United States Citizenship

[Kendy]

Hi Guys,

I am hoping you guys are willing and able to help me thinking through this issue. I have lived in the United States most of my life, and I am eligile to become a citizen. And I feel like I should so I can do things like vote. But the truth is I don’t know if I feel like an American citizen. It seems like the culture is moving in a direction that is so not Christian. When I watch television, I just don’t see myself. Plus, I am very uncomfortable with all the talk about national sovereignty and all that. I realize this will offend, but I don’t understand why patriotism is such a great virtue. In fact, I am inclined to tink that it causes a great deal of harm. I don’t partiularly care if my socks are made in illinois or el salvador.

But I also don’t care if they are made in Haiti either, which is where I was born. I know it’s cliche, but I really do just want to be a human being without a national title. This does not mean that I want a one world government. I would rather live in a small catholic commune, prefereally somewhere I can avoid social security taxes. Which brings me to the only identity I feel intensely, I am a catholic.

Does anyone out there sympathize?

 

[Newbie2]

Sorry, but not really. You live in this country, with all its benefits and freedoms but don’t want to become a citizen? And go somewhere where you don’t have to pay taxes?

You don’t have to become a flag-waving patriot to be a good citizen.

How about the religious life?

 

[Kendy]

Sorry, but not really. You live in this country, with all its benefits and freedoms but don’t want to become a citizen? And go somewhere where you don’t have to pay taxes?

You don’t have to become a flag-waving patriot to be a good citizen.

How about the religious life?

Yes, the benefits and freedom. I think Americans over estimate their freedoms, most of which constantly being curtailed and underestimate the cost.

How free am I when half of my money (which means half of my energies) goes to causes that I would never support, including subsidizing abortion, subsidizing ethanol farmers at the expense of third world countries who are now struggling to pay for food as a result of that policy. And how about my freedoms as a Christians? Are you aware of how many Christians institutions are being forced to provide contraception, like catholic charities. And I could go one about this.

But more importantly, I guess, I want to know what is an American? I guess, I should know what it all means

 

[Dale_M]

Does anyone out there sympathize?

Sure, I think lots of folks consider being Christian more important than being American. (And if you don’t, perhaps you have your priorities turned around).

Patriotism is sort of like Thanksgiving dinner - its generally good, but can be overindulged, leading to problems.

Your desire to be a citizen of the world is not uncommon. I would point out, however, that it is not incompatible with being American.
Patriotism is a matter of degrees.

 

[Dale_M]

How free am I when half of my money (which means half of my energies) goes to causes that I would never support, including subsidizing abortion, subsidizing ethanol farmers at the expense of third world countries who are now struggling to pay for food as a result of that policy. And how about my freedoms as a Christians? Are you aware of how many Christians institutions are being forced to provide contraception, like catholic charities.

But what is the alternative? I think all democracies will inevitably have policies which displease some people, because not all citizens agree with one another about what is important. And if the government is not a democracy, then the possibility of undesirable policies is even greater.

But more importantly, I guess, I want to know what is an American? I guess, I should know what it all means

Wow, that is a stumper. But if you went through the naturalization course, I bet you would find out!

 

[Kendy]

But what is the alternative? I think all democracies will inevitably have policies which displease some people, because not all citizens agree with one another about what is important. And if the government is not a democracy, then the possibility of undesirable policies is even greater.

Wow, that is a stumper. But if you went through the naturalization course, I bet you would find out!

I don’t know about that. The questions on the naturalization test are easy, but what is an American?

 

[Della]

I don’t know about that. The questions on the naturalization test are easy, but what is an American?

An American is one who loves America. If you do not love America then do not become an American.

 

[Kendy]

An American is one who loves America. If you do not love America then do not become an American.

Well, What does that mean? Do I love American soil? Do I love the American people? I love these things as much as I love Indian soil? It always annoys me when there’s some tragedy around the world and 500 people die and the reporter points out that three Americans died as if it was more tragic. I care about three Americans, but I also care about the other 497 people.

So, is the American someone who loves America (or Americans) than other people? If that’s the case, then I guess, I am not an American.

On the other hand, I know that while I am concerned about the plight of the Iraqi people, I am especially concerned about Iraqui Christians. So, again, that’s the only identity I feel the need to cling on to.

Kendy

 

[Della]

Well, What does that mean? Do I love American soil? Do I love the American people? I love these things as much as I love Indian soil? It always annoys me when there’s some tragedy around the world and 500 people die and the reporter points out that three Americans died as if it was more tragic. I care about three Americans, but I also care about the other 497 people.

Yes, you love the essence of what is America, in the same way you love your family members. It’s a love relationship, not one in which you love your country only if it does everything right.

As to your example of the 500 people killed and the American press reporting that 3 Americans died. They report that because it is of interest to their fellow Americans just as it would be if 3 of your family members died in the same incident–that would hold more meaning for you personally, but of course we should care about the others, too.

So, is the American someone who loves America (or Americans) than other people? If that’s the case, then I guess, I am not an American.

