United Methodist w/ Catholic Question

[mikew262]

That having been said, although you stated it rather bluntly, your statement was not actually false. We have a somewhat different understanding of the Church than we did before, but it is still true that outside the Church, there is no salvation.

Here we go again. Pls read your CCC. I don’t want to steal the thread, but pls review your CCC concerning salvation. Based on certain criteria, salvation outside the Catholic Church is possible.

 

[jmcrae]

Here we go again. Pls read your CCC. I don’t want to steal the thread, but pls review your CCC concerning salvation. Based on certain criteria, salvation outside the Catholic Church is possible.

No it isn’t. What happens is that people can come into the Church in a variety of ways, including ways that are not visible to us or to the human leadership here on earth. But there is no one in Heaven who is not a member of the Church Triumphant.

There are four aspects to the Church:

1. The visible Church here on earth, known as the Church Militant.
2. The Church Suffering - those in Purgatory.
3. The Church Triumphant - those in Heaven.
4. Those who are imperfectly and invisibly joined to the Church through baptism in a separated ecclesial community, and/or through the sincere desire to be joined with Jesus Christ to the best of their understanding (including those who know Him without knowing His name; ie: people living in remote areas who have not yet explicitly heard the Gospel, but who sense His presence and try to follow Him as best they can).

 

[mikew262]

No it isn’t. What happens is that people can come into the Church in a variety of ways, including ways that are not visible to us or to the human leadership here on earth. But there is no one in Heaven who is not a member of the Church Triumphant.

There are four aspects to the Church:

1. The visible Church here on earth, known as the Church Militant.
2. The Church Suffering - those in Purgatory.
3. The Church Triumphant - those in Heaven.
4. Those who are imperfectly and invisibly joined to the Church through baptism in a separated ecclesial community, and/or through the sincere desire to be joined with Jesus Christ to the best of their understanding (including those who know Him without knowing His name; ie: people living in remote areas who have not yet explicitly heard the Gospel, but who sense His presence and try to follow Him as best they can).

Your real close with Item #4. However, that’s not exactly what the CCC says (at least the version I read). I suppose we could start another thread on this, but it would probably last forever. Again, I’m not going to hijack this thread over this, but what you said needed clarification for non-catholics.

For non-catholics, several of us Catholics had a long running discussion over this (both sides of this issue) recently, and never came to an agreement.

 

[jmcrae]

Your real close with Item #4. However, that’s not exactly what the CCC says (at least the version I read).

From the Compendium of the Catechism:

1. Where does the one Church of Christ subsist?

816
870

The one Church of Christ, as a society constituted and organized in the world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him. Only through this Church can one obtain the fullness of the means of salvation since the Lord has entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone whose head is Peter.

1. How are non-Catholic Christians to be considered?

817-819
870

In the churches and ecclesial communities which are separated from full communion with the Catholic Church, many elements of sanctification and truth can be found. All of these blessings come from Christ and lead to Catholic unity. Members of these churches and communities are incorporated into Christ by Baptism and we so we recognize them as brothers.

 

[Contarini]

Because I am not convinced that he does not Edwin. While Vatican II certainly seems to be a start, is it binding(infallible) like previous statements?
BH

Only a small minority of traditionalists doubt this. The argument (which you have probably seen in Caesar’s posts) is that Vatican II was clearly labeled a “pastoral council” and that a “pastoral council” is not protected by the charism of infallibility. As far as I can see, this is simply a desperate attempt to avoid the conflict between the traditionalists’ interpretation of Catholicism and the authority of the Council. It’s true that Vatican II was billed as a “pastoral council” in the sense that it was to address the proclamation of the Gospel in the modern world rather than (like most previous councils) to solve some burning doctrinal controversy. But most Catholics would say that this does not in any way take away from the binding nature of its pronouncements.

