Unitarians?

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Ahimsa:
The Buddha’s teachings aren’t beyond the reach of English, but it’ll take some time, in my opinion, to develop a language that incorporates the nuances of the Buddha’s teachings.

If by “self-hood” you mean the process of clinging-to-aggregates, then yes, dukkha is not only related to self-hood, dukkha is self-hood.

My point is that one can still live as a body-mind, a human being, a person, a “self” (defined as a body-mind, not defined as clinging-to-aggregates), while living free of dukkha. The use of the term “self-hood” implies that nibbana necessarily involves a loss of “self”, a word in English that carries so many conno- and denotations, including “a sense of wholness”, “a sense of dignity,” etc, which is definitely not the case.
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Ahimsa:
The Buddha’s teachings aren’t beyond the reach of English, but it’ll take some time, in my opinion, to develop a language that incorporates the nuances of the Buddha’s teachings.
If by “self-hood” you mean the process of clinging-to-aggregates, then yes, dukkha is not only related to self-hood, dukkha is self-hood.

In nomine Jesu I offer you peace,

Yes, this is how I understand it.
My point is that one can still live as a body-mind, a human being, a person, a “self” (defined as a body-mind, not defined as clinging-to-aggregates), while living free of dukkha. The use of the term “self-hood” implies that nibbana necessarily involves a loss of “self”, a word in English that carries so many conno- and denotations, including “a sense of wholness”, “a sense of dignity,” etc, which is definitely not the case.
These are all dualistic notions that the Buddha would dismiss are illusions of the five-aggregates. Once “all” notions of the self are transcended will one reach enlightenment and then only partially until one passes from this life. I can supply quotes from Buddha to explain this if you’d like.

Peace, Love and Blessings,
 
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chrisb:
In nomine Jesu I offer you peace Ahimsa,

Let me say that The First Noble Truth (Dukkha-ariyasacca) is generally translated by almost all Western Scholars as ‘The Noble Truth of Suffering’, and it is interpreted to mean that life according to Buddhism is nothing but suffering and pain. Both translation and interpretation are highly unsatisfactory and misleading in my oppinion.

It is true that the Pali word dukkha (or Sanskrit Duhkha) in ordinary usage means ‘suffering’, ‘pain’, ‘sorrow’ or ‘misery’, as opposed to the word sukha meaning ‘happiness’, ‘comfort’, or ‘ease’. But the term dukkha as the First Noble Truth, which represents the Buddha’s view of life and the world, has a deeper philosophical meaning and connotes enormously wider senses. It is admitted that the term dukkha in the First Noble Truth contains, quite obviously, the ordinary meaning of ‘suffering’, but in addition it also includes deeper ideas such as ‘imperfection’, ‘impermanence’, ‘emptiness’, i’nsubstantiality’. It is difficult therefore to find one word to embrace the whole conception of the term dukkha as the First Noble Truth, and so it is better to leave it untarnslated, than to give an inadequate and wrong idea of it by conveniently translating it as ‘suffering’ or ‘pain’.

The conception of dukkha may be viewed from three aspects:

1.) dukkha as ordinary suffering (dukkha-dukkha)

2.) dukkha as produced by change (viparinama-dukkha)

3.) dukkha as conditional states (samkhara-dukkha)

All kinds of suffering in life like birth, old age, sickness, death, association with unpleasant persons and conditions, separation from beloved ones and pleasant conditions, not getting what one desires, grief, lamentation, distress - all such forms of physical and mental suffering, which are universally accepted as suffering or pain, are included in dukkha as ordinary suffering (dukkha-dukkha).

A happy feeling, a happy condition in life, is not permanent, not everlasting. It changes sooner or later. When it changes, it produces pain, suffering, unhappiness. This vicissitude is included in dukkha as suffering produced by change (viparinama-dukkha).

It is easy to understand the two forms of suffering (dukkha) mentioned above and both you and Ahimsaman72 have voiced them very well but you are missing the conditional state which is being-hood (i.e. self-hood). No one will dispute them. This aspect of the First Noble Truth is popularly known because it is easy to understand. It is common experience in our daily life.

The third form of dukkha as conditional states (samkhara-dukkha) is the most important philosophical aspect of the First Noble Truth, and it requires some analytical explanation of what we consider as a ‘being’, or an ‘individual’, or ‘I’.

