Unhappy marriage

[shelby_sun]

It never occurred me to see my father in this way either. He, like your husband, has many good qualities and he can be very kind. But he also exhibit behaviors that can be classified as mental abuse, and, even though there was a lot of good, both my mother and I suffered a great deal from his abusive words and actions, so much that I went to therapy, was medicated, etc. To this day, I am still trying to make peace with it and forgive and move on.

I know just what your talking about. May take a life time, but everyday we wake up and try again is a step forward! Prayer for you.

 

[Xantippe]

Lillibut said:

“Xantippe, I’ll take your advice on board about the personal finance course. It certainly isn’t going to hurt”

Excellent!

About “struggling,” I actually know exactly what you mean. We used to live in Washington DC, and there’s a special kind of upper middle class “struggling” where on paper, income is high, but you wind up getting eaten alive by housing costs and kid expenses and taxes and spend $400k-$500k to live in a terrible neighborhood with a long commute. We eventually gave up on looking for an affordable house and moved to Texas, where we have half the housing expenses, practically no commute, cheaper groceries, a good Catholic community, a good neighborhood, a good college community, lots of great activities for kids, and an excellent school.

There are two different approaches you might find helpful (although a British-specific book would be even better).

1. Dave Ramsey’s Total Money Makeover book, which teaches the Baby Steps:

daveramsey.com/new/baby-steps/

This is an excellent, easy-to-follow approach, and it’s what my family has been doing for the past 7 years, with very good results. Within 7 years, we paid off my small student loan, bought and paid off a car, paid off all credit card debt, saved an emergency fund and bought a house (with some grandma and grandpa help on the house).

1. Alternately, Elizabeth Warren’s All Your Worth

getrichslowly.org/blog/2007/12/03/book-review-all-your-worth/

I don’t actually recommend the book itself (the Baby Steps are easier to implement step-by-step), but the central budget idea is brilliant. She tells you to spend only 50% of income on fixed needs, 30% on wants and then 20% on savings (including non-basic debt-repayment). The genius of this approach is that if a catastrophic event hits and your income is halved (which could very easily happen to you), you can stop the savings and the wants and still manage your actual needs on 50% of your old income.

 

[Lillibut]

It never occurred me to see my father in this way either. He, like your husband, has many good qualities and he can be very kind. But he also exhibit behaviors that can be classified as mental abuse, and, even though there was a lot of good, both my mother and I suffered a great deal from his abusive words and actions, so much that I went to therapy, was medicated, etc. To this day, I am still trying to make peace with it and forgive and move on.

Maine52

I feel for you. It is obvious from your posts to me that you are still healing from your past experiences and it is admirable that you seek to protect me by wishing for me to learn from your experience and wisdom.

I have taken on board your comments, hard though it may be for me to (wo)man up and confront what you are telling me it is undeniable that you have discerned something which I have been unwilling or unable to see (blinded from the wood by the trees).

Thank you for your wisdom and prayers. For my part, I pray that the Holy Spirit may bestow healing grace upon you. Amen

 

[Lillibut]

Xantippe

Thanks for the book recommendations. I will give them a try.

About “struggling,” I actually know exactly what you mean. We used to live in Washington DC, and there’s a special kind of upper middle class “struggling” where on paper, income is high, but you wind up getting eaten alive by housing costs and kid expenses and taxes and spend $400k-$500k to live in a terrible neighborhood with a long commute.

I’m glad you understand the situation. I wasn’t sure. However $400k is way beyond our income. Maybe I’m not as well off as I thought

The idea of moving etc is tempting. If I really believed it was possible I’d do it in a heartbeat. We have looked into the idea a number of times over the past 13 years but the risks are high and the opportunities (job wise) have never materialised. We do keep on the lookout for new opportunities and my husband has even been to interviews but nothing panned out .

The most recent was about a year ago when he applied for a lectureship at a local university, on approximately 60% of his current income but still in the high earner tax bracket. It would have been a steep income shift but we could see opportunities for reduced costs too. He was turned down because of his lack of published papers .

Another time a VP in his company approached him about taking up an office/lab based role at head office in the US. We gave it a lot of thought and were prepared to go ahead until we found out that as an internal transfer within the company there would be no relocation budget available and we just didn’t have the funds to cover the costs of relocating our whole family ourselves. The airfares for the 5 of us, legal fees, selling our home, searching for a new one, visas, schools and transporting our personal possessions would have run into thousands of pounds which we just don’t have. Added in to the mix was consideration about the disruption to the children’s education, neglecting my duty of care for my own mother and the fear of leaving behind the wonderful parish community which I feel blessed to have been placed in and in which I have invested so much time into building my independent life. It was a scary prospect to have to start all over again in another country. All told I consider that God was telling us “not now”.

