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seakelp
Guest
There’s really only Catholic U for English speakers.
canonlaw.cua.edu/
I think there may be a Canadian university that has courses in English. Not sure, though.
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canonlaw.cua.edu/
I think there may be a Canadian university that has courses in English. Not sure, though.
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HumblePilgrim
Guest
I just wanted to recommend a book written by a professor that I know. It is called “Can a Good Christian Be a Good Lawyer?: Homilies, Witnesses, and Reflections”. The author is a practicing Catholic and a law professor. Please, for all of you Catholic lawyers out there h:ave a read.
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PolarGuy
Guest
So many unhappy lawyers.
But I am not among them. I’m a happy lawyer. A happy litigator, even.
And a Churchgoing Catholic!
Let me offer some alternative views (since we argue, no?):
Just my $0.02.
But I am not among them. I’m a happy lawyer. A happy litigator, even.
And a Churchgoing Catholic!
Let me offer some alternative views (since we argue, no?):
- I’ve heard it all: No jobs. Long hours. Nasty people to deal with. Guess what? That’s true of basically any profession, particularly any profession that deals with the public.
- As my father said to me once, “every profession has room for a good one.” Doomsayers will point out all the facts of #1 above – but there’s room for a good one. Thanks Dad!
- Is being a litigator challenging? Sure. Difficult? At times, very difficult. But…I support my family. I use my God-given brains to the fullest extent I have them.
- I do interesting work. To all griping lawyers – why are there so many lawyer shows on TV? Because litigation is waaaaaaaay more interesting that what 99% of TV viewers are doing with their lives. Litigating a traffic ticket is more exciting than what 90% of people will ever do. The most fun I’ve ever had professionally was being peppered with questions for 40 minutes by appellate judges in a news-reported case.
- Like it or not, it is still a profession with built-in respectability. Getting a law degree and passing the bar exam is still a demanding task, and we want lawyers to be smart people.
- It’s clean indoor office work. I could be working on utility lines in subzero cold. So could you.
Just my $0.02.
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Yeoman
Guest
Happy lawyer, I’m happy you posted. There are some who like it, and we should hear from them.
Let me charitably counter a couple of your points, however, as I think they might be a bit misleading in a way.
I’m glad you enjoy that, but those things aren’t necessarily enjoyable by all, even most people. The point I specifically want to note is the TV show item, as I have talked to at least one person who was advising a child to go to law school as that person loved tv legal drama.
Why so many television shows? Why so many war movies, or crime movies, or police dramas? Or gut wrenching love stories.
Not because people love to fight in wars, or love to be victims of crimes, or love experiencing angst. People like watching drama and tense situation (well, a lot do), not so much experiencing them.
There’s something in the human nature that likes to hear stories of trouble, which doesn’t equate with experiencing it. Anyone entering a stressful occupation based upon portrayals of that ought to ponder that. I’m sure we’ve all known one or more people who entered the service due to portrayals of it only to become very disillusioned, for example (although I liked my peacetime military service quite a bit).
It is clean indoor work, which one of the things I’ve never liked about it. That interestingly is one of those things that’s really in the eye of the beholder, although a lot of people feel that way. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked out my window into a blizzard and envied the cattle farmers who were out feeding their cattle in the snow, but gotten those calls where somebody says “good day to be indoors, eh?”
I don’t think I’m the only one who feels that way, however. Some recent studies attribute a lot of modern unhappiness to being in our clean indoor environments. We just aren’t DNA wired for it. Or at least some of us aren’t. The old DNA, I guess.
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LionsDen66
Guest
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut and I’m glad there are happy lawyers among us. I once felt as you do. I enjoyed being peppered by questions by judges, enjoyed doing battle with opposing counsel at trial and enjoyed the pressure of having to perform well for a client who’s life/freedom or livelihood/ fortune depended upon my skill. And I once enjoyed watching realistic legal TV dramas. The point I’ve tried to make here is simply that I no longer feel this way and have become burned out and jaded by the profession. I no longer enjoy fighting/arguing. I no longer enjoy that my success must, by definition, result in someone else’s loss. I have lost respect for judges when I’ve come to realize are just political favorites who have hidden agendas. I no longer watch legal dramas on TV – rather I enjoy episodes of Everybody Loves Raymond or Seinfeld or Restaurant Impossible, to name a few. I could go on, but I’m preparing a cross-examination of a elderly victim who’s home was (allegedly) broken into by my client and who’s dog ran out of the house and never returned. Peace.