What we call a ‘being’, or an ‘individual’, or ‘I’, according to Buddhist philosophy, is only a combination of ever-changing physical and mental forces or energies, which may be divided into five groups or aggregates (pancakkhandha). The Buddha says: “in short these five aggregates of attachment are dukkha.” (Samkhittena pncupadanakkhandha dukkha p. 421). Elsewhere he distinctly defines dukkha as the five aggregates: "O bhikkhus, what is dukkha? It should be said that it is the five aggregates of attachment (p. 158). Here it should be clearly understood tht dukkha and the five aggregates are not two different things; the five aggregates themselves are dukkha. We will understand this point better when we have some notion of the five aggregates which constitute the so-called ‘being’. Now, we can get into that by I think if we do we should create a whole new thread.

Peace, Love and Blessings,
This was very good - GKB. I’ve not seen those quotes from the Buddha and I’ve not seen dukkha explained as you have explained above. The various sources I have seen (which are general and basic understandings) don’t connect dukkha and the five aggregates as the same thing - so this is new to me. I see your points and you have some definite insight and knowledge. Thank you for sharing this.

Peace…
 
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ahimsaman72:
This was very good - GKB. I’ve not seen those quotes from the Buddha and I’ve not seen dukkha explained as you have explained above. The various sources I have seen (which are general and basic understandings) don’t connect dukkha and the five aggregates as the same thing - so this is new to me. I see your points and you have some definite insight and knowledge. Thank you for sharing this.

Peace…
In nomine Jesu I offer you peace ahimsaman72,

Thank you for the kudos. I studied Hindusim, Taoism and Buddhism in Collage but that was some time ago and I finally broke out my notes because I’m really rusty on my this subject. I recall we used the works of Walpola Sri Rahula. I highly recommend his works.

Peace, Love and Blessings,
 
I found this amazing website which parallels Christianity and Buddhism and has charts that show what I was speaking of when comparing sects of Christianity with schools/sects of Buddhism. Very well put together site.

frimmin.com/faith/lotuscross.html
Peace and blessings…
 
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ahimsaman72:
I found this amazing website which parallels Christianity and Buddhism and has charts that show what I was speaking of when comparing sects of Christianity with schools/sects of Buddhism. Very well put together site.
Parallels and similarities, interesting though they are, eventually run up against the fact that pantheism and theism are incompatible, unless someone betrays their beliefs.

The thread has followed an interesting path, but Unitarians still aren’t Christians. Neither are Buddhists or Hindus.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
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ahimsaman72:
I found this amazing website which parallels Christianity and Buddhism and has charts that show what I was speaking of when comparing sects of Christianity with schools/sects of Buddhism. Very well put together site.

frimmin.com/faith/lotuscross.html
Peace and blessings…
In nomine Jesu ahimsaman72,

Yes, I remember I did a paper in Collage on this very theme. I have great respect and affection for Buddhists and Buddhism in general, although I am more well versed in Hinduism and think that the parallels are doctrinally much more evident but regardless, this site is very impressive.

Eventhough Buddhism is a refinement of Hindu Metaphysics and Practices it’s difficult to avoid the direct refutation of God by the Buddha. The Buddha taught that there was “no” Atman and thus no ultimate source of “self” outside what we experience through the five-aggregates. It’s terribly difficult to accept for most Westerners who tend to be extremely attached to this notion of “self” but I understand you point and the point of this website. I feel that Buddhism has “softened” from the original teachings of the Buddha to embrace the conditional states as, in a sense, okay but I must suggest that once you delve into Buddhism deeper you come to vast metaphysical challenges as you attempt to merge the two practices. It is much easier to encorporate Zen Meditative Practices in Christianity and simply discard all Buddhist Philosophy. I think that would be a more honest approach but that is simply my oppinion.

Have you ever read “Christ The Eternal Tao” by Hieromonk Damascene? If not and you like Taoism and Buddhism but are a practicing Christian this is a “must” read.

Peace, Love and Blessings,
 
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chrisb:
In nomine Jesu I offer you peace Ahimsa,

Let me say that The First Noble Truth (Dukkha-ariyasacca) is generally translated by almost all Western Scholars as ‘The Noble Truth of Suffering’, and it is interpreted to mean that life according to Buddhism is nothing but suffering and pain. Both translation and interpretation are highly unsatisfactory and misleading in my oppinion.