Since then budgets here in the UK have been getting much tighter in all areas of life and across the country. Jobs are scarce, especially in highly specialised areas such as his. His own company has laid off 1000’s of staff worldwide and are constantly looking for further ways to reduce costs. Believe me, we are only too aware of how precarious our situation is and are doing what we can to mitigate matters. In the meantime for the sake of my mental health I can’t afford to worry about our future finances too much. I’ve got enough going on in the here and now to worry and stress over, and I’m trying not to obsess about those things too. So, for now I counsel myself to trust in the providence of God that He knows we are doing what we can to help ourselves and remind myself that He will be with us through any material hardships we may have to endure.

 

[Galbin]

We are certainly a lot better off than most and I am grateful for what we have. What we don’t have is spare cash available to splash out on personal enrichment (including online financial courses if I’m honest). We pay the bills and I can’t say that we want materially for anything. It’s just that housing, food, fuel, school and childcare costs for a family in the UK are very high. We also cannot afford to deliberately half our household income if there is an alternative.

The average family size in the UK is now less than 2 children i.e below population sustainability level, which coincidentally is why we have such high immigration. By having only 3 children our family has more than double average living costs (which are already noted to be high) with none of the assistance that lower income households would be eligible for. I’m not complaining, just stating facts. Most middle income families have one child. A few have two. More than two children is considered a large family here. More than three kids and the rest of society looks askance (even church members ) and the implicit assumption being fed to us continuously in the media is that any family with more than two children must be either extremely wealthy or living off benefits. It’s a very uncomfortable society in which to raise a Catholic family

I don’t live in the UK, but I live near there and lived in England for 3 years. Unfortunately, Lillibut is correct in her assertion that life is very hard income wise for the middle class in the UK.

Federal taxes are much higher in the UK than in the US*, and moving to a different city doesn’t make a difference as the local taxes do not vary much by area. The local tax (called council tax) is actually dependent on the size of your house and when it was built, not the city you live in. Cars and petrol (gas) also cost an amount that would make most Americans gasp with horror. Even the most expensive gas station in the US would be rock bottom prices for petrol in the UK. Then there is the fact that houses in the US are so big compared to the UK. That is one thing I have always been amazed by. I’ve seen houses that are twice the size of mine on sale in places like Virginia, yet the sale price is the same price as my home here. Also, wages are higher in the US in general.

I’ve actually found it quite surprising to read of families of 7 or 9 kids in the US with only one parent working outside the home. Yes, these parents have to be careful and save money, but in the UK the family would literally need to choose between food or going without electricity if they couldn’t access welfare. They also would likely need some form of governmental help just to give their kids the basics of food, shelter and clothing. I wish I were kidding.

I suppose the one thing the British and American folks have in common though is that the middle class don’t receive any help. If the OP had never worked and neither had her husband, she would be entitled to a lot of financial help she wouldn’t be entitled to now.

*I’ve spent a lot of time in the US over the yrs, and have many American friends. So just wanted to give my perspective.

 

[Lillibut]

I don’t live in the UK, but I live near there and lived in England for 3 years. Unfortunately, Lillibut is correct in her assertion that life is very hard income wise for the middle class in the UK.

Federal taxes are much higher in the UK than in the US*, and moving to a different city doesn’t make a difference as the local taxes do not vary much by area. The local tax (called council tax) is actually dependent on the size of your house and when it was built, not the city you live in. Cars and petrol (gas) also cost an amount that would make most Americans gasp with horror. Even the most expensive gas station in the US would be rock bottom prices for petrol in the UK. Then there is the fact that houses in the US are so big compared to the UK. That is one thing I have always been amazed by. I’ve seen houses that are twice the size of mine on sale in places like Virginia, yet the sale price is the same price as my home here. Also, wages are higher in the US in general.

I’ve actually found it quite surprising to read of families of 7 or 9 kids in the US with only one parent working outside the home. Yes, these parents have to be careful and save money, but in the UK the family would literally need to choose between food or going without electricity if they couldn’t access welfare. They also would likely need some form of governmental help just to give their kids the basics of food, shelter and clothing. I wish I were kidding.