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Yeoman
Guest
I really hear you.
I occasionally ask my wife, whose known me for half my life, if I ever liked this. Sometimes I think very early on, maybe I did. But if that’s the case, I honestly can’t recall it now. I can recall a few fleeting moments like that, but that’s what they were, fleeting.
One thing you said really hits home, that being the comment about judges. I used to be in awe of judges, but after watching the appointment process, this is no longer true. And I used to be in awe of some types of proceedings where the great ones were supposed to be, but having been there and heard them, it was deflating.
I never liked most legal dramas however, with few exceptions.
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LionsDen66
Guest
Thanks for your thoughts. I live in a state which still elects their judges by popular vote. As you can imagine, some pretty unqualified political hand-shakers have ascended to the bench. And the ‘black robe disease’ seems to strike so many of them – they start to glory in their being called “your Honor” or “judge” all the time and their egos become nauseating. The empathy which should be their trademark becomes lost in the arrogance. Remember the show “Night Court?” The judge on that program was a great combination of humor, wisdom and fairness. I don’t see too many judges like him these days. As for courtroom drama, there was one show called Philadelphia which only lasted a couple of seasons which I thought was a dead-on accurate (no pun intended) depiction of the criminal justice system. Perhaps it was too realistic to last because it didn’t have enough cleavage or headline-grabbing scenarios. The others I’ve caught here and there seemed very unrealistic by comparison.
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Tampa_Dave
Guest
Interesting thread. I’ve practiced law since 1985, serving as a US Army JAG, Special Assistant US Attorney, federal litigation attorney, and a criminal defense attorney in private practice. Other than being a lifeguard, being a criminal defense attorney is the best job I ever had. I’ll hang it up in a few years to become a professional beach bum. I’m ready to pass the baton to my youngest daughter, who will attend the University of Miami School of Law with a significant scholarship this Fall. My oldest daughter obtained her MPA but, alas, she married a lawyer. Must be something in the water…
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Yeoman
Guest
I’ve been a lifeguard myself (great job) and a soldier, but an enlisted man (which I also liked quite a bit). I’d have to say that having worked quite a few jobs, having started pretty young, lawyer is the second to worst job I’ve ever had (fast food worker was the absolute worst).
So to happy lawyers like yourself, why do you like it? I don’t find hardly any lawyers who will admit to liking the practice, so I’m curious what it is that you actually like about the real nuts and bolts of it, having practiced so long.
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Yeoman
Guest
I used to watch and really like Night Court myself.
In film depictions of lawyers, my favorite is Anatomy of a Murder. I don’t do criminal law, but the judge in that one is a great one, and some judges are sort of like that. Distressingly few. The depictions of the lawyers in that one, and the courtroom scenes, are great as well. The novel its based on was written by a judge.
I also really like The Caine Mutiny and The Caine Mutiny Court Martial.
Other than that, I can’t think of a courtroom movie I really like. I’ve watched The Verdict several times but have real reservations about it (pretty hard on the Catholic Church, I’ll note). My Cousin Vinny is funny, but of course it’s not a serious treatment of the law.
In television shows, I’ll confess that I’ve never liked lawyer shows. That should have told me something, but there’s not one that really deals with the law I like. About the only exception was Night Court, which isn’t a serious treatment of the topic, and JAG, which clearly wasn’t a serious treatment of the topic.
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Yeoman
Guest
I guess I should note, in movies about lawyers, another great one is A Man For All Seasons. A real classic.
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Yeoman
Guest
As a followup to the Happy Lawyers, one thing I sort of want to gently ask is what their basic background is.