Edwin

 

[BrianH]

Only a small minority of traditionalists doubt this. The argument (which you have probably seen in Caesar’s posts) is that Vatican II was clearly labeled a “pastoral council” and that a “pastoral council” is not protected by the charism of infallibility. As far as I can see, this is simply a desperate attempt to avoid the conflict between the traditionalists’ interpretation of Catholicism and the authority of the Council. It’s true that Vatican II was billed as a “pastoral council” in the sense that it was to address the proclamation of the Gospel in the modern world rather than (like most previous councils) to solve some burning doctrinal controversy. But most Catholics would say that this does not in any way take away from the binding nature of its pronouncements.

Edwin

Um…
Well, would you agree the traditionalists interpretation of Catholicism was accurate prior to Vatican II?
Too long of a question and little to do with the thread, perhaps some other time then.

 

[jmcrae]

Um…
Well, would you agree the traditionalists interpretation of Catholicism was accurate prior to Vatican II?

Even at the time of Trent, it was understood that people who had no way of knowing about the Church were not bound under pain of sin to join it. God does not require the impossible of us.

He does, however, require the possible - we still believe that there is only one Church, and that everyone who understands that they need to belong to it, needs to belong to it.

Dominus Jesus gets into more detail about this, including footnotes from the Council of Trent.

 

[puzzleannie]

Hi,

I am a mid-life, female, mechanical engineer in my second year of seminary for a Master’s of Divinty in Clinical Pastoral Counseling. y

wow that is quite a step and quite a career change, and I am sure called for a lot of discernment and certainly courage.

for a Catholic, seminary preparation means a vocation to the sacrificial priesthood, a vocation which does not exist in protestant denominations, other than those such as Anglicans which retain the concept of priesthood in the full sacrificial sense (and of course the Orthodox).

For most protestants, seminary means preparation for ministry, usually pastoral ministry. The job description of a Catholic priest certainly includes pastoral ministry, but the participation in the sacrificial priesthood is the most essential to the vocation.

In the Catholic church, a lot of “jobs” that call for preparation in pastoral counselling, social service and related fields actually are done by lay persons, including lay women. That might be for a Catholic institution, college, hospital, social welfare agency etc., or for a diocese, in various departments that directly concern themselves with needs of individuals: Catholic Charities, Family Life office, Immigration Assistance etc. For that matter any administrative, or professional position that exists in the business or non-profit world exists in the Catholic world–accounting, management, IP, HRD etc.

National Catholic publications such as the National Catholic Register, Our Sunday Visitor have job listings, and diocesan websites also list job openings. If you are specifically thinking of working in a CAtholic diocese or institution and seminary is no longer an option, you might consider finishing your degree at a Catholic college and taking advantage of their placement office.

I don’t know if you have a tradition of spiritual direction for those in seminary formation, it has always been part of the Catholic process, and certainly could benefit you at this time. Since your “major” is rather specific, probably there is someone you should be talking to about realistic career choices as well, where and how would you use this degree, and that kind of guidance. Good luck, we are pretty sharp in the prayer dept. here and will certainly pray for you to discern and cooperate with God’s will for you in this path.

A relative who is a minister in a non-denominational church got the same degree a few years ago and is now working with a church-based agency that does alcohol and drug rehab, specifically working with mothers who have been in prison or institutionalized, helping them return home and get their families back together. Not the direction she planned when she started out, but she also works on a disaster team for her church, and was sent to Ground Zero, to Biloxi, and other places following disasters to work directly with famlies of victims. This was a mid-life change for her as well, and she is very happy, very busy and very underpaid.

 

[Subrosa]

Catholics believe they are the true church and there is no salvation outside of it. It isnt about beauty, it is about changing a great many of your Methodist beliefs.

Hi Brian -
This is absolutely not true.

I will give you that it is a teaching of the Church, but since Vatican II the understanding of it’s meaning has been reconsidered.

From the **‘Ut unum sint.’" *****

**10 **

"(The Second Vatican Council) acknowledges that ‘many elements of sanctification and of truth can be found outside her visible structure. These elements, however, as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, possess an inner dynamism toward Catholic unity.’

“‘It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church.’”