I suppose the one thing the British and American folks have in common though is that the middle class don’t receive any help. If the OP had never worked and neither had her husband, she would be entitled to a lot of financial help she wouldn’t be entitled to now.

*I’ve spent a lot of time in the US over the yrs, and have many American friends. So just wanted to give my perspective.

THIS.
I too am often amazed by how much our cultures differ. It is certainly true that NO middle income family in the UK could possibly afford to support 7 children on only one income. It would be impossible to afford to even find housing large enough unless the family had significant capital to start with, and I’m talking in excess of £30k in cash funds for a deposit, probably more.

 

[Galbin]

THIS.
I too am often amazed by how much our cultures differ. It is certainly true that NO middle income family in the UK could possibly afford to support 7 children on only one income. It would be impossible to afford to even find housing large enough unless the family had significant capital to start with, and I’m talking in excess of £30k in cash funds for a deposit, probably more.

Yes. It is pretty crazy. I think one of the biggest differences is how much area makes a difference. So, for example, house prices are insane in San Francisco (ppl there often take out 2 mortgages!!), yet you can get lovely houses in Texas for the $250K or less mark. You just couldn’t get a house this size for £200K anywhere in the UK: realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/16330-Clearcrest-Dr_Houston_TX_77059_M87802-70567?row=2&source=web.

I have a friend who lives in NY state and she and her dh really struggle on her one income. Yet her house is considered just a normal size, whereas to my European eyes it is massive.

The only real difference in cost of living in the UK would be if you moved from inner London to anywhere else. Otherwise houses, petrol, taxes, groceries etc. all cost pretty much the same in Manchester as they do in Newcastle. My parents had 5 kids in the 80s in a country near to yours and with similar costings (when cost of living was lower than now) and even then they really struggled. This was despite them both having good jobs, having very low childcare costs and us having free education.

In all honesty, the only families in the UK that can afford to have more than 4 children are either the very poor whose families are completely subsidised by welfare, or the very rich who earn well into the six figures. Whereas it seems in the US that you could manage to feed and clothe that amount of kids if you budget well.

 

[Patavium]

E-7
I knew there was a reason that He guided me to tell my story here despite my fears about divulging too much personal information. YOU are that reason.

I thought my circumstances were pretty much unique. The chance that anyone else was in this position were almost zero. But here you are!

Your story has given me hope. Something I haven’t felt for a long time. Not entirely for myself although I have received great comfort from realising I am not alone, someone else is actually living under similar circumstances, someone really does understand. But also for you, please heed the lessons of my experience, you are still in that early phase. Let him read my story and realise how easily a couple can get trapped on that hamster wheel.

The worst part for me is that no matter how accurate my charts are if he isn’t here during the safe period then we can go for months without making love. That would be hard in a normal relationship when there are plenty of opportunities to express love and intimacy in other ways but when you don’t spend very much time together anyway it is deathly.

When I read how NFP has brought couples so much closer it makes me so sad because that isn’t how it works in my relationship, the opportunities to give regular small expressions of love and intimacy are so few. For example, this last week my husband left last Monday morning returning late Friday, exhausted as usual only to fly out again on Sunday morning, he barely had time to recharge his batteries and repack his suitcase. We had no alone time at all he was too tired. He wont be back until late Saturday evening by which time I will be fertile again. Our third month in a row where we’ve not been able to make love. It is incredibly frustrating for him and not great for me either.

It is exhausting and terribly lonely to share a bed (occasionally) but not my life or love with my husband. He’s there in body but I may as well be invisible. It is actually easier when he isn’t home.

I particularly identify with you about working at home. That’s the worst of both worlds. I always feel like a nuisance and interruption. The children have to be quiet when he’s talking to customers on the phone - difficult for a 3 year old who’s just hurt himself or having a normal ‘tantrum’. I’ve lost count of the times I have been trying to be firm in the face of a tantrum only for my husband to explode out of his office to glare at us both for making too much noise because he’s in the middle of a conference call. It isn’t nice. It isn’t nice or comfortable for him either but I’d still rather he worked at home than travel. It just takes very careful management of activities with the children, out of the house for office hours, after that my husband has to manage his expectations, it is our home first and his workspace second. It has taken 13 years to establish this understanding but still the children can’t be boisterous or make a lot of noise whilst he is working, whether that’s 10am or 8pm.

