the Trinity better,
then… one Understands the Trinity Itself better…

Perhaps, in your words - I am attempting to address this “mystery”:
and yes, with the Fear of our Lord within.

Am I not I allowed to?

To which I ask you for the sake of understanding you better:

What do you or do you not Understand about the Trinity?

_

 

[OddBird]

In my opinion, We could be speaking past one another…

Yes, I am wondering about that too.

I will be honest, I do not think we can achieve “an even better understanding of God than exists”. I think the best I can do, as far as I’m concerned, is to try to understand a little better what the Church means when She says that God is Trinity.

But ok, let’s talk about God’s Oneness then

 

[FrancisFan43]

I have always liked how these guys explained it:

 

[Wesrock]

Hi, EndTimes. I must admit I am having trouble figuring out exactly what you’re trying to say. Catholics certainly see the persons of the Trinity spoken of in Scripture, and we also see passages from which we can draw out an implicit “Trinitarian” understanding of God with some teasing. However, we don’t see in Scripture an explicit statement that God is one non-composite ‘being’ who is three co-eternal, consubstantial persons. The formal statements on that developed out of tradition with some appeals to scriptural support.

 

[EndTimes]

OK… Agreed… This is not a quick and simple affair. And I’ll get to Their Oneness in a moment…

The Church is said to sit upon 3 pillars - Sacred Scriptures, Sacred Apostolic Tradition and The Magisterium… From the Magisterium the Church Teaches:

CCC – The Magisterium of the Church … 85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God. […] … 86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it.

God’s Oneness… They are ONE in Spirit - God the Father’s Holy Spirit: Father, Son, Holy Spirit
Which yes - can raise the question: What is Spirit?

MeanWhile, They are distinct Persons… as in again roughly - Like Father, Like Son…
The Father sent the Son … and not the other way around…
In Heaven, The Son sits at the Right Hand of The Father - and not the other way around…

IMHO, I view Their Spiritual mind you Relationship as not so much at all as a single 3-Leaf Clover which some surmised… Rather - IMHO, And merely as a sort of proposed imperfect symbol for better understanding - They might be better viewed as Two - United as ONE in Spirit - Via the same Holy Spirit - with an extra focus upon UNITED… as in Two Beings melding together in their Hearts - in spirit.

Extrapolated from that,
The Comm-Union of Saints - United by and to God via His Spirit, might to be realized…

We might even draw a parallel from the Last Supper - when the Bread of Life is Shared by All

Rather than go on, I’ll leave it at that for the moment…

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. - Hebrews

 

[EndTimes]

Yes… Within Scriptures the term Trinity does not exist…

"mystery" in a few various manners is given mention - along with the ‘revelation’ of said "mystery"

Sticking with Scriptures … .Within Scriptures we can come to know and understand Each Individual Person: God the Father, God’s Son, and God’s Holy Spirit… along with their Infra-Relationships…

Do you accept that?

Did Jesus’ Apostles and Disciples reflect being somewhat baffled by any “mystery” concerning God?

They certainly Knew enough to lay down their lives for Jesus… .

**I see a Great Familiarity with God from them during the Post-Pentacostal Times - **
most especially whereby now they have God Himself dwelling within them aka God’s Temple…

And “familiarity” is to me - on the opposite end of call it a pole - with ‘mystery’ on the other end.

Note:

I’m NEVER saying that we Know Everything about God - But for sure, we do know SOME things about Him as is Revealed in Scriptures through Jesus, and in Life, through God’s Holy Spirit dwelling within.

What saith thou to what I’ve said above?

 

[Wesrock]

OK… Agreed… This is not a quick and simple affair. And I’ll get to Their Oneness in a moment…

The Church is said to sit upon 3 pillars - Sacred Scriptures, Sacred Apostolic Tradition and The Magisterium… From the Magisterium the Church Teaches:

CCC – The Magisterium of the Church … 85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God. […] … 86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it.

God’s Oneness… They are ONE in Spirit - God the Father’s Holy Spirit: Father, Son, Holy Spirit
Which yes - can raise the question: What is Spirit?

MeanWhile, They are distinct Persons… as in again roughly - Like Father, Like Son…
The Father sent the Son … and not the other way around…
In Heaven, The Son sits at the Right Hand of The Father - and not the other way around…

IMHO, I view Their Spiritual mind you Relationship as not so much at all as a single 3-Leaf Clover which some surmised… Rather - IMHO, And merely as a sort of proposed imperfect symbol for better understanding - They might be better viewed as Two - United as ONE in Spirit - Via the same Holy Spirit - with an extra focus upon UNITED… as in Two Beings melding together in their Hearts - in spirit.

Extrapolated from that,
The Comm-Union of Saints - United by and to God via His Spirit, might to be realized…

We might even draw a parallel from the Last Supper - when the Bread of Life is Shared by All

Rather than go on, I’ll leave it at that for the moment…

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. - Hebrews

This is not what is meant by Trinitarian. This is more like some type of Arianism or something else. They are not two beings who are one in spirit, God is one transcendant being in whom subsists three con substantial, co-eternal, personal relations, who are all three the same God, perhaps most succinctly expressed in the Athanasian Creed.

Do you have a denomination? I ask because I’m curious whether or not your denomination subscribes to the Nicene Creed or not. What you state is contrary to Nicene Christianity and would be heresy (though I don’t accuse you of intentional disagreement without knowing more about you).

 

[Wesrock]

Part of the Athanasian Creed:

And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

 

[EndTimes]

I stand by Sacred Scriptures -

God the Father and God the Son are ONE, for Jesus Said that they are ONE!

And they are Distinct Persons as Sacred Scriptures Clearly reveal…

There is no dancing around the Apostles Creed
I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
He descended into hell;
on the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from there He will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of Saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

 

[Wesrock]

Everything in this last post is orthodox. It was your previous post suggesting that Father and Son are two beings who are united in spirit which was not Trinitarian.

 

[EndTimes]

Returning to understanding ONE…

Consider: this portion of Jesus’ Prayer of Petition TO His Father…

I am not myself the source of the words I speak to you: it is the Father who dwells in me doing his own work. […] .The glory which thou gavest me I have given to them, that they may be ONE, as we are ONE; I in them and thou in me, may they be perfectly ONE.

ALONG WITH THIS CHURCH TEACHING from the CCC:

"ONE Body"

790 Believers who respond to God’s word and become members of Christ’s Body, become intimately UNITED with Him

791 The body’s UNITY does not do away with the diversity of its members: "In the building up of Christ’s Body there is engaged a diversity of members and functions. There is only ONE SPIRIT who, according to his own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare of the Church."

 

[Wesrock]

It is Catholic dogma that God in his divine nature is one being who is not composed of parts in whom subsists three personal relations. There is one divine intellect and one divine will. While adhereance to Simplicity varies, all Nicene Christianity follows the rest. To propose they are separate being is contrary to the faith professed at Nicea and Constantinople and the symbols developed there, to which Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and mainstream Protestantism believe.

What perspectiveare you coming from? Are you Catholic? Do you have a denomination? Are you non-denominational? What you’re writing sounds kind of like the uninformed “speculative theology” I did in my teens and early twenties prior to me becoming familiar with my faith.

 

[EndTimes]

I stick with Sacred Scriptures and Church Magisterium as per the CCC… .

What of them do you seem to have trouble with?