**

 

[BrianH]

Hi Brian -
**This is absolutely not true. **

From the ‘Ut unum sint.’" ***

---

Cool.

Catholics believe they are the true church and there is no salvation outside of it. It isnt about beauty, it is about changing a great many of your Methodist beliefs.

Let me change my statement then!

Catholicism is not the true church, there is salvation outside of it, and you will not have to change any of your Methodist beliefs!
or
Catholicism is part of the true church, there is salvation outside of it but its better to be Catholic, and Methodist beliefs is an oxymoron anyway.
Just joking about the last part…

 

[jmcrae]

Cool.

Let me change my statement then!

Catholicism is not the true church, there is salvation outside of it, and you will not have to change any of your Methodist beliefs!
or
Catholicism is part of the true church, there is salvation outside of it but its better to be Catholic, and Methodist beliefs is an oxymoron anyway.
Just joking about the last part…

Actually, one might say, "the Methodist Church contains many elements of sanctification and of truth. These elements, however, as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, possess an inner dynamism toward Catholic unity.

We believe that although Methodism suffers from defects, it has by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using the Methodist Church as means of salvation, and it derives its efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church."

And yes, it’s definitely better to be Catholic.

 

[Subrosa]

Cool.

Let me change my statement then!

Catholicism is not the true church, there is salvation outside of it, and you will not have to change any of your Methodist beliefs!
or
Catholicism is part of the true church, there is salvation outside of it but its better to be Catholic, and Methodist beliefs is an oxymoron anyway.
Just joking about the last part…

Hi Brian -

Ok, ok, let me back up a bit. I got a little excited and overspoke myself.

The Catholic Church is the true church established by Our Lord. That goes for the Orthodox churches, too. No Reformation churches can claim that.

Methodists are saved by virtue of God’s Grace.

You should be Catholic, though. That way you get the Body and Blood of Christ to boot! :bounce:

Subrosa

 

[Contarini]

Um…
Well, would you agree the traditionalists interpretation of Catholicism was accurate prior to Vatican II?

Depends which traditionalists and when before Vatican II, but generally I think that the fairly moderate traditionalists on this board (such as Caesar if I understand his very simplistic and belligerent posts correctly), who do allow for the possibility of Protestants being saved through invincible ignorance but are not willing to speak of non-Catholic churches as a whole as means of grace or salvation, are fairly representative of the pre-Vatican-II position, yes. But you have to realize that it wasn’t a sudden turnaround. Baptism by desire is an ancient concept, and in the Middle Ages there are stories that indicate that it might somehow apply to people who did not explicitly desire baptism–the story about Gregory I praying for the soul of the Emperor Trajan, for instance. Invincible ignorance is, as far as I can see, a more modern idea. I can’t recall a statement of it before the 19th century, but that may simply be my ignorance (vincible or invincible). I doubt that it simply sprang into existence then. The more liberal position of Vatican II resulted from the marriage of a doctrine of implicit desire for baptism (in the case of non-Christians, or for full membership in the Church in the case of non-Catholic Christians) with a very generous definition of “invincible ignorance.” This marriage, as I see it, created something that really can’t be adequately expressed in those terms any more. Before Vatican II the position would have been “non-Catholics cannot be saved, but there are exceptions for those who honestly don’t know any better.” After Vatican II the exceptions appear to overwhelm the rule.

Edwin

 

[mikew262]

From the Compendium of the Catechism:

I’ll raise you one quote. Pretty clear to me that somebody outside (Including a sincere Methodist) the Catholic Church may obtain salvation.

From : catholic-catechism.com/

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.1

 

[jmcrae]

I’ll raise you one quote. Pretty clear to me that somebody outside (Including a sincere Methodist) the Catholic Church may obtain salvation.

From : catholic-catechism.com/

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.1

Yes - but they would not remain outside of God’s grace (aka the Church) in so doing. At some point along the way to Heaven - while still alive here on earth, at the moment of death, or else in Purgatory, they would become Catholic.

