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vern_humphrey
Guest
There you are correct. If salvation were entirely between God and the invidual, there would be no need for a Church.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
We should certainly not damn people. But neither should we take the positon that salvatioin is between God and the individual. From the Catechism:
Or rather God.
M
Mike_O
Guest
vern humphrey:
I believe he was highlighting the notes about being unfaithful and being a deceiver.
If you are familiar with Hitetlen, you will note that he begins about 6 different threads each day which prominently feature him complaining about one natural disaster or another, complaining about human beings having free will, or demanding disproofs for the existence of Santa Claus, all manifesting his angst towards God, Whose existence he denies with a rather corrosive brand of arrogance.
The “deceiver” description actually fits him quite well; you might note that a number of threads on the boards regard people who have some struggle with an aspect of the faith.
The forum’s intention–at least, I imagine that the Catholic Answers staff would agree–should be in part to provide a forum for fellow Catholics to correct misinterpretations and answer those doubts in a reasonably respectful environment, as well as supporting fellow Catholics in their faith.
Hitetlen is an atheist, a staunch anti-Catholic, and someone who has no interest in promoting any positive or substantive discussion.
He pokes into those threads where someone could well be struggling with some doubt and offers his generally worthless commentary, nearly all of it based in profound ignorance, and therefore would seem to fall outside the scope of people who should even be posting. It is, after all, CATHOLIC Answers. It is not “Atheists-seeking-to-convert-Catholics” Answers, yet this is what he is trying to do. He tries to pass off his “contributions” in some high flown and deceptive matter.
If you have some doubt about this, consider even his posts in this thread, then try some of the others, if you have not splattered your keyboard with projectile vomit by that time.
His immense condescension towards Catholics is revolting. He has termed the Holy Scriptures “mythology” and has launched attack after repulsive attack against the Lord Whom we love and Who is worthy of infinitely more than the petty, malfeasant ramblings of some missing link on a forum.
If you consider someone’s reply “unchristian,” consider how much more unchristian it would be to allow those sorts of attacks to persist on a Catholic forum (or anywhere) without the sharp retort they deserve.
I recommend not wasting your time with people who have no interest in taking you seriously and who believe that your entire life’s meaning is based upon what he considers a “lie.” The “joke,” in this case, which is really a tragedy, is on him.
Vern Humphrey:
I believe he was highlighting the notes about being unfaithful and being a deceiver.
If you are familiar with Hitetlen, you will note that he begins about 6 different threads each day which prominently feature him complaining about one natural disaster or another, complaining about human beings having free will, or demanding disproofs for the existence of Santa Claus, all manifesting his angst towards God, Whose existence he denies with a rather corrosive brand of arrogance.
The “deceiver” description actually fits him quite well; you might note that a number of threads on the boards regard people who have some struggle with an aspect of the faith.
The forum’s intention–at least, I imagine that the Catholic Answers staff would agree–should be in part to provide a forum for fellow Catholics to correct misinterpretations and answer those doubts in a reasonably respectful environment, as well as supporting fellow Catholics in their faith.
Hitetlen is an atheist, a staunch anti-Catholic, and someone who has no interest in promoting any positive or substantive discussion.
He pokes into those threads where someone could well be struggling with some doubt and offers his generally worthless commentary, nearly all of it based in profound ignorance, and therefore would seem to fall outside the scope of people who should even be posting. It is, after all, CATHOLIC Answers. It is not “Atheists-seeking-to-convert-Catholics” Answers, yet this is what he is trying to do. He tries to pass off his “contributions” in some high flown and deceptive matter.
If you have some doubt about this, consider even his posts in this thread, then try some of the others, if you have not splattered your keyboard with projectile vomit by that time.
His immense condescension towards Catholics is revolting. He has termed the Holy Scriptures “mythology” and has launched attack after repulsive attack against the Lord Whom we love and Who is worthy of infinitely more than the petty, malfeasant ramblings of some missing link on a forum.
If you consider someone’s reply “unchristian,” consider how much more unchristian it would be to allow those sorts of attacks to persist on a Catholic forum (or anywhere) without the sharp retort they deserve.
I recommend not wasting your time with people who have no interest in taking you seriously and who believe that your entire life’s meaning is based upon what he considers a “lie.” The “joke,” in this case, which is really a tragedy, is on him.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Mike O:
Now I admit, I can be as unchristian as anyone else – we all get a little hot under the collar now and then. But let’s try to show by our example why Christianity and Catholicism are better than any alternative.
I would rather we not stoop to such tactics. In the case of those who break the rules, let the moderators handle it.
Now I admit, I can be as unchristian as anyone else – we all get a little hot under the collar now and then. But let’s try to show by our example why Christianity and Catholicism are better than any alternative.
J
Joan89
Guest
On the topic of Salvation…
I’ve bee listening to a biblical program by Scott Hahn in which he taught that salvation is much more than forgiveness, salvation is actually “sonship”. Through Christ’s redemption we become sharers in God’s divine communion, his eternal family and, therefore, united with God and our brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, though it is true that salvation is between God and an individual, this is subordinated by the fact that the ultimate reality of salvation is communion. Therefore, to imply that salvation itself is a personal matter is a contradiction of its very nature!!! So, while the idea that ultimate judgment belongs to God is very true, we should keep the glorious realities of our Christian faith in mind while discussing this.