It is true that the Pali word dukkha (or Sanskrit Duhkha) in ordinary usage means ‘suffering’, ‘pain’, ‘sorrow’ or ‘misery’, as opposed to the word sukha meaning ‘happiness’, ‘comfort’, or ‘ease’. But the term dukkha as the First Noble Truth, which represents the Buddha’s view of life and the world, has a deeper philosophical meaning and connotes enormously wider senses. It is admitted that the term dukkha in the First Noble Truth contains, quite obviously, the ordinary meaning of ‘suffering’, but in addition it also includes deeper ideas such as ‘imperfection’, ‘impermanence’, ‘emptiness’, i’nsubstantiality’. It is difficult therefore to find one word to embrace the whole conception of the term dukkha as the First Noble Truth, and so it is better to leave it untarnslated, than to give an inadequate and wrong idea of it by conveniently translating it as ‘suffering’ or ‘pain’.

The conception of dukkha may be viewed from three aspects:

1.) dukkha as ordinary suffering (dukkha-dukkha)

2.) dukkha as produced by change (viparinama-dukkha)

3.) dukkha as conditional states (samkhara-dukkha)

All kinds of suffering in life like birth, old age, sickness, death, association with unpleasant persons and conditions, separation from beloved ones and pleasant conditions, not getting what one desires, grief, lamentation, distress - all such forms of physical and mental suffering, which are universally accepted as suffering or pain, are included in dukkha as ordinary suffering (dukkha-dukkha).

A happy feeling, a happy condition in life, is not permanent, not everlasting. It changes sooner or later. When it changes, it produces pain, suffering, unhappiness. This vicissitude is included in dukkha as suffering produced by change (viparinama-dukkha).
I would qualify this last paragraph: changes produce unhappiness if clinging is present. Otherwise, it’s just change.
It is easy to understand the two forms of suffering (dukkha) mentioned above and both you and Ahimsaman72 have voiced them very well but you are missing the conditional state which is being-hood (i.e. self-hood). No one will dispute them. This aspect of the First Noble Truth is popularly known because it is easy to understand. It is common experience in our daily life.

The third form of dukkha as conditional states (samkhara-dukkha) is the most important philosophical aspect of the First Noble Truth, and it requires some analytical explanation of what we consider as a ‘being’, or an ‘individual’, or ‘I’.
Samkhara-dukkha…how do we translate this? The Pali Dictionary (at buddhanet.net) describes the three states of suffering very much as you have given, but slightly differently. The first is dukkha-dukkhata (the state of dukkha due to mental/physical pain). That’s pretty self-explanatory. Second: viparinaama-dukkhata (the state of dukkha due to mental/physical pleasantness – because if we cling to pleasant feelings when they change, then that is dukkha). Third: samkhara-dukkhata, the state of dukkha inherent in all aggregates – inherent because clinging to what continually changes is dukkha.

To equate dukkha with the aggregates (independent of clinging) is, it seems, to imply that the end of dukkha (nibbana) is not possible while living in this human body composed of aggregates.
 
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chrisb:
Eventhough Buddhism is a refinement of Hindu Metaphysics and Practices it’s difficult to avoid the direct refutation of God by the Buddha.
Hi Chris,

To bring the thread back towards Unitarianism, somewhat: I think the Buddha’s position towards an all-knowing and all-powerful God has many similarities to that of Process and Open Theology. One of the criticisms Buddha made was that an all-powerful, all-knowing God who was also all-loving was an implausibility given the suffering in the world. Process and Open theology address that criticism by arguing for an all-loving, but not-all-powerful and not-all-knowing God.
 
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Ahimsa:
I would qualify this last paragraph: changes produce unhappiness if clinging is present. Otherwise, it’s just change.
In nomine Jesu I offer you peace,

If we did not suffer (i.e. experience dukkha) then we would not be caught within the cycle of birth and rebirth. Once we are liberated from dukkha we attain enlightenment (nirvana) and thus cease to exist within the cycle of birth and rebirth which is are present state.

