Unity in the Eucharist?

[Harry1941]

There have been more than a few threads that concern the unity of Christians. And while the topic has been addressed in these threads it is for the most part brushed aside. Attemptes are usually made to define the minimal standards on which all Christians must agree; the Trinity, belief in Jesus as one’s Savior, acceptance of God’s grace, etc…

It occurs to me, however, that the Catholic Church does not claim the doctrine of the Trinity as the source and summit of its faith, but rather the Eucharist. Yet this, most important of all things Christian, according to Catholic belief, is so easily dismissed. It is my contention that there will never be unity between Christians until there is unity in belief and practice of the Eucharist. It is, after all, the purpose of the Eucharist; to bring unity between God and man in Jesus Christ, which is the entire mission of the Church.

Is this a deal breaker as far as your faith tradition is concerned?

Receiving Holy Communion signifies charity and faith in man from the Lord. The bread was the first thing the Lord gave to His Disciples, Bread signifies charity or love. The wine was given second. Wine signifies faith or truth. The bead was given first because charity is greater tham faith.

How can one recieve Holy Communion, when their hearts of fill of abominations. There are Catholics who have a habit of sinning and going to confession, and receive Holy Communion. They keep doing the same sins, and think everything is ok by going to confession. These Catholics are external in worship. They worship with the mouth, and not the with the heart. To worship with the heart is internal, which means, with the spirit.

Harry

 

[aidanbradypop]

Receiving Holy Communion signifies charity and faith in man from the Lord. The bread was the first thing the Lord gave to His Disciples, Bread signifies charity or love. The wine was given second. Wine signifies faith or truth. The bead was given first because charity is greater tham faith.

How can one recieve Holy Communion, when their hearts of fill of abominations. There are Catholics who have a habit of sinning and going to confession, and receive Holy Communion. They keep doing the same sins, and think everything is ok by going to confession. These Catholics are external in worship. They worship with the mouth, and not the with the heart. To worship with the heart is internal, which means, with the spirit.

Harry

A tad judgemental are we? We are sinners. If we could aim once and never do that sin again, then there would be no need for confession and repentance. Right? I try to reframe from casting judgment on someone in fear that the same will be given back to me.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I just did a search. Out of 2012/2013 threads, the term “uniatism” comes up in a number of threads; but the only thread that could be considered about uniatism is the thread “Balamand Statement not authoritative?” (Note that the full title of the Balamand Statement is “Uniatism, method of union of the past, and the present search for full communion.”)

Peter,
Thanks for the link. I read through the thread. Guess I should check that section of the forum more often. I spend most of my time in the non-Catholic section.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Receiving Holy Communion signifies charity and faith in man from the Lord. The bread was the first thing the Lord gave to His Disciples, Bread signifies charity or love. The wine was given second. Wine signifies faith or truth. The bead was given first because charity is greater tham faith.

How can one recieve Holy Communion, when their hearts of fill of abominations. There are Catholics who have a habit of sinning and going to confession, and receive Holy Communion. They keep doing the same sins, and think everything is ok by going to confession. These Catholics are external in worship. They worship with the mouth, and not the with the heart. To worship with the heart is internal, which means, with the spirit.

Harry

Harry,

I appreciate hearing your beliefs about the Holy Eucharist. However, there is no good reason to pass such a judgement on Catholics. I can’t imagine any Church, in which no one “worships with the mouth and not with the heart.” I think it is safe to say that many of us are guilty of this to some degree at certain times. Though, I really don’t know anyone who intentionally uses Communion in such a way.

Singling out Catholics and passing judgment is uncharitable, not to mention the risk involved in passing judgement on the “heart” of others. Only God knows the heart. Only God has the authority to judge. A question to ponder: How do you think God would view your taking Communion just after passing judgment on Catholics? Is your “mouth” and “heart” in the right place? Obviously, I don’t know the answer. Only God knows. Just food for thought.

Anna

 

[Peter_J]

Receiving Holy Communion signifies charity and faith in man from the Lord. The bread was the first thing the Lord gave to His Disciples, Bread signifies charity or love. The wine was given second. Wine signifies faith or truth. The bead was given first because charity is greater tham faith.