Anyway thank you so much for posting. God speaks to us in unexpected ways. X

Thanks for sharing your story Lillibut. I read it and as I was reading it, let’s say that I became worried as my wife E_7 and I are following a similar path. Right now, I am young, and I am not a well known scientist in my field, except for a small subfield; my published papers from my Ph.D. are being cited profusely. I am currently a Research Scientist working with a big name Professor from a Ivy League University (one of those that is mentioned all the time in movies). E_7 and I decided not to continue down this career as I have no interest in becoming faculty, and I would like to be a research scientist in a private lab or private company or think tank. Unfortunately, I have not being able to transition to a new position yet. I do not want a life similar to my Ph.D. advisor or my current boss, where they sacrifice time spent with the family to do more research. I do not deny that both lead very successful lives financially and professionally, but at what cost?. I think first comes God then comes the family and then the job. I LOVE my job, I enjoy doing what I do, but there is a finite amount of time available per day, and I would like to share a proportion of it with my God and my wife, and in the future with my children. I fear I may be trapped in a career similar to your husband if I go outside academia, but do note that staying in academia may not be that great. By the way, unless your husband continued publishing papers and/or registering patents, yes it may be too for him to return to Academia…

God bless!, and E_7 and I are praying for you and your husband.

 

[Xantippe]

Sorry for the lack of clarity–I meant that entry level homes in metro-accessible neighborhoods were $400k-$500k, rather than that the yearly income was at that level. That was just before the housing bubble started to deflate.

Lillibut said:

“The most recent was about a year ago when he applied for a lectureship at a local university, on approximately 60% of his current income but still in the high earner tax bracket. It would have been a steep income shift but we could see opportunities for reduced costs too. He was turned down because of his lack of published papers.”

My understanding is that it’s often possible for professors in the US to make outside income in addition to salary. Research grants, for instance, will supplement salaried income, plus one might have speaking engagements (that means travel, though), and other income. One of my relatives is a professor in one of the softer research subjects (although my relative’s work is plenty quantitative) and that relative’s teaching income is maybe a quarter of total income. This means more work, obviously, but there’s an increase in security from not having all income flowing from a single source.

There’s a Russian curse (from an old Soviet comedy) that goes like this: “May you live just on your salary.”

“Another time a VP in his company approached him about taking up an office/lab based role at head office in the US. We gave it a lot of thought and were prepared to go ahead until we found out that as an internal transfer within the company there would be no relocation budget available and we just didn’t have the funds to cover the costs of relocating our whole family ourselves.”

Holy cow! This company is cheap, cheap, cheap.

“So, for now I counsel myself to trust in the providence of God that He knows we are doing what we can to help ourselves and remind myself that He will be with us through any material hardships we may have to endure.”

Very good.

A little savings would help, too.

Galbin said:

“They also would likely need some form of governmental help just to give their kids the basics of food, shelter and clothing. I wish I were kidding.”

As you probably know, food and clothing in particular are very inexpensive in most of the US.

If you were in Northern Virginia (the part that’s a suburb of Washington DC), that’s actually an extremely expensive area for the US.

“Yes. It is pretty crazy. I think one of the biggest differences is how much area makes a difference. So, for example, house prices are insane in San Francisco (ppl there often take out 2 mortgages!!), yet you can get lovely houses in Texas for the $250K or less mark.”

I think in our area that the reasonable middle class housing starts around $100k (the wrong side of town here has homes around $40k) and really nice upper middle class homes start at around $200k. I actually know a number of graduate students who have bought houses while in graduate school.

“In all honesty, the only families in the UK that can afford to have more than 4 children are either the very poor whose families are completely subsidised by welfare, or the very rich who earn well into the six figures. Whereas it seems in the US that you could manage to feed and clothe that amount of kids if you budget well.”

In what we call “fly-over country.”

 

[Galbin]

Holy cow! This company is cheap, cheap, cheap.

Yep they really are! Crazy to think they wouldn’t help the family out. Most companies would.

As you probably know, food and clothing in particular are very inexpensive in most of the US.

Yep. Even the grass fed poultry for example is cheaper than here. US Wellness meats sells a pack of 4 pastured raised chicken breasts for $12. I’ve seen pastured raised chicken costing $10 for 2 breasts in the UK.

If you were in Northern Virginia (the part that’s a suburb of Washington DC), that’s actually an extremely expensive area for the US.