No human being loves everyone equally, and God doesn’t expect us to. We naturally love those we know, such as family or those we have some strong attachment to, such as our fellow Christians.

On the other hand, I know that while I am concerned about the plight of the Iraqi people, I am especially concerned about Iraqui Christians. So, again, that’s the only identity I feel the need to cling on to.

Kendy

You have proved my point. You love Iraqi Christians more than Iraqi Muslims because you identify with the Christians more than the Muslims. This doesn’t at all mean you don’t care about the Muslims, just that your Christian brethren are of more concern to you than they. And that’s perfectly natural and not against the laws of God or man. What is particularly Christian is to love all people, no matter their race or creed, but there is nothing wrong with having more love/preference for those close to you in relationships or in interests or nationality, chosen or born into.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Hi Guys,

I am hoping you guys are willing and able to help me thinking through this issue. I have lived in the United States most of my life, and I am eligile to become a citizen. And I feel like I should so I can do things like vote. But the truth is I don’t know if I feel like an American citizen. It seems like the culture is moving in a direction that is so not Christian. When I watch television, I just don’t see myself. Plus, I am very uncomfortable with all the talk about national sovereignty and all that. I realize this will offend, but I don’t understand why patriotism is such a great virtue. In fact, I am inclined to tink that it causes a great deal of harm. I don’t partiularly care if my socks are made in illinois or el salvador.

But I also don’t care if they are made in Haiti either, which is where I was born. I know it’s cliche, but I really do just want to be a human being without a national title. This does not mean that I want a one world government. I would rather live in a small catholic commune, prefereally somewhere I can avoid social security taxes. Which brings me to the only identity I feel intensely, I am a catholic.

Does anyone out there sympathize?

You say you’re from Haiti.

Which country do you think, all things considred, is better? Which is more free? Which offers more opportunity?

I think you have voted with your feet – you chose to live in the United States. Now, no one says the United States is perfect – rather we say it’s better than other choices, and we have a duty to strive to make it better yet. That’s what being a citizen is all about.

 

[rwoehmke]

So name us a couple of countries where you would be better off. Why not go there? I guess I am asking if the United States does not work for you, why are you here instead of somewhere you might prefer ?

 

[hasikelee]

It sounds like you have been living the life of someone who is not “in the system” or tied to a country, so you are seeing the cons of being a citizen and mistaking your dislike of these cons as a dislike for America.

 

[Kendy]

You say you’re from Haiti.

Which country do you think, all things considred, is better? Which is more free? Which offers more opportunity?

I think you have voted with your feet – you chose to live in the United States. Now, no one says the United States is perfect – rather we say it’s better than other choices, and we have a duty to strive to make it better yet. That’s what being a citizen is all about.

Well, first of all my parents did the voting since I was a kid. Second, while there are lots of problems in Haiti. There are cultural things in Haiti that I think are better. For example, we take care of our parents till they die. We don’t drop them off somewhere. And Haitian teenagers are a lot less disrespectful.

Having said that, I am not that passionate about being a Haitian citizen either. I don’t love the Haitian people more than I love the American people.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

So name us a couple of countries where you would be better off. Why not go there? I guess I am asking if the United States does not work for you, why are you here instead of somewhere you might prefer ?

I don’t know. I have only lived in two countries so it’s hard to say. There are all kinds of indicators that certain countries are better in some aspects and worst and others. I am not saying that America is better or worst in every way. For example, I wouldn’t mind a European work life, but I prefer America’s commitment to free speech, which most European countries don’t have that.

I do think the American tendency to think we’re better in everyway is problematic and possibly dangerous. For example, there’s all kinds of evidence that we have been doing a poor job educating children and that in the long one this may have serious economic consequences. But I think Americans have a hard time saying, they are doing a good job educating their children in Sweeden. Maybe, we should take a look.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

It sounds like you have been living the life of someone who is not “in the system” or tied to a country, so you are seeing the cons of being a citizen and mistaking your dislike of these cons as a dislike for America.

I actually don’t dislike America. I am just not more loyal to America than any other country. I don’t like contemporary American popular culture, which I find a little coarse. But I don’t wish America or her people ill. But I am not sure what is a good reason for becoming an American. I guess, since I live here I might as well get the right to vote. Do Americans expect more than that for people who seek citizenship. I would think so.

Kendy

 

[po18guy]

Hi Guys,

I am hoping you guys are willing and able to help me thinking through this issue. I have lived in the United States most of my life, and I am eligile to become a citizen. And I feel like I should so I can do things like vote. But the truth is I don’t know if I feel like an American citizen. It seems like the culture is moving in a direction that is so not Christian. When I watch television, I just don’t see myself. Plus, I am very uncomfortable with all the talk about national sovereignty and all that. I realize this will offend, but I don’t understand why patriotism is such a great virtue. In fact, I am inclined to tink that it causes a great deal of harm. I don’t partiularly care if my socks are made in illinois or el salvador.

