United States of Sodom and Gomarah

[Walcot]

Right, you’re going to have to draw your line of sight away from SOME Christians, and address the ones in front of you, because like anybody else, I cannot answer for other people.

Now you should probably go back and read what I posted, linked there was an answer to this question from Jesus Christ Himself.

Check out that answer, isn’t it a good answer? Isn’t it a decent and loving answer? Doesn’t it ring true?

Be honest.

Everything and anything would be OK for God regardless of what a human thought. God is God, and utterly inscrutable to you and I.

Consider the things the scriptures imply about Him when they describe Him - they seem to tell us God “experiences” time non-linearly, permeates the multiverse (or whatever actually exists) and can hold it all in His intellect and memory (or whatever He has that knows things)

If you and I cannot perceive as He does in an even slightly meaningful way, then logically we have not even got an idea of whether anything He does is good or bad or anything else, unless He informs us of this. As such, it is no more possible and makes no more sense for you or I to pass judgment on Him according to our tiny moral sensibilities, than to question how good a supernova seems to be at mathematics.

PS: Thanks for your comments earlier - you have drawn to my attention how angry I seemed, and that I need to think about whether I might drive people away from God through this.

So we’re agreed that capital punishment is wrong?
I agree; we cannot get into the ‘mind’ of God…but that doesn’t stop people trying and claiming to! I see the Catholic church as a very successful institution because it holds so much power in this regard and can even, on occasion, go so far as to claim infallibility. You say you take your understanding of homosexuality from church teaching, back when you were a child - This is something I find difficult to understand…my experience and conscience says otherwise, and I reject that teaching. Now someone will say “how can you think you know better than God?” But I don’t. I don’t think that men in the Catholic church can know the will of God either. I’ve said what are my views on the OT.
Where then, can non Catholics get their ‘moral compass’ from? Lots of places. I’ve heard more ‘Christian’ ideas and sentiments (if you see what I mean!) from the various Seikh/Buddhist/Muslims who take their turns (along with Christians) to give their ‘thought for the day’ each morning on our BBC radio news programme, than I sometimes hear from Christians themselves (present company excluded).
For the record, I think you sound like a thoroughly nice person with some truly Christian feelings for people. I would hope that you don’t harden your heart because you perceive an ‘enemy’ at work. People who are marginalised by an institution get frustrated by intransigence and I guess they get fed up by being told they’re unnatural or whatever. No, I don’t believe it will become illegal to be ‘Christian’! If some religious beliefs come head to head with someone else’s belief(religious or not), then we are obviously, as a society, going to have to make decisions - maybe in court. That’s all part of living in society like we do in the west. We will never ALL be Christian let alone Catholic, so we’ll have to find better ways to rub along together!

 

[speakttruth]

But it’s not just YOUR religion is it? You have to share Christianity with other people, some of whom understand that homosexuality is not disordered and intrinsically evil. And the people who you feel are being so nasty in the face of your judgments are not necessarily saying that God/Christianity is evil…they’re just accusing some Christians.
I see your signature is ‘judge not lest you be judged’…and yet you do just that. And now you give yourself the excuse for not being nice about it!

We don’t listen to an agnostic, we listen to the church, they are not here to learn but to undermine our faith
GB.

 

[speakttruth]

So to get back to my earlier point…stoning and genocide, condoned in the OT are things inspired by God and are therefore OK? In rejecting said stoning and genocide, todays Christians are not ‘picking and choosing’?

God is God and he does what he wants he created us, but we as humans are fallen and if we don’t turn to God then he lets us on our own and so we get in trouble. Free will He allows certain evils to bring out the greater good. When we repent he helps us all over again.

God had different ways of dealing with people in the OT. The Jewish had there laws and they would stone people for not obeying it. They also had rituals which we don’t practice. People should be happy we don’t live in the Jewish days the way we are sinning now because we would be stoned to death. But Jesus changed all that.
So you don’t even believe in God why are you here?
This is a Catholic forum and there is no debate about the Catholic faith believing in God so it looks like your not trying to understand our faith, but trying to undermine it…
Just my observation.
GB

 

[Seeker1961]

God is God and he does what he wants he created us, but we as humans are fallen and if we don’t turn to God then he lets us on our own and so we get in trouble. Free will He allows certain evils to bring out the greater good. When we repent he helps us all over again.