The house for sale was in Bristow, VA. It’s about an hour’s drive from DC. DC surely is expensive for sure. Up there with SF and NY.

I think in our area that the reasonable middle class housing starts around $100k (the wrong side of town here has homes around $40k) and really nice upper middle class homes start at around $200k. I actually know a number of graduate students who have bought houses while in graduate school.

See, that is the difference. Even the dodgiest part of any town in the cheapest area of the country would never have houses for sale for $40K. A 3/4 bedroom house in the worst area of the worst city would cost $150 minimum. Nice upper middle class houses start around $330.* Plus, the nice upper middle class homes in the UK are a lot smaller than the ones in the US. 1500 sq ft is considered a generously sized home in the UK and in my country. Everyone who comes to my house talks about how big is it, being just over 1500 sq ft. Whereas aside from the expensive belts, the houses I have seen in the US are sooooooooo much bigger.

In what we call “fly-over country.”

What does that mean?

Anyway, all of this is to say that I actually don’t think finances are the main issue. I feel the poster’s husband has emotional and communication issues he needs to work on. I sympathise deeply with his idea that sex is the ultimate communication, as I feel the same. However, as an adult I realise that sulking and shutting my spouse out because we can’t have sex is not the way to deal with things.

If he could cut back his hrs and travel time, it would certainly help. However, they wouldn’t be able to pay for their house then and it doesn’t sound like it’s an immodest place. I hate to sound cynical, but the only way he could cut back his hrs and still survive would be if they both left their jobs and were both unemployed. They would then be entitled to mortgage interest relief, jobseekers allowance, free prescriptions and all sorts of grants. Sad but true.

 

[Xantippe]

Galbin said:

“Everyone who comes to my house talks about how big is it, being just over 1500 sq ft. Whereas aside from the expensive belts, the houses I have seen in the US are sooooooooo much bigger.”

I grew up in a house that size in the US, but our current one in Texas is nearly 2X that. Texans loooove big houses. I never thought I’d go for that, but one gets used to it.

It’s easier to have a bigger family when you don’t have to be with them all the time.

“Fly-over country” means the vast bulk of the US that some people’s only contact with is flying over when they are going back and forth between the East and the West Coast. It’s somewhat insulting.

“I sympathise deeply with his idea that sex is the ultimate communication, as I feel the same. However, as an adult I realise that sulking and shutting my spouse out because we can’t have sex is not the way to deal with things.”

It seems all too common a response.

 

[faithsmind]

Hi.
I re-read your post and it did strike a deep chord in me. I did identify with so much that you said. I shed a few tears

I don’t know. Maybe I’m not ready to face such harsh realities. I am trying to get myself well and I have spent the past 13 years building an independent life. So independent I wonder why I’m still married. This was why I struggled initially to take in what you were saying. He doesn’t control me. He’s not here most of the time so he doesn’t get the opportunity. I’ve been seeing a counsellor for the past 4 months and I believe I am making progress.

The only thing part of my 4 post story that I haven’t shared with my counsellor is the bit about our sex life. Why? Because I know that it is highly likely that she will counsel me away from Church teaching. That’s why I came here. I wanted to hear from others who already understood that aspect so wouldn’t jump on the easy bandwagon. That’s all.

All the rest was to illustrate the particular circumstances we are living with in order to avoid getting tangentially onto NFP etc. It happened anyway.

Then came the replies about emotional abuse. I’m not shrugging off your comments or insights. It just had never occured to me previously to view my husband in this way. I’m listening and discerning. Thanks for taking the time to read my story and to post.

God bless
L

Oh Lilli! My heart goes out to you…

Hugs

 

[bitterhope]

I’m from the US too, but I think that 1500 sq ft is pretty big. Our house is 1400 sq ft and we are a family of 10 currently. It’s about the same size house we always end up in regardless of where we live. Our biggest house was 1850 sq ft and the smallest was (when we had 4 kids) 900 sq ft–both in the US. I think it’s all about perspective and what you grow accustomed to. I remember moving from the 900 sq ft home into a 1300 sq ft home and feeling like our house was empty! Moving from the 1850 sq ft home into a 1600 sq ft home felt cramped. We rent, but no matter where we are we find housing under $900 a month. For us moving so much, smaller houses are ideal because it helps us to not accumulate too much stuff. If we were more stationary most likely stay with this size house and add some land, but currently it’s not an option. When we have been overseas our housing was the same size as we have here, but we haven’t been to the UK except to visit. If downsizing isn’t an option is it possible to cut costs in other areas, such as public transit instead of driving or working from home to cut down on child care?