How can one recieve Holy Communion, when their hearts of fill of abominations. There are Catholics who have a habit of sinning and going to confession, and receive Holy Communion. They keep doing the same sins, and think everything is ok by going to confession. These Catholics are external in worship. They worship with the mouth, and not the with the heart. To worship with the heart is internal, which means, with the spirit.

Harry

As Anna pointed out, it doesn’t make any sense to single out Catholics. After all, even Christians who have no sacrament of confession/reconciliation can still commit the same sins over and over, each time “repenting” and figuring that makes it all fine.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Isaiah45_9;

1381 “That in this sacrament are the true Body of Christ and his true Blood is something that ‘cannot be apprehended by the senses,’ says St. Thomas, ‘but only by faith, which relies on divine authority.’ For this reason, in a commentary on Luke 22:19 (‘This is my body which is given for you.’), St. Cyril says: ‘Do not doubt whether this is true, but rather receive the words of the Savior in faith, for since he is the truth, he cannot lie.’

It is easy to say I believe this to be the body and blood of our Lord, but having faith and trusting this to be true is more difficult. A few years ago there was an outbreak of bird flu, and the cup was withdrawn to prevent any possible contamination being passed on.

If we truly trusted the wine to be the Blood of our Lord, then we would not worry about bird flu.

When it comes to unity in the Eucharist, there is only ONE Lord Jesus, and he cannot be divided.

 

[Jaysuitical]

There have been more than a few threads that concern the unity of Christians. And while the topic has been addressed in these threads it is for the most part brushed aside. Attemptes are usually made to define the minimal standards on which all Christians must agree; the Trinity, belief in Jesus as one’s Savior, acceptance of God’s grace, etc…

It occurs to me, however, that the Catholic Church does not claim the doctrine of the Trinity as the source and summit of its faith, but rather the Eucharist. Yet this, most important of all things Christian, according to Catholic belief, is so easily dismissed. It is my contention that there will never be unity between Christians until there is unity in belief and practice of the Eucharist. It is, after all, the purpose of the Eucharist; to bring unity between God and man in Jesus Christ, which is the entire mission of the Church.

Is this a deal breaker as far as your faith tradition is concerned?

The Church teaches that all Three Divine Persons act in concert, but not in the same manner. Without this operation & co-operation, the sacraments of the Church would not be produced by God’s unity nor could produce unity. The Holy Trinity is of course the source and the summit, but the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in which Our Lord is made present through the consecration of the elements is the summit of our sacramental life – all graces flow through this channel. The Father sends & receives the sacrifice of the Son, who is made incarnate of the Holy Spirit through the Theotokos, Mother of God, and who in turn is received, bestowed, and lives in us as we are in grace.
Our divine life is the life of the Blessed Trinity. Source, summit, root, branch, down to the smallest trickle of grace.

 

[Anna_Scott]

It is easy to say I believe this to be the body and blood of our Lord, but having faith and trusting this to be true is more difficult. A few years ago there was an outbreak of bird flu, and the cup was withdrawn to prevent any possible contamination being passed on.

If we truly trusted the wine to be the Blood of our Lord, then we would not worry about bird flu.

When it comes to unity in the Eucharist, there is only ONE Lord Jesus, and he cannot be divided.

Eric,

Actually, that is a very good point; but what about the cup from which we drink the Blood of Christ? I realize this questions is a product of many years in the healthcare profession.

Our Rector certainly has no worries, as he must consume the remaining Blood of Christ after everyone has shared the Cup in Communion.

Anna

 

[JonNC]

Receiving Holy Communion signifies charity and faith in man from the Lord. The bread was the first thing the Lord gave to His Disciples, Bread signifies charity or love. The wine was given second. Wine signifies faith or truth. The bead was given first because charity is greater tham faith.

How can one recieve Holy Communion, when their hearts of fill of abominations. There are Catholics who have a habit of sinning and going to confession, and receive Holy Communion. They keep doing the same sins, and think everything is ok by going to confession. These Catholics are external in worship. They worship with the mouth, and not the with the heart. To worship with the heart is internal, which means, with the spirit.