God had different ways of dealing with people in the OT. The Jewish had there laws and they would stone people for not obeying it. They also had rituals which we don’t practice. People should be happy we don’t live in the Jewish days the way we are sinning now because we would be stoned to death. But Jesus changed all that.
So you don’t even believe in God why are you here?
This is a Catholic forum and there is no debate about the Catholic faith believing in God so it looks like your not trying to understand our faith, but trying to undermine it…
Just my observation.
GB

I’m going to use this post as an example. You are certainly not the only one who responds to non-Catholics and non-believers this way-it’s something I have seen many times here and I think it needs to be addressed.

This is an internet forum. People of all types wander in here and read. When someone posts something that disagrees with our faith, how should we handle that? Should we tell them they that are not welcome or should we welcome their curiosity and try to bring them to an understanding of why we believe what we do. If we push people away because they don’t share our faith, and accuse them of trying to “undermine” us, what kind of witness is that to God? If your faith is solid, an internet poster shouldn’t be able to undermine it anyway. These are opportunities for us to share the truths of our faith, be welcoming to the curious and show people a different side of Catholics than what they see in the media.

This forum might be the one journey someone takes to see what Catholics are like. What image do we want to portray to those people?

 

[Walcot]

God is God and he does what he wants he created us, but we as humans are fallen and if we don’t turn to God then he lets us on our own and so we get in trouble. Free will He allows certain evils to bring out the greater good. When we repent he helps us all over again.

God had different ways of dealing with people in the OT. The Jewish had there laws and they would stone people for not obeying it. They also had rituals which we don’t practice. People should be happy we don’t live in the Jewish days the way we are sinning now because we would be stoned to death. But Jesus changed all that.
So you don’t even believe in God why are you here?
This is a Catholic forum and there is no debate about the Catholic faith believing in God so it looks like your not trying to understand our faith, but trying to undermine it…
Just my observation.
GB

Agnostic, not atheist.

 

[Walcot]

Walcot

So capital punishment is OK is it?

You want to equate capital punishment with murder?

Yes, what would you call it, in the light of Jesus’s teaching?

 

[Walcot]

I’m going to use this post as an example. You are certainly not the only one who responds to non-Catholics and non-believers this way-it’s something I have seen many times here and I think it needs to be addressed.

This is an internet forum. People of all types wander in here and read. When someone posts something that disagrees with our faith, how should we handle that? Should we tell them they that are not welcome or should we welcome their curiosity and try to bring them to an understanding of why we believe what we do. If we push people away because they don’t share our faith, and accuse them of trying to “undermine” us, what kind of witness is that to God? If your faith is solid, an internet poster shouldn’t be able to undermine it anyway. These are opportunities for us to share the truths of our faith, be welcoming to the curious and show people a different side of Catholics than what they see in the media.

This forum might be the one journey someone takes to see what Catholics are like. What image do we want to portray to those people?

Thank you. I know I don’t share all your religious beliefs but I AM curious and I believe debate is good for both sides of an argument…comments here make me think hard and sometimes, even if my opinion hasn’t changed, I get a clearer understanding of the issues from the people who care to explain without ranting. Isn’t it good to occasionally get a challenge of our opinions from those who think differently from us?!
PS What do you mean by ‘not a CAF Catholic?’

 

[Seeker1961]

Thank you. I know I don’t share all your religious beliefs but I AM curious and I believe debate is good for both sides of an argument…comments here make me think hard and sometimes, even if my opinion hasn’t changed, I get a clearer understanding of the issues from the people who care to explain without ranting. Isn’t it good to occasionally get a challenge of our opinions from those who think differently from us?!
PS What do you mean by ‘not a CAF Catholic?’

Over the time that I have spent here, I have run into “rules” for Catholics that I have been unable to find in a Catechism or been able to confirm with my Confessor. So, I put that on my profile as a little bit of snark. I probably should take it off, because I really was just being snarky, there’s nothing real about it.

 

[speakttruth]

The OT justifies slavery as opposed to mass slaughter of a conquered people. Also, slavery in the OT is a far cry from what a modern person understands as slavery. A man had to care for his slaves as he would a modern hourly worker; as well as provide adequate food and shelter. That, to me, seems far better than being killed.