 

[Thoughtful]

Mike, I think in all fairness you need to quote the **entire **section, not just one snippet out of context. And, since it is pretty clear to you, perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us with what it means. Thanks!

PART 1, SECTION 2 2, CHAPTER 3 3, ARTICLE 9, PARAGRAPH 3, SUBSECTION 3, HEADING 5
**
“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336

**847 **This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

**848 **“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” 338

kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/

 

[Thoughtful]

I’ll raise you one quote. Pretty clear to me that somebody outside (Including a sincere Methodist) the Catholic Church may obtain salvation.

From : catholic-catechism.com/

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, **do not know Christ **and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, **do not know the Gospel of Christ **or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.1

Are you suggesting that a sincere Methodist does not know Christ, does not know the Gospel of Christ, and has never heard of the Catholic Church?

 

[sadie2723]

Hi,

I am a mid-life, female, mechanical engineer in my second year of seminary for a Master’s of Divinty in Clinical Pastoral Counseling. Due to seminary issues, the UM church may not accept my seminary for ordination in their church which means I would be researching other denominations to see where I fit theologically and doctrinally. I should know more in about a month.

Meanwhile, I work with Catholics that are returning to the faith and we share a lot of commonality as far as our desiring deeper intimacy with Christ, a life filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and exhibiting the fruits of that life, and the need to reach out to help others in a world full of hurting people.

I have always found beauty in worship services of both Catholic and Orthodox churches, along with other Protestant churches. I don’t have any ecumenical prejudices that I am aware of. God is many places - not just in my church and not just in any other.

I started seminary knowing I was called to seminary but not to what field. The degree I am pursuing can lead, in the Protestant world, to parish ministry, chaplaincy or pastoral counseling.

As simply a curiosity at this point, is there anywhere in the Catholic church where I could be in His service full-time using the degree I am currently pursuing? Ordination is out but that’s not limiting for me. Not being able to help others in His name and for His glory would be limiting for me.

Blessings to all and may we all seek greater understanding of our Lord’s heart.

Nancy

I have a question too, but we will get to that in a second.

The first thing that I can tell you is that there are hundreds of jobs out there in the Catholic Church with people of your training. In my parish, for instance, we have a full time RCIA person that does nothing but teach the faith to people that are converting. I think that would be a good use of your skills. There are also many other jobs for you too.

Now to my question. It seems, and I may be reading a bit into this, that you have some inner conflict going on about joining the Catholic Church. If that is the case…and that is a big IF…please let us know so that we can help out on that front as well.

Cheers!

Brad

 

[Subrosa]

Are you suggesting that a sincere Methodist does not know Christ, does not know the Gospel of Christ, and has never heard of the Catholic Church?

Hi Thoughful -

I think the operative phrase in the passage is this one: but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.

I could sit and argue that the Methodist does not know the Church of God and in turn cannot know the whole truth of Christ, even though that person would argue stringently against my statement.

But the reality is that people who seek God with sincerity are open to God’s grace. That is the salvific element, even for groups such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

By the way, the JW’s will tell you that you will not be saved unless you are a JW, period, no argument.

Subrosa

 

[BlestOne]

Nancy,
I live in a small town in the midwest… The Methodist Minister in our town used to come over for mass after services. When his congregation complained, he started driving 2 hours away to attend mass on Sunday mornings. Eventually he left the UM Church and went into the Catholic priesthood. I know this isn’t an option for you, but there are very many positions open to women like PuzzleAnnie pointed out. Her suggestions are usually very good, and if I recall she is a DRE (Director of Religious Education). I used to be an asst director and loved it! Your options are not limited in the Catholic Church except for the Priesthood.

I am sorry that on your first thread here certain people have severely tried to derail your topic. There never seems to be a shortage of people who have an agenda. Welcome to the CA Forums, I hope you stick around and get to know us. After a little bit, you will see who knows what and who has good advice, and well…who is just plum off their rocker. Good luck and blessings over your current situation. I know it will end up to be for the best, however it turns out. God’s plans are always better than our own.