My husband gets an overseas pay allowance when we live outside the continental states so I’m still able to stay home instead of work. I know I’m blessed with that, but we still live way bellow the poverty level regardless of where we are. We find lots of short cuts and ways to save a few cents that add up to dollars and we have never received any type of public assistance. We actually save money with me being home since I don’t need to pay child care and transportation is less since I don’t need to travel every day. We are able to pass clothes and shoes down. It’s possible to grow a garden in pots and supply a family of 5 with plenty of vegetables and since it is in pots, you don’t need yard space. One if our houses we had the garden on our balcony (high rise apt) so it can work nearly everywhere. It is possible to find the way to provide for a family but you may need to sacrifice some if the things you want. I’m only saying this because the OP seems to want to find a way for her husband to make a career shift, but that could result in less money. If money is the big worry, work hard to find a solution instead of damaging the family unit. When one or both of the spouses is as unhappy as the OP has been, it is time to make a change. Families should never allow finances to take precedent over emotional needs. Many times when it appears that all will be list, it’s really an opportunity to learn a better way.

 

[Mr_Clean]

OP, sounds like you’ve got some serious “life” going on. I think you’ve gotten some good advice so far. The only obvious thing is a change is necessary - what needs to change is tough to answer.

My own personal marriage advice is to marry wisely. If you mess that part up its like buying an old house that looked nice on the outside but you spend eternity fixing the inside. So, you have a family with a man that does not satisfy some important needs. No doubt we all get let down by those closest to us. Apparently your own personal struggles exasperate the poor conditions you have illuminated. So, what to do? Right?

I don’t know but God does. Jesus taught us some great wisdom. My personal fave is God first, others second, me last. You and your husband are both guilty of getting it backwards - I do too and so does 99% of us here. If you follow the law as given by our Lord you won’t fail. Suffer? You bet ya. Paradise comes after. Quit worrying about tomorrow, tomorrow will take care of itself.

Just as a side note - your hubby has the skill level to live off the grid. If its important to him to be what God wills all of us to be then he can do it. Like I said its gonna require change. Maybe it will take years but that’s life. And don’t let him treat you like a piece of wood for Pete’s sake.

Good luck and God bless.

 

[NFPWife]

You can also listen to Dave Ramsey online - www.daveramsey.com and then click through to listen. He’s also available through the iHeart radio app. You’ll learn lots of new idioms! (Keep in mind we don’t all sound like that )

I have one other resource for you, this one is a communication resource that might appeal to your husband as it offers clear directives on what to do and what not to do. Dr. John Gottman has done extensive research on not only what doesn’t work in marriages, but what does. This home study course combines Gottman tools with Catholic principles gottman.com/shop/partners-on-the-journey/

If the addition of the Catholic perspective would be off-putting, you can find loads of Gottman books on Amazon. Also, your husband could drill down and read the research. He might even prefer that. Whatever way you review the info, it’s research based and offers practical tips.

I have one, rather random, question - I’m curious as to how docs have prescribed meds for your depression without your having access to CBT. I thought the clinical protocol for the National Health was to do a course of CBT before medications could be prescribed?

 

[faithsmind]

Great posts to Mr Clean and NFPWife-

The problem seems to be that your husband is pretty ok with his life. But you are the one who has been miserable and desperate in the relationship for years. This puts you at his beck and call.

It’s time for you to get some courage and start drawing some lines, girlfriend. It’s time for you to stop hiding your anger, because it is absolutely justified! It’s time to start laying down the law, this has gone WAY too far. Just to start, he needs to get his rear into counseling with you. I would ask the church’s counselor for other recommendations and\or interview counselors to see if they are capable of respecting your religious views. I found a very good one this way.

No one should be treated the way he treats you; like firewood. NFP is not bringing you guys together because you are approaching your entire relationship with the wrong philosophy–you’ve let him dictate a utilitarian approach that is very harmful. It’s time you get some courage and go to battle–hold him to his vows and uncover the hard truths of what this relationship really is. Words will not work. Actions will. My past rec was to say no to sex in order to wake this guy up. I realize you are desperate and it’s the only way you are able to feel close to him (I’ve been there, too), but you and I know this is a facade–one that is working against you, in fact. You are holding all the cards, and both of you have no idea.