Harry

Hi Harry,
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

This applies to all of us, Catholics no more and no less than any others.

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

The very gift of the sacrament of Holy Absolution (confession), what Catholics call Reconciliation, is grace made available to us, even though we sin.
St Paul reflects upon this in Romans 7:

15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. **24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! **So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

How can one recieve Holy Communion, when their hearts of fill of abominations.

They shouldn’t.

There are Catholics who have a habit of sinning and going to confession, and receive Holy Communion.

Yes, every Catholic, hopefully, goes to confession when they sin and then they go to receive Christ in the Eucharist. That is the correct order. We ask for God’s mercy and forgiveness through the sacrament of Reconciliation. When we have been forgiven, when our souls have been made clean once again, we then approach the living Christ in the Eucharist and become reunited with him.

They keep doing the same sins, and think everything is ok by going to confession.

What do you do? Or are you without sin?

These Catholics are external in worship. They worship with the mouth, and not the with the heart. To worship with the heart is internal, which means, with the spirit.

Wow, how long have you had the gift of reading other’s hearts?

 

[SteveVH]

The Church teaches that all Three Divine Persons act in concert, but not in the same manner. Without this operation & co-operation, the sacraments of the Church would not be produced by God’s unity nor could produce unity. The Holy Trinity is of course the source and the summit, but the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in which Our Lord is made present through the consecration of the elements is the summit of our sacramental life – all graces flow through this channel.

Of course I understand that our ultimate destiny is to share in the life of the Trinity. But that is exactly what the Eucharist does. It allows us to share in the life of the Trinity while still here on earth. Where Jesus is, there are the Father and the Holy Spirit as well.

And while, indeed, the Eucharist is the source and summit of our sacramental life, as you say, it is also the source and summit of the Christian life to a much wider extent:

"The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life."136 “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.” (CCC par 1324)

The Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith precisely because it is Jesus Christ, God, whole and entire, who we encounter in the most intimate way possible, It’s heaven on earth.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Originally Posted by Eric Hyom

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
It is easy to say I believe this to be the body and blood of our Lord, but having faith and trusting this to be true is more difficult. A few years ago there was an outbreak of bird flu, and the cup was withdrawn to prevent any possible contamination being passed on.

If we truly trusted the wine to be the Blood of our Lord, then we would not worry about bird flu.

Anna Scott;

Eric,

Actually, that is a very good point; but what about the cup from which we drink the Blood of Christ? I realize this questions is a product of many years in the healthcare profession.

How did health and safety feature in the life of our Lord, Christ died that we might have this saving cup.

Our Rector certainly has no worries, as he must consume the remaining Blood of Christ after everyone has shared the Cup in Communion.

Anna

That does require faith and trust in our Lord, in the same way as the people who always sit at the back and take the cup.

How can we divide our Lord with our division after the suffering that he went through?

Blessings

Eric

 

[Anna_Scott]

How did health and safety feature in the life of our Lord, Christ died that we might have this saving cup.

That does require faith and trust in our Lord, in the same way as the people who always sit at the back and take the cup.

How can we divide our Lord with our division after the suffering that he went through?

Blessings

Eric

Eric,
Excellent point and I cannot disagree.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

SteveVH:
They shouldn’t.

Yes, every Catholic, hopefully, goes to confession when they sin and then they go to receive Christ in the Eucharist. That is the correct order. We ask for God’s mercy and forgiveness through the sacrament of Reconciliation. When we have been forgiven, when our souls have been made clean once again, we then approach the living Christ in the Eucharist and become reunited with him.

What do you do? Or are you without sin?

Wow, how long have you had the gift of reading other’s hearts?

Steve,
I know this was addressed to Harry; but wanted to comment. Excellent post, btw.