In the Anguttara-nikaya, one of the five original Collections in Pali containing the Buddha’s discourses, there is a list of happinesses (sukhani), such as the happiness of family life and the happiness of the life of a recluse, the happiness of sense pleasures and the happiness of renunciation, the happiness of attachment and the happiness of detachment, physical happiness and mental happiness etc. But all these are included in dukkha. Even the very pure spiritual states of dhyana (recueillement or trance) attained by the practice of higher meditation, free from even a shadow of suffering in the accepted sense of the word, states which may be described as unmixed happiness, as well as the state of dhyana which is free from sensations both pleasant (sukha) and unpleasant (dukkha) and is only pure equanimity and awareness - even the very high spiritual states are included in dukkha. In one of the suttas of the Majjhima-nikaya, (again one of the five original Collections), after praising the spiritual happiness of these dhyanas, the Buddha says that they are ‘impermanent, dukkha, and suject to change’ (annicca dukkha viparinamadhamma) (Mahadukkhakkhandha-sutta p. 90). Notice that the word dukkha is explicitly used. It is dukkha, not because there is ‘suffering’ in the ordinary sense of the word, but because ‘whatever is impermanent is dukkha’ (yad aniccam tam dukkham). So you see, the Buddha taught that there are “three” dukkhas, you appear to only wish to admit two of them because the notion that existence is dukkha is something which you are unwilling to accept as dukkha (-dukkha-samkhara).
Samkhara-dukkha…how do we translate this?
The esteemed Buddhist Monk Walpola Sri Rahula translated Samkhara-dukkha as ‘conditional things and states’. It is a by-product of the “five-aggregates”.
The Pali Dictionary (at buddhanet.net) describes the three states of suffering very much as you have given, but slightly differently. The first is dukkha-dukkhata (the state of dukkha due to mental/physical pain). That’s pretty self-explanatory. Second: viparinaama-dukkhata (the state of dukkha due to mental/physical pleasantness – because if we cling to pleasant feelings when they change, then that is dukkha). Third: samkhara-dukkhata, the state of dukkha inherent in all aggregates – inherent because clinging to what continually changes is dukkha.
I dare to say that you are clinging to the two aspect of dukkha and not embracing the third here. Because we experience birth and rebirth, thus we encounter the five-aggregates and thus we encounter dukkha ‘to some degree’ until we cease to experience birth and rebirth.
To equate dukkha with the aggregates (independent of clinging) is, it seems, to imply that the end of dukkha (nibbana) is not possible while living in this human body composed of aggregates.
Yep, that is the point the Buddha was attempting to suggest.

Peace, Love and Blessings,
 
Gerry Hunter:
Parallels and similarities, interesting though they are, eventually run up against the fact that pantheism and theism are incompatible, unless someone betrays their beliefs.

The thread has followed an interesting path, but Unitarians still aren’t Christians. Neither are Buddhists or Hindus.

Blessings,

Gerry
I don’t believe they are totally incompatible. If you stick to a strict interpretation of both then I can see your point. But, if one keeps an open mind about both, it is possible.

I admit I have gotten off the “unitarian” thread and apologize for unintentionally taken off on this subject. Maybe you will forgive me? 😃

Some unitarians are Christians. And, I will admit that 99 % of Buddhists are not Christians and the same with Hindu’s. Although, I know personally a Hindu man from Nepal who accepted Christ!

We come to a matter of words and meanings when speaking of who is really a Christian. Our definitions would not be the same. I often think back to Solomon who believed in God and followed him, yet followed after other gods - the gods of his many, many wives. Admittedly, his sons tore apart his kingdom, but it is odd that God would allow him to even live his life. God struck down men for less.

Peace…
 
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chrisb:
In nomine Jesu ahimsaman72,

Yes, I remember I did a paper in Collage on this very theme. I have great respect and affection for Buddhists and Buddhism in general, although I am more well versed in Hinduism and think that the parallels are doctrinally much more evident but regardless, this site is very impressive.

Eventhough Buddhism is a refinement of Hindu Metaphysics and Practices it’s difficult to avoid the direct refutation of God by the Buddha. The Buddha taught that there was “no” Atman and thus no ultimate source of “self” outside what we experience through the five-aggregates. It’s terribly difficult to accept for most Westerners who tend to be extremely attached to this notion of “self” but I understand you point and the point of this website. I feel that Buddhism has “softened” from the original teachings of the Buddha to embrace the conditional states as, in a sense, okay but I must suggest that once you delve into Buddhism deeper you come to vast metaphysical challenges as you attempt to merge the two practices. It is much easier to encorporate Zen Meditative Practices in Christianity and simply discard all Buddhist Philosophy. I think that would be a more honest approach but that is simply my oppinion.