 

[Galbin]

I’m from the US too, but I think that 1500 sq ft is pretty big. Our house is 1400 sq ft and we are a family of 10 currently. It’s about the same size house we always end up in regardless of where we live. Our biggest house was 1850 sq ft and the smallest was (when we had 4 kids) 900 sq ft–both in the US. I think it’s all about perspective and what you grow accustomed to. I remember moving from the 900 sq ft home into a 1300 sq ft home and feeling like our house was empty! Moving from the 1850 sq ft home into a 1600 sq ft home felt cramped.

It’s possible to grow a garden in pots and supply a family of 5 with plenty of vegetables and since it is in pots, you don’t need yard space. One if our houses we had the garden on our balcony (high rise apt) so it can work nearly everywhere. It is possible to find the way to provide for a family but you may need to sacrifice some if the things you want. I’m only saying this because the OP seems to want to find a way for her husband to make a career shift, but that could result in less money. If money is the big worry, work hard to find a solution instead of damaging the family unit. When one or both of the spouses is as unhappy as the OP has been, it is time to make a change. Families should never allow finances to take precedent over emotional needs. Many times when it appears that all will be list, it’s really an opportunity to learn a better way.

Just to clarify, our house is considered big here at 1500 sq ft. It’s much bigger than most houses in town. It was built decades ago when houses were bigger, and we lucked out with buying when houses hit rock bottom after the economic crash here. Modern houses are smaller for sure though.

It sounds like you are very good at budgeting and working hard to keep things good for the family.

 

[bitterhope]

Just to clarify, our house is considered big here at 1500 sq ft. It’s much bigger than most houses in town. It was built decades ago when houses were bigger, and we lucked out with buying when houses hit rock bottom after the economic crash here. Modern houses are smaller for sure though.

It sounds like you are very good at budgeting and working hard to keep things good for the family.

Yes, I realize that. But my point was that you don’t need a huge home to have a big family. And also that not all Americans have huge houses. Actually, in many communities none of the houses except for the very rich are larger than 1400 sq ft and 3 bedrooms, maybe 4. We move a lot and many communities we’ve been in have no hosing at all larger than that. In recent years houses have been getting larger and families have been getting smaller in the US. Some areas of the country tend to have larger homes, especially newer homes, but there are still many areas in the US that most people would consider a 1500 sq ft house big too.

My grandmother used to tease my dad when he complained about our house being too crowded because we were a big family too. She had 16 kids, my parents “only” had 11. The house she raised my dad and and the rest in was smaller than my parents house. She told dad, “Of course you can make them fit. You just need to learn how to stack them.” In all seriousness though, it really isn’t that hard. I’m not great at budgeting or anything like that. The advantage I have is we never have enough money around to figure out what to do with. I’ve gotten to the point that I’ve noticed it’s harder for middle income families because there is a definite lifestyle they are expected to maintain without the finances to sustain it. Those of us with limited means can’t get loans or credit cards, and we only get to buy what we have money for. At times this makes it hard, but in more ways it is helpful. My family has no desire to have other people pay for our kids, so you find ways to stretch every penny. No one expects us to have cable tv, nice cars, each kid with a cell phone, brand name anything, etc. so we don’t have the societal pressure to provide those things for our family. My kids LOVE to eat. Food is our largest expense! The only way to cut down on that and be able to afford it is to have a container garden. Since we rent and often don’t have a yard, we can’t plant a real garden. In containers you can grow so many vegetables, and it has the added bonus of keeping the kids busy with something constructive.

Like I said, I’m no budget expert. I honestly believe the middle class has it harder than any other group. The very rich have the financial ability to sustain their lifestyle with no debt and still have adequate savings. Those of us below the poverty level are used to going without and no one expects us to have more than we do, or they are able to receive assistance and provide more than those of us that refuse it (which is a large amount of the working poor. Many of us exist.) But the middle class is pressured to live the lifestyle of the very rich and it causes so much strife in a marriage. If a couple is fearing poverty and therefore they allow their family to fall apart due to a job situation, it’s time to reevaluate what is really important in life. Poverty is not worse for children than a broken home, and probably if a person has a college degree they are not truly going to end up in true poverty. I can tell you, my kids have no idea that we are poor–because we don’t consider ourselves to be poor. Parents set the tone for the family, especially the mom. If the mom is happy, the whole family is happy. If mom is stressed, the whole family is stressed. If mom is falling apart, the family crumbles as well. We are the heart of the home whether we want to be or not. My oldest kids sometimes complain that their friends have cell phones or iPods or whatever and they will say they wish we were rich. I remind them that we have internet and air conditioning so we are better off than at least half the people on earth. Since we do move so much they have seen that what I tell them is true. It is so much more about attitude and perspective than most people think.

