Unhealthy piety?

[Monica4316]

I came across this in another thread… what is an unhealthy piety?

Some might mean the extent, but then wouldn’t lots of religious and Saints be in this category? So it can’t be that?? Is it the type of piety perhaps or how it’s done?

Examples I can think of would be missing your duties because of what you’re doing etc. Also if it’s out of pride or against direction of a priest.

How do you know if your piety is healthy or not? I am planning to ask my SD about this… But does anyone know?

Its just a topic I’m finding confusing. For example I have a book about St Mary Magdalene and it says there all she thought about was Jesus and she would constantly follow Him around… people mocked her for this but He saw it as love. Then she lived in a cave as a contemplative. Again people would think against it as it’s not the norm but it wasn’t unhealthy piety for her, because she was humble and loved God and did His will… it makes me think if you’re doing something out of love and your director approves is that safe then? I don’t mean living in caves necessary it could just be doing more than required. Like how much you go to Adoration. There were Saints who spent hours in Adoration…so how do you know if you’re right in a certain thing you’re doing for God?
Any thoughts??

 

[PacificNorthwes]

I’m sure there’s no official description but unhealthy piety can be recognized when you see it. Examples of unhealthy piety:
-Your child comes home from school and is hungry but you make them wait because you HAVE to say certain prayers at 3 o’clock every day no exception for any reason.
-Your church has an all evening devotion like for First Friday that lasts for several hours until late in the evening and you drag your very young children there and make all of you stay for the whole thing regardless of the fact that they are very tired and need to sleep.
-You have so many devotions and prayers during the day that you can’t complete your daily tasks or socialize with family and friends (and you are a lay person, not in a religious order).

One of the keys here is flexibility - if there is no flexibility in what you are doing, it’s unhealthy.

 

[pianistclare]

Just keep in mind:

There is nothing you can do to make Jesus love you more, and
there is nothing you can do to make Him love you less.

So do what you do for the right reasons.

 

[CB_Catholic]

A definition of “unhealthy piety” might be the old adage: " So heavenly minded that they are of no earthly good".

 

[PelagiathePenit]

I came across this in another thread… what is an unhealthy piety?

Some might mean the extent, but then wouldn’t lots of religious and Saints be in this category? So it can’t be that?? Is it the type of piety perhaps or how it’s done?

Examples I can think of would be missing your duties because of what you’re doing etc. Also if it’s out of pride or against direction of a priest.

How do you know if your piety is healthy or not? I am planning to ask my SD about this… But does anyone know?

Its just a topic I’m finding confusing. For example I have a book about St Mary Magdalene and it says there all she thought about was Jesus and she would constantly follow Him around… people mocked her for this but He saw it as love. Then she lived in a cave as a contemplative. Again people would think against it as it’s not the norm but it wasn’t unhealthy piety for her, because she was humble and loved God and did His will… it makes me think if you’re doing something out of love and your director approves is that safe then? I don’t mean living in caves necessary it could just be doing more than required. Like how much you go to Adoration. There were Saints who spent hours in Adoration…so how do you know if you’re right in a certain thing you’re doing for God?
Any thoughts??

I think St. Rose of Lima sought the counsel of her spiritual director for her pious, ascetic practices. I think you should pray and seek the counsel of priest before you do anything particularly drastic. Consider your health as well. Not all of us can fast. Consider your lifestyle as well.

 

[Joe_5859]

Just keep in mind:

There is nothing you can do to make Jesus love you more, and
there is nothing you can do to make Him love you less.

So do what you do for the right reasons.

Nicely put.

If someone is doing a bunch of prayers because they feel they need to do so to earn God’s love. Or because they feel that if they leave off a single devotion they will anger God and be condemned to hell, then that would be an unhealthy piety.

It is good you plan to address this in spiritual direction. Spiritual directors are there to make sure that we don’t veer off in this direction if it would otherwise be our tendency to do so.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I’m sure there’s no official description but unhealthy piety can be recognized when you see it. Examples of unhealthy piety:
-Your child comes home from school and is hungry but you make them wait because you HAVE to say certain prayers at 3 o’clock every day no exception for any reason.
-Your church has an all evening devotion like for First Friday that lasts for several hours until late in the evening and you drag your very young children there and make all of you stay for the whole thing regardless of the fact that they are very tired and need to sleep.
-You have so many devotions and prayers during the day that you can’t complete your daily tasks or socialize with family and friends (and you are a lay person, not in a religious order).

One of the keys here is flexibility - if there is no flexibility in what you are doing, it’s unhealthy.