Have you ever read “Christ The Eternal Tao” by Hieromonk Damascene? If not and you like Taoism and Buddhism but are a practicing Christian this is a “must” read.

Peace, Love and Blessings,
Hello friend-

Thank you again for your insights. I have practiced koans in zen meditation. It is pretty interesting, indeed.

I have not read that book, but will see if I can find it. Thanks for the info! I have looked briefly at Taoism and appreciate the philosophy. My wife knows a lot about Feng Shui and I find it very insightful. Of course, the philosophy is somewhat different in that Taoism (in my understanding) accepts the concept of duality - good/bad, ying/yang, which are not concepts that seem to work in Buddhist philosophy.

I enjoy Thich Nhat Hanh’s works very much. I plan on getting a couple of his books for Christmas. I have his book, “Going Home: Jesus and Buddha as brothers” and hope to get “Living Buddha, Living Christ”.

Peace and blessings…
 
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Ahimsa:
Hi Chris,

To bring the thread back towards Unitarianism, somewhat: I think the Buddha’s position towards an all-knowing and all-powerful God has many similarities to that of Process and Open Theology. One of the criticisms Buddha made was that an all-powerful, all-knowing God who was also all-loving was an implausibility given the suffering in the world. Process and Open theology address that criticism by arguing for an all-loving, but not-all-powerful and not-all-knowing God.
In nomine Jesu I offer you peace,

Man’s position, according to the teachings of the Buddha, is supreme. Man is his own master, and there is no higher being or power tha tsits in judgement over his destiny.

‘One is one’s own refuge, who else could be the refuge?’ said the Buddha. He admonished his disciples to ‘be a refuge to themselves’, and never to seek refuge in or help from anybody else. He taught, encouraged and stimulated each person to develop himself and to work out his own emancipation, for man has the power to liberate himself from all bondage through his own personal effort and intelligence. The Buddha says: 'You should do your work, for the Tathagatas only teach the way. If the Buddha is to be called a ‘savior’ at all, it is only in the sense that he discovered and showed the Path of Liberation, Nirvana. But we must tread the Path ourselves.

The root of all evil is ignorance (avijja) and false views (miccha ditthi). It is an undeniable fact that as long as thee is doubt, perplexity, wavering, no progress is possible. It is also equally undeniable that there must be doubt as long as one does not understand or see clearly. But in order to progress further it is absolutely necessary to get rid of doubt. To get rid of doubt one has to see clearly.

There is no point in saying that one should ‘not’ doubt or one should ‘believe’. Just to say ‘I believe’ does not mean that you understand or see. When a student works on a methematical problem, he comes to a stage beyond which he does not know how to proceed, and whre he is in doubt and perplexity. As long as he has this doubt, he cannot proceed. If he wants to proceed, he must resolve doubt. And there are ways of resolving that doubt. Just to say ‘I believe’, or ‘I do not doubt’ will certainly not solve the problem. To force oneself to believe and to accept a thing without understanding is political, and not spiritual or intellectual.

Almost all religions are built on faith - rather ‘blind’ faith it would seem. But in Buddhism emphasis is laid on ‘seeing’., knowing, understanding, and not on faith, or belief. In Buddhist texts there is a word saddha which is usually translated as ‘faith’ or ‘belief’. But saddha is not ‘faith’ as such, but rather ‘confidence’ born out of conviction. In popular Buddhism and also in ordinary usage in the texts the word saddha, it must be admitted, has a element of ‘faith’ in the sense that it signifies devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma (Teaching) and the Sangha (The Order).

According to Asanga, the great Buddhist philosopher of the 4th Century AC, sraddha has three aspects:

1.) full and firm conviction that a thing is.

2.) serene joy at good qualities.

3.) aspiration or wish to achieve an object in view.

However you put it, faith or belief as understood by most religions has little to do with Buddhism.

The question of belief arises when there is no seeing - seeing in every sense of the word. The moment you see, the question of belief disappears. A disciple of the Buddha named Musila tells another Monk: 'Friend Savittha, without devotion, faith or belief, without liking or inclination, without hearsay or tradition, without considering apparent reasons, without delight in the speculations of opinion, I know and see that the cessation of becoming is Nirvana.