Stoning was a form of execution no different in concept from the electric chair, lethal injection, firing squad, guillotine, etc. There were also stringent rules for when this sentence was carried out. True, it is more brutal; but it was the most common method widely available. The goal in a stoning is for the head to take a hit first, numbing the body or knocking them unconscious, therefore preventing them from feeling most of the pain for the rest of the execution. There are better methods, sure, but hindsight’s 20x20, and this was the best they had come up with at the time.

The genocide your referring too involves the slaughter of a race of people who delighted in killing their own. They engaged in brutal and near-constant human sacrifice to Baal ( I think it was Baal), were warlike for no reason other than to claim sacrifices and slaves (who’s treatment was probably close to what your mind first thinks of for slavery); and engaged in beastial sexual practices, including the rape of captive men women and children, mass orgies, and general sexual debasement.

Basically, the culture represented the absolute lowest level of humanity, and that is why they were wiped out; and justifiably so, to save the people of the surrounding territories, and any others who may have crossed paths with this race.

Thank you for explaining this. Especially for the people who should learn their Catholic faith and not push heretical views against the Catholic Church and for the people who are just here that don’t even believe in God who are just here to undermine our faith. We don’t have to understand everything the church teaches, but we have to believe in everything she does or nothing.
We can’t pick and choose. Other wise were Cafeteria Catholics, (used to be one, know better now.
GB

 

[speakttruth]

I’m going to use this post as an example. You are certainly not the only one who responds to non-Catholics and non-believers this way-it’s something I have seen many times here and I think it needs to be addressed.

This is an internet forum. People of all types wander in here and read. When someone posts something that disagrees with our faith, how should we handle that? Should we tell them they that are not welcome or should we welcome their curiosity and try to bring them to an understanding of why we believe what we do. If we push people away because they don’t share our faith, and accuse them of trying to “undermine” us, what kind of witness is that to God? If your faith is solid, an internet poster shouldn’t be able to undermine it anyway. These are opportunities for us to share the truths of our faith, be welcoming to the curious and show people a different side of Catholics than what they see in the media.

This forum might be the one journey someone takes to see what Catholics are like. What image do we want to portray to those people?

Seeker, I don’t have a problem with people asking questions,or trying to understand why we believe what we believe, but when they are mocking our faith or putting it down, I have a problem with it. I don’t comprised with the truth like you might, I have learned that the church of nice isn’t how we win souls. We have to be militant in our belief and some people on here are trying to persuade people in an uncharitable way to question the Catholic Church. Maybe you don’t have a problem because of your own personal situation, but I do. Some people like hiding behind these web sites to just try an antagonize people because of there own unhappiness. I will continue to defend our faith. The faith our Lord died for.
GB

 

[speakttruth]

Reading 1 Jer 7:23-28

Thus says the LORD:
This is what I commanded my people:
Listen to my voice;
then I will be your God and you shall be my people.
Walk in all the ways that I command you,
so that you may prosper.

But they obeyed not, nor did they pay heed.
They walked in the hardness of their evil hearts
and turned their backs, not their faces, to me.
From the day that your fathers left the land of Egypt even to this day,
I have sent you untiringly all my servants the prophets.
Yet they have not obeyed me nor paid heed;
they have stiffened their necks and done worse than their fathers.
When you speak all these words to them,
they will not listen to you either;
when you call to them, they will not answer you.
Say to them:
This is the nation that does not listen
to the voice of the LORD, its God,
or take correction.
Faithfulness has disappeared;
the word itself is banished from their speech.

 

[Seeker1961]

Seeker, I don’t have a problem with people asking questions,or trying to understand why we believe what we believe, but when they are mocking our faith or putting it down, I have a problem with it. I don’t comprised with the truth like you might, I have learned that the church of nice isn’t how we win souls. We have to be militant in our belief and some people on here are trying to persuade people in an uncharitable way to question the Catholic Church. Maybe you don’t have a problem because of your own personal situation, but I do. Some people like hiding behind these web sites to just try an antagonize people because of there own unhappiness. I will continue to defend our faith. The faith our Lord died for.
GB

Whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do unto Me.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

 

[JackyB]

I’m going to use this post as an example. You are certainly not the only one who responds to non-Catholics and non-believers this way-it’s something I have seen many times here and I think it needs to be addressed.