The first one made me think of another: imposing one’s piety onto those they have authority over. For example, fasting. The Church has specific rules about who has to fast and who does not. Even if fasting won’t harm a child under 18, it won’t benefit him either, unless he is disposed to it. Even worse if a parent adopts even stricter fasting practices and imposes it on the whole family.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

The first one made me think of another: imposing one’s piety onto those they have authority over. For example, fasting. The Church has specific rules about who has to fast and who does not. Even if fasting won’t harm a child under 18, it won’t benefit him either, unless he is disposed to it. Even worse if a parent adopts even stricter fasting practices and imposes it on the whole family.

The Catholic Church has rules about this too. The height of holiness seems impossible. I hope heaven is truly worth it.

 

[Monica4316]

Thanks to all the replies! I think I understand it better now, that makes sense that’s good there’s spiritual direction!

 

[Monica4316]

A definition of “unhealthy piety” might be the old adage: " So heavenly minded that they are of no earthly good".

I am trying to understand this… i think it can be bad if piety prevents from duties or makes us uncharitable… But there are times when God wants someone to devote themselves to a life of contemplation… Or when we have to choose God first in something… how do we tell the difference? I fully agree that a contemplative person would be charitable as well

 

[DBT]

I am trying to understand this… i think it can be bad if piety prevents from duties or makes us uncharitable… But there are times when God wants someone to devote themselves to a life of contemplation… Or when we have to choose God first in something… how do we tell the difference? I fully agree that a contemplative person would be charitable as well

The duties of our state in life is how we know. I’m married and a father of four. Also a business owner responsible for 20 employees. And a Secular Carmelite as well. Whenever there’s a conflict between my duties as husband/father/employeer and my Carmelite obligations … Carmel will temporarily take the backseat. If those conflicts ever became persistent, then a leave of absence would likely be order until life balances can be restored.

As a formation director and councilor, one of the surest ways to recognize unhealthy piety in a prospective member is when they think they’re supposed to act like little monks or nuns. That’s not our calling for the simple reason that our primary vocation would suffer. These priorities are codified in our Constitutions and statutes.

And while this all pertains to Seculars of our Order, the basic principal of the primacy of our duties can apply to other laypersons as well. In that, these forums can be quite instructive … for there are all sorts of examples on unhealthy piety and distorted devotional practices here if one reads from that prism.

Hope this helps,

Dave

 

[pianistclare]

The duties of our state in life is how we know. I’m married and a father of four. Also a business owner responsible for 20 employees. And a Secular Carmelite as well. Whenever there’s a conflict between my duties as husband/father/employeer and my Carmelite obligations … Carmel will temporarily take the backseat. If those conflicts ever became persistent, then a leave of absence would likely be order until life balances can be restored.

As a formation director and councilor, one of the surest ways to recognize unhealthy piety in a prospective member is when they think they’re supposed to act like little monks or nuns. That’s not our calling for the simply reason that our primary vocation would suffer. These priorities are codified in our Constitutions and statutes.

And while this all pertains to Seculars of our Order, the basic principal of the primacy of our duties can apply to other laypersons as well. In that, these forums can be quite instructive … for there are all sorts of examples on unhealthy piety and distorted devotional practices here if one reads from that prism.

Hope this helps,

Dave

:clapping:

 

[EIF5A]

In that, these forums can be quite instructive … for there are all sorts of examples on unhealthy piety and distorted devotional practices here if one reads from that prism.

Could you provide a hypothetical example of a distorted devotional practice?

 

[pianistclare]

I don’t know about DBT, but there was a woman in our parish who would lay face down on the carpet in the CENTER AISLE at the conclusion of Sunday Mass.

She was convinced that God wanted this, and that it was fine if people didn’t see her and tripped over her. People nor wheelchairs could pass.
Father had to tell her that prostration was a posture reserved for the clergy on certain occasions, but that she could do so in an inconspicuous spot at Adoration. Space permitting. But that wasn’t good enough.

She did many things that were clearly a way to call attention to herself.

Like the 5 page angry emails she would send to everyone on staff.
Like the time she demanded we buy projectors for powerpoints to show at Adoration and then yelled that they were inappropriate. What? Those were your idea lady, and we never let you do it in the first place.

She never ever went to EMHC training, but would walk up to the altar at EVERY Mass wanting to distribute communion, and frequently attended every Mass on the weekend.

But if you spoke to her, she was greatly maligned by everyone.

She would sit in the pews and sob if someone said anything to her.
The Bishop’s office finally sent someone to speak to her.

 

[e_c]

Taking on so much or disciplines of a certain kind that you are neglecting duties, are likely to hurt yourself physically, are likely to draw too much attention to yourself, are likely to get bitter, are likely wasting time, are likely causing scandal, are being disobedient, are looking for consolation, or are likely to despair.