Peace, Love and Blessings,
 
Hi Chris,
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chrisb:
In nomine Jesu I offer you peace,

If we did not suffer (i.e. experience dukkha) then we would not be caught within the cycle of birth and rebirth. Once we are liberated from dukkha we attain enlightenment (nirvana) and thus cease to exist within the cycle of birth and rebirth which is are present state.
Are you saying that once nibbana is realized, one immediately “ceases to exist”? What does that mean?
In the Anguttara-nikaya, one of the five original Collections in Pali containing the Buddha’s discourses, there is a list of happinesses (sukhani), such as the happiness of family life and the happiness of the life of a recluse, the happiness of sense pleasures and the happiness of renunciation, the happiness of attachment and the happiness of detachment, physical happiness and mental happiness etc. But all these are included in dukkha. Even the very pure spiritual states of dhyana (recueillement or trance) attained by the practice of higher meditation, free from even a shadow of suffering in the accepted sense of the word, states which may be described as unmixed happiness, as well as the state of dhyana which is free from sensations both pleasant (sukha) and unpleasant (dukkha) and is only pure equanimity and awareness - even the very high spiritual states are included in dukkha. In one of the suttas of the Majjhima-nikaya, (again one of the five original Collections), after praising the spiritual happiness of these dhyanas, the Buddha says that they are ‘impermanent, dukkha, and suject to change’ (annicca dukkha viparinamadhamma) (Mahadukkhakkhandha-sutta p. 90). Notice that the word dukkha is explicitly used. It is dukkha, not because there is ‘suffering’ in the ordinary sense of the word, but because ‘whatever is impermanent is dukkha’ (yad aniccam tam dukkham). So you see, the Buddha taught that there are “three” dukkhas, you appear to only wish to admit two of them because the notion that existence is dukkha is something which you are unwilling to accept as dukkha (-dukkha-samkhara).
What does it mean to say “whatever is impermanent is dukkha”? All aggregates are changing, yes, thus impermanent.

What is dukkha? As the second noble truth says, dukkha is caused by clinging to impermanent aggregates. Thus, dukkha is the condition of dissatisfaction caused by clinging.

Samkhara-dukkhata, I would suggest, does not translate as “aggregates themselves are dukkha”. It instead refers to the idea that the potential for the state of dukkha (dukkhata) is associated with the aggregates (samkhara) by the mere fact that they change.

If “existence is itself dukkha”, then the Buddha told a fib when he claimed to have gone beyond dukkha while sitting under the bodhi tree.
The esteemed Buddhist Monk Walpola Sri Rahula translated Samkhara-dukkha as ‘conditional things and states’. It is a by-product of the “five-aggregates”.
Like I said before, Buddhist-to-English translation is still in its infancy.
I dare to say that you are clinging to the two aspect of dukkha and not embracing the third here. Because we experience birth and rebirth, thus we encounter the five-aggregates and thus we encounter dukkha ‘to some degree’ until we cease to experience birth and rebirth.
I agree that everyone who is not nibbana-ized still clings, and thus feels dukkha (including me!). My point is that, for those who know nibbana while walking this earth, dukkha no longer exists.
 
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ahimsaman72:
I don’t believe they are totally incompatible. If you stick to a strict interpretation of both then I can see your point. But, if one keeps an open mind about both, it is possible.
As open as one’s mind might be, their differences and incompatibilities remain. Their similarities are no more remarkable than the fact that a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, and athiest man all put their pants on one leg at a time.

As for the “open mind,” Chesterton has examined that one: “The purpose of an open mind, like an open mouth, is to close it on something solid.”
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ahimsaman72:
Some unitarians are Christians. And, I will admit that 99 % of Buddhists are not Christians and the same with Hindu’s. Although, I know personally a Hindu man from Nepal who accepted Christ!
No unitarian is a Christian; no Buddhist is a Christian; no Hindu is a Christian, and vice-versa, down the line. One might as well contemplate the concept of dry liquid water as try to imagine they are.
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ahimsaman72:
We come to a matter of words and meanings when speaking of who is really a Christian. Our definitions would not be the same.
This is NOT a question of my definition. It is a question of the infallible teachings of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and adherence to them. The Holy Trinity, and the membership in that Trinity of Jesus Christ as the Second Person, God the Son, are central and essential parts of that teaching.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
In nomine Jesu I offer you peace Ahimsa,

From this parable it is quite clear that the Buddha’s teaching is meant to carry man to safety, peace, happiness, tranquility, the attainment of Nirvana. The whole doctrine taught by the Buddha leads to this end. He did not say things just to satisfy intellectual curiousity. He was a practical teacher and taught only those things which would bring peace and happiness to man.