The reason for that is that I have a hard time seeing how folks who have done or experienced things outside the law could like it much. I know that sounds harsh, but the perception of respect, and even intelligence, as field attributes are really illusions to a large extent. It’s easier to maintain the illusions if you haven’t been exposed to the outside, too much.
And I wonder to what extent those who feel that this is a “good job” feel that way because it’s their unique personalities (which is what I suspect it is), or if its just better than what they’ve otherwise experienced. At least one of the happiest lawyers I know has such a boring pre law life that the law seems wildly exciting to what he experienced before, which wasn’t too much. That may be a good thing for him, although generally its better for the client if the lawyer has a wide exposure to things.
I also wonder to what extent we acknowledge that we “help people” by hurting other people, at least to some degree. A person has to be really comfortable with the system being the best possible to be fully comfortable with that. Particularly for those with a courtroom practice.
Indeed, while we do occasionally get to help a truly deserving person, that experience is sufficiently rare that I found myself asking if helping the few truly needy, truly appreciative, truly desperate people I have in my career really could be the reason that I seem to be marooned in it. Maybe, but if so I’m paying a high personal price for it, but then perhaps that’s the price I’m supposed to pay.
The reason for that is that I have a hard time seeing how folks who have done or experienced things outside the law could like it much. I know that sounds harsh, but the perception of respect, and even intelligence, as field attributes are really illusions to a large extent. It’s easier to maintain the illusions if you haven’t been exposed to the outside, too much.
And I wonder to what extent those who feel that this is a “good job” feel that way because it’s their unique personalities (which is what I suspect it is), or if its just better than what they’ve otherwise experienced. At least one of the happiest lawyers I know has such a boring pre law life that the law seems wildly exciting to what he experienced before, which wasn’t too much. That may be a good thing for him, although generally its better for the client if the lawyer has a wide exposure to things.
I also wonder to what extent we acknowledge that we “help people” by hurting other people, at least to some degree. A person has to be really comfortable with the system being the best possible to be fully comfortable with that. Particularly for those with a courtroom practice.
Indeed, while we do occasionally get to help a truly deserving person, that experience is sufficiently rare that I found myself asking if helping the few truly needy, truly appreciative, truly desperate people I have in my career really could be the reason that I seem to be marooned in it. Maybe, but if so I’m paying a high personal price for it, but then perhaps that’s the price I’m supposed to pay.
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Yeoman
Guest
Of course, all this negative thinking here on my part may be the byproduct of having been up until 01:00 am, and worrying about the law, something I’ve done a million times before prior to a major event of some sort, and which I know that if I remain in the law I’ll do a million more times. Up to 01:00, back up at 04:00, and expected to be perfect that work day.
As part of this morose thinking, I suppose, I have to ponder two additional things, which are:
- Maybe my options are sufficiently narrow that all other job prospects I might possibly be able to walk into are every bit as bad. How would I know? I’ve worked other jobs, but not other indoor jobs. Perhaps every single profession is just as bad as the law. Maybe even worse. Maybe the high degree of complaints about the law reflect a greater degree of articulateness and analytical thought, and not the conditions?
- As I was pondering last night (this morning) at age 50, maybe I’ve just shot my bolt. I’d think that anyone seeking to enter the law at this age to be completely insane. Maybe it’s equally insane for me to hope to get out? Perhaps acceptance of career failure in personal terms (not in worldly terms, I constantly hear what a “good” lawyer I am, how much I care for my clients, and how impressive I am in court) is my lot. If so, perhaps I should just accept personal failure and let this wind down until I can take retirement, no matter what that means, some 15 years from now. Focus on other interests and hobbies, like so many other people do, and like so many lawyers do, but without making that hobby a destructive vice, like drinking or skirt chasing, as is so common in our field.
Stuff a person probably ought not to ponder with little sleep.
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Peter_Plato
Guest
You may be interested in a British miniseries called Injustice (AcornTV, Netflix) about a criminal lawyer who successfully defends individuals accused of murder until he discovers that one of those individuals was actually guilty but acquitted because of his legal prowess. He suffers a psychological ‘episode’ as a result. The storyline takes a rather unexpected turn and delves into the nature of ‘justice’ within a flawed legal system.