I’ve bee listening to a biblical program by Scott Hahn in which he taught that salvation is much more than forgiveness, salvation is actually “sonship”. Through Christ’s redemption we become sharers in God’s divine communion, his eternal family and, therefore, united with God and our brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, though it is true that salvation is between God and an individual, this is subordinated by the fact that the ultimate reality of salvation is communion. Therefore, to imply that salvation itself is a personal matter is a contradiction of its very nature!!! So, while the idea that ultimate judgment belongs to God is very true, we should keep the glorious realities of our Christian faith in mind while discussing this.
M
Michael_Francis
Guest
vern humphrey:
The Charity level of some individuals posting on Hitetlen’s threads has fallen and a couple of you who seem to have it in for him because you percieve his posts as anti-Catholic or “blasphemeous” are in fact in error. I have monitored his threads all along, and though I do not agree with him in any way, because of my faith, I have not seen anything that qualifies as anti-Catholic.
He is an atheist. He does not believe in God. That is his perogative and any eternal consequences are between him and God. For us to take offense at his comments is not a good mark of Christian charity and compassion. That said, the fact that he questions theist beliefs and the context of events in life and history may be considered somewhat “anti-God”, but I feel sure that the Almighty is capable of dealing with such. Our own responsibiliity is much simpler.
The fact that I placed his account under review at one point is not open to comment or speculation, and others will now find that they share that same experience while we reset our charity levels and I see if I can remove some of the posts that I did not catch in the last day or so.
If one cannot charitably handle the intellectual difficulties of a person who does not believe in God, then one should not interact with such persons, since ultimately you degrade your own life of faith, and may even have to answer before the Lord for possibly scandalously deterring the faith journey of another soul. If this is the case the forum software has an ignore feature that works well and I direct those with this problem to simply place the member in question on their “Ignore List”.
Matthew 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.
I completely agree with Vern on this!
The Charity level of some individuals posting on Hitetlen’s threads has fallen and a couple of you who seem to have it in for him because you percieve his posts as anti-Catholic or “blasphemeous” are in fact in error. I have monitored his threads all along, and though I do not agree with him in any way, because of my faith, I have not seen anything that qualifies as anti-Catholic.
He is an atheist. He does not believe in God. That is his perogative and any eternal consequences are between him and God. For us to take offense at his comments is not a good mark of Christian charity and compassion. That said, the fact that he questions theist beliefs and the context of events in life and history may be considered somewhat “anti-God”, but I feel sure that the Almighty is capable of dealing with such. Our own responsibiliity is much simpler.
The fact that I placed his account under review at one point is not open to comment or speculation, and others will now find that they share that same experience while we reset our charity levels and I see if I can remove some of the posts that I did not catch in the last day or so.
If one cannot charitably handle the intellectual difficulties of a person who does not believe in God, then one should not interact with such persons, since ultimately you degrade your own life of faith, and may even have to answer before the Lord for possibly scandalously deterring the faith journey of another soul. If this is the case the forum software has an ignore feature that works well and I direct those with this problem to simply place the member in question on their “Ignore List”.
Matthew 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.
M
Mijoy2
Guest
Wonderful thought and post Joan89. And it goes hand in hand with many of our most cherished prayers.
“forgive us our sins as we forgive others”
“pray for us sinners now and at the hour of **our **death”
"lead all souls to heaven especially those in most need of your mercy:
not me, or my or I but us we those our and all.
These plurals do not refer to saints, or even to christians, they refer to the sons and daughters of God, which include atheists.
M
Mike_D30
Guest
No problem, I’ve been where you are before when I was younger, but agnosticism and atheism left with no no more answers than I had before. Explaining faith and belief is a tough thing to do to an atheist, because they give no credence to human spirituality and a believer’s communion with God. God works on people in His own time. I have no doubt God is working on you right now, that’s why you’re here…
God Bless!
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
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nucatholic
Guest
Gottle of Geer said:## Try sitting on it
Or, ask what antecedent reason there is for asserting its presence, if there is no evidence that you know of for asserting its presence.
People don’t usually make claims that X is so, unless they have some reason to make them ##
Vern Humphrey already raised this objection and I changed my proposition to a cat goddess who would not have an actual body. I might possibly have a reason for believing in the cat goddess if I felt something missing in my life and the cat goddess gave me meaning. Lets say that I felt the cat goddess was always watching me, protecting me and approving of me when I did good deeds. Of course there is no evidence for this. There is no reason for asserting the existence of God either. There is no empirical evidence. There are religious experiences but I could also claim that I have had a religious experience of the cat goddess. Is it more probable that I can account for my religious experience psychologically and scientifically or is it more probable that an actual cat goddess is the cause of these experiences?
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Contarini
Guest
nucatholic,
If you came to me with arguments for the existence of the cat goddess, I would treat them with however much respect they deserved. I would not make the ridiculous argument that because the cat goddess is not directly verifiable empirically therefore she does not exist. That kind of argument is bogus no matter what religion it is being used against. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophy.
Edwin
If you came to me with arguments for the existence of the cat goddess, I would treat them with however much respect they deserved. I would not make the ridiculous argument that because the cat goddess is not directly verifiable empirically therefore she does not exist. That kind of argument is bogus no matter what religion it is being used against. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophy.
Edwin
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nucatholic
Guest
Soundbytes don’t do anyone any good and I hope you aren’t passing that last quote off as your own. There ARE more things on earth and in the heavens than we know. No philosopher or scientist would ever say that we have everything figured out. By the way, you are absolutely correct in saying that this type of argumentation would apply to all religions. That is the point. Its not an exclusive argument against Christianity but all religious belief.
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