The Buddha was once staying in the Simsapa Forest in Kosambi (near Allhahabad). He took a few leaves into his hand, and asked his disciples: ‘What do you think, O bhikkhus? Which is more? These few leaves in my hand or the leaves in the forest over here?’

‘Sir, very few are the leaves in the hand of the Blessed One, but indeed the leaves in the Simsapa forest over here are very much more abundant.’

'Even so, bhikkhus, of what I have known I have told you only a little, what I have not told you is very much more. And why have I not told you (those things)? Because that is not useful… not leading to Nirvana. That is why I have not told you those things.

It is futile, as some scholars vainly try to do, for us to speculate on what the Buddha knew but did not tell us.

The Buddha was not interested in discussing unnecessary metaphysical questions which are purely speculative and which create imaginary problems. He considered them as a ‘wilderness of opinions’. It seems that there were some among his own disciples who did not appreciate this attitude of his. For, we have the example of one of them, Malunkyaputta by name, who put to the Buddha ten well-known classical questions on metaphysical problems and demanded answers.

One day Malunkyaputta got up from his afternoon meditation, went to the Buddha, saluted him, sat on one side and said:

‘Sir, when I was all alone meditating, this thought occured to me: There are these problems unexplained, put aside and rejected by the Blessed One. Namely, (1) is the universe eternal or (2) is it not eternal, (3) is the universe finite or (4) is it infinite, (5) is soul the same as body or (6) is soul one thing and body another thing, (7) does the Tathagata exist after death, or (8) does he not exist after death, or (9) does he both (at the same time) not exist and exist after death, or (10) does he both (at the same time) not exist and not not-exist. These problems the Blessed One does not explain to me. This (attitude) does not please me, I do not appreciate it. I will go to the Blessed One and ask him about this matter. If the Blessed One explains them to me, then I will continue to follow the holy life under him. If he does not explain them, I will leave the Order and go away. If the Blessed One knows that the universe is eternal, let him explain it to me so. If the Blessed One knows that the universe is not eternal, let him say so. If the Blessed One does not know whether the universe is eternal or not, etc., then for a person who does not know, it is straightforward to say “I do not know, I do not see”.’

[continued]
 
Hi Chris,

I think our disagreement might lie in our interpretation of ‘nibbana without remainder’. I think you see that as happening only after death. Whereas I see it as happening – along with ‘nibbana with remainder’ – while alive, as the sutta below indicates; it is then after death that ‘nibbana without remainder’ is the exclusive nibbana.

Itivuttaka II.17; Itiv. 38

This was said by the Lord…

"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left [with remainder] and the Nibbana-element with no residue left [without remainder].

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion [the causes of dukkha] in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced [all of the aggregates themselves], not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
 
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Ahimsa:
Hi Chris,

I think our disagreement might lie in our interpretation of ‘nibbana without remainder’. I think you see that as happening only after death. Whereas I see it as happening – along with ‘nibbana with remainder’ – while alive, as the sutta below indicates; it is then after death that ‘nibbana without remainder’ is the exclusive nibbana.

Itivuttaka II.17; Itiv. 38

This was said by the Lord…

"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left [with remainder] and the Nibbana-element with no residue left [without remainder].

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion [the causes of dukkha] in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced [all of the aggregates themselves], not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
In nomine Jesu I offer you peace Ahimsa,

Yep, I think that is where we are having our misunderstanding. Thanks for pointing it out. I was really burning out on all the “long” posts but I was also attempting to point to another issue. It is the idea that we can simply “merge” Buddhism with Christianity. They really are historically “two” very different “path”. I find much of this more in line with Hindu ideas of syncretism and perhaps Sufic ideas which I argue derived from Hindu enfluences but it does remind me why I was so interested in these philosophies in Collage. They are all very interesting.

Let me also say it’s very nice to talk with someone about Buddhism without the typical Christian vs. Buddhism debate cropping up.