Confession, in true repentance, is a serious issue. I would point out to Harry that Absolution is not always granted. One of my best friends fell into an illicit affair. She was consumed by it. She went to our Rector for Confession. After talking with her, he asked her to examine her heart and intentions. He said he would not grant Absolution, unless she was truly repentant and willing to end the affair. She was honest enough to admit that she was not fully committed to ending it. No Absolution was granted. It took some time for her to end the affair. We had long discussions about it, and much prayer. She finally came to full repentance, ended the affair, went to Confession and was granted Absolution. I’d appreciate your comments on such a situation. I’m assuming a Catholic Priest might react in a similar way.

Anna

 

[MaryT777]

Steve,
I know this was addressed to Harry; but wanted to comment. Excellent post, btw.

Confession, in true repentance, is a serious issue. I would point out to Harry that Absolution is not always granted. One of my best friends fell into an illicit affair. She was consumed by it. She went to our Rector for Confession. After talking with her, he asked her to examine her heart and intentions. He said he would not grant Absolution, unless she was truly repentant and willing to end the affair. She was honest enough to admit that she was not fully committed to ending it. No Absolution was granted. It took some time for her to end the affair. We had long discussions about it, and much prayer. She finally came to full repentance, ended the affair, went to Confession and was granted Absolution. I’d appreciate your comments on such a situation. I’m assuming a Catholic Priest might react in a similar way.

Anna

Yes, a Catholic must have a firm purpose of amendment to stop the sin. I know of one instance where a penitent was denied Absolution for the Priest felt the person was simply
listing the sin without considering a firm puropse of amendment to change it.
He had an addiction problem which has been resolved and he has received absolution.

He said it was a lifechanging moment to be denied absolution as he states he realized
he had been so steeped in this sin he had come to not realize the gravity of it. That said it’s rare for people to disscuss the Sacrament of Reconciliation for it’s a very personal matter.

To Harry :Catholics could do a much better job of educating about the Sacrament for you are not the first to make such a statement regarding Catholics basically using the
“confessional” for a “get out of free” sin card to sin again and again. I’ve heard it before.
We rarely get an opportunity to explain it so I’m happy you posted your thoughts and hope the excellent answers helped explain in better.

First post I’ve seen of yours; Welcome to the Forums; hopefully reading some of we Catholics posts will help you understand better “where we’re coming from”
We openly confess we are sinful persons like everyone else.

Mary.

 

[Harry1941]

Harry,

I appreciate hearing your beliefs about the Holy Eucharist. However, there is no good reason to pass such a judgement on Catholics. I can’t imagine any Church, in which no one “worships with the mouth and not with the heart.” I think it is safe to say that many of us are guilty of this to some degree at certain times. Though, I really don’t know anyone who intentionally uses Communion in such a way.

Singling out Catholics and passing judgment is uncharitable, not to mention the risk involved in passing judgement on the “heart” of others. Only God knows the heart. Only God has the authority to judge. A question to ponder: How do you think God would view your taking Communion just after passing judgment on Catholics? Is your “mouth” and “heart” in the right place? Obviously, I don’t know the answer. Only God knows. Just food for thought.

Anna

Sorry I shouldn’t judge people.

 

[MaryT777]

Sorry I shouldn’t judge people.

No problem, Harry. I am glad you asked the question for i’ve been told that before and it gives us the chance to try to explain what we truly believe.

Stick around…
Mary.

 

[Harry1941]

SteveVH:
They shouldn’t.

Yes, every Catholic, hopefully, goes to confession when they sin and then they go to receive Christ in the Eucharist. That is the correct order. We ask for God’s mercy and forgiveness through the sacrament of Reconciliation. When we have been forgiven, when our souls have been made clean once again, we then approach the living Christ in the Eucharist and become reunited with him.

What do you do? Or are you without sin?

Wow, how long have you had the gift of reading other’s hearts?

Jesus said, Do not judge, but if you do judge, see that your judgement is true. I learn that Father Pio knew how to look into mens hearts. Harry

 

[MaryT777]

Jesus said, Do not judge, but if you do judge, see that your judgement is true. I learn that Father Pio knew how to look into mens hearts. Harry

Reported.

 

[MaryT777]

Harry, thanks for editing your post. I note from the time I reported the initial post you edited your post. I like the “new version.”

Mary.