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LionsDen66
Guest
“until he discovers that one of those individuals was actually guilty” … as someone who has spent over 2 decades in the criminal justice system, the reality is that most clients are, in fact, guilty of at least one of the crimes charged. The lawyers know it, the clients know it, the judges know it, the cops know it and deep down in places we don’t like to talk about, the potential jurors know it, too. It is the rarity to actually represent an “innocent” client – and when you do represent the “innocent” client, the pressure you face as the attorney is extreme.
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Yeoman
Guest
Indeed, I had the same reaction, although I don’t practice criminal law.
One of the things I think laymen have a hard time grasping is that lawyers often know, indeed they want to know, of the guilt or innocence, or the culpability or lack of culpability, of their clients, and manage it. We’re not that concerned really with the ultimate question in these regards so much as we are the results. And most practicing lawyers have to accept that they will operate where they defend the guilty.
But let me go one more step, I frankly feel that prosecutors in the criminal context come to know that they sometimes prosecute the innocent, or that they over charge the accused. I do see them occasionally, to their credit, and often at their personal cost in the public’s eye, dismiss charges against somebody, but more often than that somebody will be charged with a large offense and “lesser included offenses.”
By the same token, it’s extremely common for plaintiff’s lawyers to file lawsuits where they are very well aware that the Plaintiff is entitled to little, or even nothing.
So, at the end of the day, the criminal defense lawyer often defends the person whom he knows to be guilty. The prosecutor sometimes prosecutes somebody that he doesn’t feel to be personally guilty, or at least guilty of the highest crime charged. The civil litigator defends the client that he knows did wrong, or prosecutes an action on behalf of somebody he knows to be non deserving. All this is quite common.
But it’s also a bit warping. We often define victory in ways that other people cannot grasp. For those defending, getting a lesser conviction is a victory. Or, in the civil context, if a person pays less than we thought they might, that’s a victory. For the plaintiff’s lawyer, in spite of all the hype they will often put out about going to trial, settling a case for an amount they regard as adequate without a trial is a victory.
Even in other context, constant moral or intellectual compromise is in the works. When we draft contracts, we draft them for a client to their advantage. When we work on wills, we do what the testator wants, not what we feel that they should want. And so on.
The reason all of this matters in the context of this thread is that it’s hard to see how a person with deep moral convictions cannot be impacted by this over time. A person has to have an extremely deep belief in the value of the legal system in order not to despair at least a bit over this. The general thesis is that by doing the very best we can for our clients, we advance the system, and by doing that we insure the best system possible. But that’s a belief that we have to hold in general while knowing in the particular that it often does not work that way in any one particular case.
The best argument, fwiw, that I’ve heard for the system is actually a line out of A Man For All Seasons, in which St. Thomas More notes that he’d give the Devil his due in court, for the safety of all in court. It’s a sound argument, but frankly at least in a lot of examples, those who serve the system are worn down by it.
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Yeoman
Guest
I guess following up on the last several items I’ve posted here, and given that there’s some content Catholic lawyers who have posted here, I’ll pose this question here.
One of the things I’m struggling with here is that I can’t find my way out of this profession, and that means I have to reconcile with it somehow. In my more delusional, and therefore contented, moments I imagine myself getting out of this occupation and on to something else. But in my more realistic ones, I know that I’m going to fail at that, and therefore I’m going to have to keep on. I have too many responsibilities such that even a many like myself, who has low material interests, doesn’t want a new house, doesn’t want a new car, doesn’t want a boat, etc., can’t pull up and get out. Two sick family members to consider, and two children to educate.
So, that being the case, how does a person face work that has no value in your eyes? People have suggested to me looking at each individual client and looking for the Face of God in them (I’m paraphrasing), or just accepting that it is what it is, and that “it’s just a job.” But I’ll confess that while those things are excellent ideas, what it mostly seems to me is that my reward for doing a good job, which I try very much to do, is more work. I should be, and must be, thankful for that, but I have a hard time accepting that.