Peace, Love and Blessings,
 
Gerry Hunter:
As open as one’s mind might be, their differences and incompatibilities remain. Their similarities are no more remarkable than the fact that a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, and athiest man all put their pants on one leg at a time.

As for the “open mind,” Chesterton has examined that one: “The purpose of an open mind, like an open mouth, is to close it on something solid.”

No unitarian is a Christian; no Buddhist is a Christian; no Hindu is a Christian, and vice-versa, down the line. One might as well contemplate the concept of dry liquid water as try to imagine they are.

This is NOT a question of my definition. It is a question of the infallible teachings of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and adherence to them. The Holy Trinity, and the membership in that Trinity of Jesus Christ as the Second Person, God the Son, are central and essential parts of that teaching.

Blessings,

Gerry
If you looked at the website I posted a link to - you would see the many similarities. Of course Christianity isn’t Buddhism and Buddhism isn’t Christianity. They are not the same thing. But there are similarities. I believe much more so than each puts his pants on one leg at a time. I put mine on at the same time myself.🙂 And, generally a Buddhist monk doesn’t wear pants - so…

I don’t adhere to Chesterton’s ideas. His statement is an example of a closed mind. An open mind is one open to possibilities - open to experience truth. A closed mind is one that refuses to see the possibilities - to experience truth in its many forms.

I respectfully disagree on your assessment of Christians. A Christian, by definition, is one who follows Christ, a disciple of Christ, which includes many people. It includes some Christians who belong to the Unitarian Church and some who belong to the Adventist Church, the Baptist Church, etc.

Again, I never said that a Hindu or Buddhist is a Christian. A mango is not an orange. I believe one can touch both Buddhism and Christianity and live his life, though. Catholic monks practice meditation, chant prayers, etc. Buddhist monks practice meditation, chant prayers, etc. And, they have meditated and practiced together as can be attested to by Thich Nhat Hanh. So, the two are not one obviously, but each can take good things from each other and incorporate it into their practices.

Yes, my friend, I understand your position of the Catholic Church as infallible, etc. I just don’t adhere to that. I see it as false - respectfully. I do not think they have that authority or right to impose such restrictions. Christ did not. He said simply, “Follow me…” And so, I follow His teachings which are not necessarily those of the Baptist faith or Catholic faith. And, I don’t see the concept of the Trinity as essential. The concept can be derived from Scripture, but is never said to be a binding concept. But, of course, you would posit the authority of the Catholic Church and what it has proclaimed.

Peace to you…
 
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ahimsaman72:
I don’t adhere to Chesterton’s ideas. His statement is an example of a closed mind. An open mind is one open to possibilities - open to experience truth. A closed mind is one that refuses to see the possibilities - to experience truth in its many forms.
Chesterton was, of course, a Christian and a Catholic, so your disagreement is hardly surprising.

As for the “many forms of truth”, it cannot be true that God is and is not a Trinity, and that Jesus Christ is and is not “THE way, THE truth, and THE life”, to quote Him.
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ahimsaman72:
I respectfully disagree on your assessment of Christians. A Christian, by definition, is one who follows Christ, a disciple of Christ, which includes many people. It includes some Christians who belong to the Unitarian Church and some who belong to the Adventist Church, the Baptist Church, etc.
It is hardly respectful to keep calling it “your [my] assessment” when it has been clearly identified to you as not being mine, but being the teaching of the Church.
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ahimsaman72:
Yes, my friend, I understand your position of the Catholic Church as infallible, etc. I just don’t adhere to that. I see it as false - respectfully. I do not think they have that authority or right to impose such restrictions. Christ did not. He said simply, “Follow me…” And so, I follow His teachings which are not necessarily those of the Baptist faith or Catholic faith. And, I don’t see the concept of the Trinity as essential. The concept can be derived from Scripture, but is never said to be a binding concept. But, of course, you would posit the authority of the Catholic Church and what it has proclaimed.
Scripture you say? Fine. From the Catechism, quoting Scripture:

553 Jesus entrusted a specific authority to Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” [Mt 16:19.] The “power of the keys” designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: “Feed my sheep.”[Jn 21:15-17; cf. 10:11.] The power to “bind and loose” connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles [Cf. Mt 18:18.] and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.

The Church has both the authority and the duty to do as she does.
Whether or not any given person acknowledges that authority is as may be. No statement of the Catholic position can be made without reference to it, so a monist frame of reference is right out.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
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