 

[Xantippe]

It depends a lot on age of housing stock. I guess in 1950, the average new US home was nearly 1,000 square feet. In 1970, it was 1500 square feet, in 1990 it was nearly 2100 and in 2004, it was about 2,350. The funny thing is, the yards have been shrinking while the houses have been growing.

npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5525283

I grew up in a 1500 square foot house built in the 1980s. It felt huge to me as a kid when there was practically nothing in it, but my parents have since packed it full of stuff, so it feels smaller with just them living in it than it did when there was a growing family in residence. I expect a lot of Americans have experienced the same phenomenon.

I have to say, I’m really enjoying a bigger house–this is our first year and it’s been great. I have a couple of friends with small homes, and our house is the designated playdate area (we turned the formal dining into a gated toddler playroom). We’ll probably also start doing potlucks in the fall.

bitterhope said:

“I honestly believe the middle class has it harder than any other group. The very rich have the financial ability to sustain their lifestyle with no debt and still have adequate savings. Those of us below the poverty level are used to going without and no one expects us to have more than we do, or they are able to receive assistance and provide more than those of us that refuse it (which is a large amount of the working poor. Many of us exist.) But the middle class is pressured to live the lifestyle of the very rich and it causes so much strife in a marriage.”

That’s pretty much it.

There was this story in the Washington Post a few days ago:

washingtonpost.com/local/happy-days-no-more-middle-class-families-squeezed-as-expenses-soar-wages-stall/2014/04/26/f4a857f0-7a47-11e3-b1c5-739e63e9c9a7_story.html

This couple actually has a reasonable income for their area ($90k in rural Virginia) it’s just that they don’t have a clue what kind of lifestyle that can actually cover for a blended family of five (mom and dad and three kids).

 

[bitterhope]

Yeah, $90k is a lot of money for most people I know in the US. It is about 3 times what we make, no joke. That is why it is so hard for many of us to understand why it’s so difficult to make ends meet. I think a lot of families would benefit from simplifying their lives. So many things people think are necessary really aren’t. I in no way find it wrong to have unneeded things, our family has them. The problem lies in placing the importance of money and items over the emotional stability of your spouse and children. And when the neglected spouse fears losing a specific lifestyle and begins to feel trapped because if the lifestyle is gone then they have nothing, so they keep going in a miserable marriage that doesn’t improve because no one wants to lose the stuff…it gets dizzying going in circles like that!

My husband is gone a lot. He’s home more now, but he can still tell me at noon he’s leaving for six weeks and be gone by 6 pm. This life works for our family because we make sure to stay connected emotionally. We decided a long time ago that the minute one if us felt stressed, long before we feel trapped, that we would step back and readjust our lives. His job is probably the best thing we can ever have financially, but we would find the way to make it work on even less if either one of us felt we could no longer be happy doing this. I realize the biggest advantage I have is that no one would ever expect us to “do better” than we are, or would in the future. If societal pressures are making people feel like they must have a particular school, amount of savings, type of car, brand of clothes, or anything else, perhaps it means families should stop caring what others think and instead become a united, emotionally secure couple and an example to society of what a beautiful marriage really looks like.

I really hope I’m making myself clear and not coming across as thinking I’m better than everybody else. I know I’m just a sinner and I’m struggling through this world too. I’ve seen too many families break up because of finances and/or emotional neglect. I’ve seen how much the kids suffer in these families–and many of the families haven’t divorced, just been miserable. It hurts my heart for families that allow the world to break them, because usually before they realize how bad it has become, they are broken beyond repair. Out of the 11 kids in my family, exactly 3 of us can be considered happily (most of the time) married. The rest are either divorced or honestly should be as bad as they are to each other. The families we are around are mostly unhappy or married to their 2nd, 3rd, or more spouse. Almost always the problems arise from money or a fear of losing a standard of living. Almost all consist of one spouse or both of them feeling trapped, neglected, or worse. I pray daily to the Holy Family for families everywhere, especially ones in turmoil. I really hope everyone here can find the way to be happy without running themselves into the ground trying to keep up with the Joneses.