Others have suggested, and I do not disagree, to find value in some other hobby or endeavor. If only I had the time.
Anyhow, given as there are some here who apparently have found contentment in the law, I’m curious how they did that. And for others who have faced this situation with some sort of employment, I’m curious what they did, if they’ve found meaning or at least acceptance with the situation.
One of the things I’m struggling with here is that I can’t find my way out of this profession, and that means I have to reconcile with it somehow. In my more delusional, and therefore contented, moments I imagine myself getting out of this occupation and on to something else. But in my more realistic ones, I know that I’m going to fail at that, and therefore I’m going to have to keep on. I have too many responsibilities such that even a many like myself, who has low material interests, doesn’t want a new house, doesn’t want a new car, doesn’t want a boat, etc., can’t pull up and get out. Two sick family members to consider, and two children to educate.
So, that being the case, how does a person face work that has no value in your eyes? People have suggested to me looking at each individual client and looking for the Face of God in them (I’m paraphrasing), or just accepting that it is what it is, and that “it’s just a job.” But I’ll confess that while those things are excellent ideas, what it mostly seems to me is that my reward for doing a good job, which I try very much to do, is more work. I should be, and must be, thankful for that, but I have a hard time accepting that.
Others have suggested, and I do not disagree, to find value in some other hobby or endeavor. If only I had the time.
Anyhow, given as there are some here who apparently have found contentment in the law, I’m curious how they did that. And for others who have faced this situation with some sort of employment, I’m curious what they did, if they’ve found meaning or at least acceptance with the situation.
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LionsDen66
Guest
Let me throw out a suggestion for you which might resonate. Consider estate planning. If you’re math inclined, enjoy finances and taxation issues and enjoy the ‘counseling’ part of being counselor, this could be a great transition for you. There’s an organization called Wealth Counsel which provides high-level education, training and resources to help a newbie or seasoned trial lawyer (like you) who wants to change careers within the law. If you’re a trial lawyer, you’re good speaking in front of people. You can put on seminars in your community to educate people about the need for modern estate planning, offer some cookies and coffee and build some good will. Offer free consultations and just sit and talk with people about what’s going on in their lives, their kids lives and help them prepare for not only their inevitable death, but for the more likely scenario of their incapacitation. I did this exact thing for a year (last year in fact) and I saw a great deal of potential both from an income standpoint and also a job satisfaction standpoint. Do some research in your area as to how many lawyers are doing elder law or estate planning and if there is room for your talent, you could escape the prison of trial work. Wealth Counsel has some testimonials from lawyers who did the same thing – went from trial work to estate planning and were very content. Thoughts?
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Yeoman
Guest
I had considered something like that once, but then let the thought wonder away. I’ll reconsider it.
It probably seems odd for folks from the outside (or maybe not) but once you have a line of work built up it’s really hard to shift gears. There’s a gap in your income when you do that as its somewhat starting over, so you feel that you can’t give up on your current work, which makes taking up the new line of work tough.
In my case, I have to admit that for me personally the law was simply a mistake. I may be in the classic can’t see the forest situation, but it’s hard for me to imagine liking anything to do with the law now. I used to think that being a judge would be really worthwhile and that I’d enjoy that, and that was a goal of mine, but now even that seems lackluster. Bad burn out, I guess.
It probably seems odd for folks from the outside (or maybe not) but once you have a line of work built up it’s really hard to shift gears. There’s a gap in your income when you do that as its somewhat starting over, so you feel that you can’t give up on your current work, which makes taking up the new line of work tough.
In my case, I have to admit that for me personally the law was simply a mistake. I may be in the classic can’t see the forest situation, but it’s hard for me to imagine liking anything to do with the law now. I used to think that being a judge would be really worthwhile and that I’d enjoy that, and that was a goal of mine, but now even that seems lackluster. Bad burn out, I guess.
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LionsDen66
Guest
You’re speaking my language, believe me. I feel the same exact way. And if you simply cannot afford to make a switch to that area of law or any other career, then I’m out of suggestions.
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