But I also don’t care if they are made in Haiti either, which is where I was born. I know it’s cliche, but I really do just want to be a human being without a national title. This does not mean that I want a one world government. I would rather live in a small catholic commune, prefereally somewhere I can avoid social security taxes. Which brings me to the only identity I feel intensely, I am a catholic.

Does anyone out there sympathize?

Remember that Christ was known as a Nazorean. This was a nationalistic title. He did not deny it, even though He knew better. There is nothing intrinsically good or bad about being American. However, you are exactly what America needs. You have the voice of a well-formed conscience. You love God. Saint Paul told us to submit to earthly authority as well as Heavenly, as God created both. Without voices of conscience forming and directing our government, how much worse off would we be?

As to citizenship, you are already a citizen of Heaven. While on earth, the Lord also expects you to reveal good citizenship in the nation of your residence, otherwise you will always remain a foreigner in your own country. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that voting and other forms of participation in government are our responsibility.

So, if you are already living here, contributing positively to society as you are, and reaping the benefits of freedom and opportunity, I humbly suggest that you consider citizenship, as all Americans would be honored to have you obtain this status. My wife is originally from El Salvador (“The Savior”), and was delighted to obtain her citizenship.

I would be first to embrace you.

May Christ’s peace always be with you.

 

[Kendy]

Remember that Christ was known as a Nazorean. This was a nationalistic title. He did not deny it, even though He knew better. There is nothing intrinsically good or bad about being American. However, you are exactly what America needs. You have the voice of a well-formed conscience. You love God. Saint Paul told us to submit to earthly authority as well as Heavenly, as God created both. Without voices of conscience forming and directing our government, how much worse off would we be?

As to citizenship, you are already a citizen of Heaven. While on earth, the Lord also expects you to reveal good citizenship in the nation of your residence, otherwise you will always remain a foreigner in your own country. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that voting and other forms of participation in government are our responsibility.

So, if you are already living here, contributing positively to society as you are, and reaping the benefits of freedom and opportunity, I humbly suggest that you consider citizenship, as all Americans would be honored to have you obtain this status. My wife is originally from El Salvador (“The Savior”), and was delighted to obtain her citizenship.

I would be first to embrace you.

May Christ’s peace always be with you.

Thank You, that was a very nice response .

Where in the catechism does it talk about citizenship? I would like to know.

Kendy

 

[po18guy]

Where in the catechism does it talk about citizenship? I would like to know. Kendy

This may appear to be a lot of reading, but it is well worth the time.

CCC 1877-1880 and 1890-1891 define the social nature of man.

CCC 1181-1882 and 1892-1893 define the relationship between the citizen and society.

CCC 1886-1889 and 1895-1896 define the requirements for an authentic human society.

CCC 1897-1902 define the need for societal authority, and CCC 1918-1920 show that authority is in human nature, corresponding to the order established by God.

CCC 1901-1904 reveal that legitimate human authority is exercised when it acts for the common good.

CCC 1921-1922 relate to the rule of law and deal with objections to unjust laws.

CCC 1905-1906, 1907-1909, and 1924-1925 define the “common good” that is to be sought through civil authority.

Perhaps most importantly, CCC 1910-1912 and 1927 defines where one may find the means to realize the “common good”

Also, here is a link to an EWTN article by Father Stephen Torraco regarding responsible and moral voting: ewtn.com/vote/brief_catechism.htm

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Become a citizen and attempt to change the culture with your vote and your life.

 

[Newbie2]

Yes, the benefits and freedom. I think Americans over estimate their freedoms, most of which constantly being curtailed and underestimate the cost.
But more importantly, I guess, I want to know what is an American? I guess, I should know what it all means

Well, what does citizenship in general mean to you?

Well, What does that mean? Do I love American soil? Do I love the American people? I love these things as much as I love Indian soil? It always annoys me when there’s some tragedy around the world and 500 people die and the reporter points out that three Americans died as if it was more tragic. I care about three Americans, but I also care about the other 497 people.

So, is the American someone who loves America (or Americans) than other people? If that’s the case, then I guess, I am not an American.
Kendy

No, that’s not what it means. If you want to put it in realitivistic terms, it means that you appreciate that you have a better life here in America than you would have anywhere else. If not, why on earth would you stay here?

Citizenship has certain duties associated with it, as you know; voting, paying taxes, serving on jury duty when called. I must admit that it bugs me a bit when you are living under the umbrella of all that this country affords you, but don’t want to contribute your citizenship.

You don’t have to like everything that goes on here, but if you’re a citizen, you’ve got a much better means of affecting a positive change, right?

So name us a couple of countries where you would be better off. Why not go there? I guess I am asking if the United States does not work for you, why are you here instead of somewhere you might prefer ?

I actually don’t dislike America. I am just not more loyal to America than any other country. I don’t like contemporary American popular culture, which I find a little coarse. But I don’t wish America or her people ill. But I am not sure what is a good reason for becoming an American. I guess, since I live here I might as well get the right to vote. Do Americans expect more than that for people who seek citizenship. I would think so.

Kendy

Yes, we do.

Become a citizen and attempt to change the culture with your vote and your life.