This is an internet forum. People of all types wander in here and read. When someone posts something that disagrees with our faith, how should we handle that? Should we tell them they that are not welcome or should we welcome their curiosity and try to bring them to an understanding of why we believe what we do. If we push people away because they don’t share our faith, and accuse them of trying to “undermine” us, what kind of witness is that to God? If your faith is solid, an internet poster shouldn’t be able to undermine it anyway. These are opportunities for us to share the truths of our faith, be welcoming to the curious and show people a different side of Catholics than what they see in the media.

This forum might be the one journey someone takes to see what Catholics are like. What image do we want to portray to those people?

I fully agree with you but would like to add that even when we disagree with fellow catholics we can be as equally as understanding and gracious. I think you have a tiny bit of the rebel inside you Seeker so don’t take away that bit off your profile

 

[Seeker1961]

I fully agree with you but would like to add that even when we disagree with fellow catholics we can be as equally as understanding and gracious. I think you have a tiny bit of the rebel inside you Seeker so don’t take away that bit off your profile

I did choose to take it away-only because I was getting too many questions about it. I definitely have a rebel streak that will probably never go away, but I had started to feel that it was not a good idea. The Catholic church is ONE, and I don’t want to be encouraging division in any way.

 

[speakttruth]

Whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do unto Me.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Yes you should do that.

God Bless

 

[Seeker1961]

Yes you should do that.

I should do that? Should we ALL not do that?

I read over and over here about how upset Catholics are with the media that slanders them, with people who disagree with them and how rude they are…and at the SAME time I see people here slandering non-Catholics, name-calling and using degrading language to refer to any public figure or group they disagree with.

If we want people to respect us, to treat us with dignity, and speak about us charitably-we MUST do that for others. We should be the example of charity in speech-no matter how much we disagree with another person. Even if we are insulted, or spoken to uncharitably-we are called to respond with charity.

I’m not suggesting that we water anything down or lie…I’m only saying that we too often get caught up in our zealousness to defend the truth and forget about treating others with charity.

 

[silentfactor80]

Oh boy, this is Pat Roberston territory we’re entering.

I would like to see some proof that God destroyed Sodom.

There was a whole documentary on the TLC about how looking at ice cores and Biblical data an asteroid hit the Earth around the time Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.

 

[BMorel]

Personally, I agree with you. I expect the United States to fail in an oh-so-spectacular fashion. Any when it does, all the advocates will say that their views had absolutely nothing to do with it >_>

Who knows though. God is infinitely merciful as well as infinitely just. Maybe he will accept the pleas of those of us who are trying to live His will, fail though we may. We’re not down to the point where we can’t even find one good person… yet…

If He does accept our pleas, do you think it will change anything? I for one welcome the fall. I want every non believer to see that it truely was their pride that brought it on. This country (and FYI, I serve in the military to defend it) makes me sick. It is NOT the country I grew up in and not the country I grew to love. Pro Deo et Patria. Not me, not anymore (the pro patria part just to clarify).

Sorry if this is offensive to anyone, it is not my intent, but a country that has fallen such as ours has needs to be wiped clean and started anew.

 

[silentfactor80]

If He does accept our pleas, do you think it will change anything? I for one welcome the fall. I want every non believer to see that it truely was their pride that brought it on. This country (and FYI, I serve in the military to defend it) makes me sick. It is NOT the country I grew up in and not the country I grew to love. Pro Deo et Patria. Not me, not anymore (the pro patria part just to clarify).

Sorry if this is offensive to anyone, it is not my intent, but a country that has fallen such as ours has needs to be wiped clean and started anew.

Agreed bro!

 

[davidv]

If He does accept our pleas, do you think it will change anything? I for one welcome the fall. I want every non believer to see that it truely was their pride that brought it on. This country (and FYI, I serve in the military to defend it) makes me sick. It is NOT the country I grew up in and not the country I grew to love. Pro Deo et Patria. Not me, not anymore (the pro patria part just to clarify).

Sorry if this is offensive to anyone, it is not my intent, but a country that has fallen such as ours has needs to be wiped clean and started anew.

Won’t happen. Jesus promised the the wheat will grow with the weeds until the end of time. Then justice will be served.