 

[EIF5A]

I don’t know about DBT, but there was a woman in our parish who would lay face down on the carpet in the CENTER AISLE at the conclusion of Sunday Mass.

yikes…that’s just awkward

I hope she got her spirituality sorted out in a healthy manner…

 

[pianistclare]

yikes…that’s just awkward

I hope she got her spirituality sorted out in a healthy manner…

Nope. She just took the matter to another parish where they are now tearing their hair out over her.
Sad.
Shes clearly got problems.

 

[DBT]

Could you provide a hypothetical example of a distorted devotional practice?

How about a real-life example?

We had a young mother request to join our community. For several months all seemed to be going along just fine. Then one day she told a story to the entire community. It seems her young daughter, aged about 9, took her life savings and bought her mom a little purse for Christmas. She did this all on her own initiative out of the goodness of her little heart.

The mom, though, was quite horrified by it all and said “Oh no, no, no don’t be so materialistic! All I want is for you to pray for me!” She made the daughter return the purse.

At this, about 30 Carmelites simultaneously fell out of their chairs with a loud thump. And I thought our priest was going to have a stroke. We gently pulled her aside after the meeting and asked her if she considered the charity that guided her daughters action and that maybe, just maybe, the charitable thing on her part would have been to simply accept the gift and give her daughter a great big hug. She, of course, did not see it that way at all.

Upon further probing and discernment lasting several more months it became quite clear that this young mother had very unrealistic, pietistic expectations of her children that we didn’t recognize in our initial conversations with her. In short, she didn’t know how to let her kids be kids. It’s certainly laudable to teach our kids to pray … but they need to play and goof around too. It was then we discerned this individual did not have a vocation … and was probably more than a little harmful to her family too.

---

Bringing this on a more personal level: when my kids were younger, I had a simple little rule for myself. Whenever I found myself wanting to sneak upstairs to pray the Liturgy of the Hours or do my mental prayer – but my kids were downstairs doing homework or outside playing catch - then I’d see this seemingly holy desire for solitude and prayer as nothing more than a temptation. Take care of business and family matters first, then “go alone into my room and pray.” It’s amazing that nearly 100% of the time I approached matters from that perspective, God gave me time for all of it. Moral of the story: just because we have holy desires doesn’t mean they’re properly ordered. In fact, our greatest imperfections are often spiritual in nature.

Dave

 

[Bruised_Reed]

How about a real-life example?

We had a young mother request to join our community. For several months all seemed to be going along just fine. Then one day she told a story to the entire community. It seems her young daughter, aged about 9, took her life savings and bought her mom a little purse for Christmas. She did this all on her own initiative out of the goodness of her little heart.

The mom, though, was quite horrified by it all and said “Oh no, no, no don’t be so materialistic! All I want is for you to pray for me!” She made the daughter return the purse.

At this, about 30 Carmelites simultaneously fell out of their chairs with a loud thump. And I thought our priest was going to have a stroke. We gently pulled her aside after the meeting and asked her if she considered the charity that guided her daughters action and that maybe, just maybe, the charitable thing on her part would have been to simply accept the gift and give her daughter a great big hug. She, of course, did not see it that way at all.

Upon further probing and discernment lasting several more months it became quite clear that this young mother had very unrealistic, pietistic expectations of her children that we didn’t recognize in our initial conversations with her. In short, she didn’t know how to let her kids be kids. It’s certainly laudable to teach our kids to pray … but they need to play and goof around too. It was then we discerned this individual did not have a vocation … and was probably more than a little harmful to her family too.

---

Bringing this on a more personal level: when my kids were younger, I had a simple little rule for myself. Whenever I found myself wanting to sneak upstairs to pray the Liturgy of the Hours or do my mental prayer – but my kids were downstairs doing homework or outside playing catch - then I’d see this seemingly holy desire for solitude and prayer as nothing more than a temptation. Take care of business and family matters first, then “go alone into my room and pray.” It’s amazing that nearly 100% of the time I approached matters from that perspective, God gave me time for all of it. Moral of the story: just because we have holy desires doesn’t mean they’re properly ordered. In fact, our greatest imperfections are often spiritual in nature.

Dave

Yikes. That’s a good example though.

 

[animalis]

It would help to clarify yourself with the classical terms of the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit. As well as the virtues, theological and cardinal. Piety is a gift. Keep in mind Saint Bonaventure will explain terms one way, and Saint Thomas Aquinas (both of the same historical period) another way. And to make the matter more complex, piety is also a virtue - under the cardinal virtue of justice. The point I am making here is - if you make the right distinctions of ideas and actions - you draw better conclusions, yet still with mystery.

As for the practices of the ascetics - are they seen as unhealthy? I would say no. Because the Church in her first 1000 years is abundant with saints of that path. We cannot turn our back to these practices, because of absurd conclusions that we have a better revelation from science concerning health. Be very careful of spiritual guides, who these days stifle the Spirit in that respect. Today, the eastern churches under Rome have a greater respect for these figures.