Unity??

[diggerdomer]

Didn’t say this.Ditto.Let me explain whom and what I was addressing:

1. The self-described Evangelical OP, who apparently used the links to “prove” that despite having a Church with “authority”, and a “leader”, Catholics were still not united.
2. At least one of those links which the aforementioned OP listed (Catholicsforchoice.org) is a well known dissenting group of “Catholics”.

I neither know nor care what political party they may, or may not be associated with. The point is that they represent neither mainstream Catholicism, nor obedience to the Magisterium. That was my point, in case the OP was still around.

Thank you for clarifying. Sorry if I misunderstood you. I was just concerned that people are lumping anyone associated with any of the links posted in the same group (i.e. dissenting and/or non-Catholic) and I wanted to ensure no one thought the Church taught that simply being a Democrat or voting for Obama (what one or two of the links were referring to) means one is dissenting/excommunicated.

Thanks again for the clarification, sorry again if I misunderstood your post.

 

[po18guy]

Thank you for clarifying. Sorry if I misunderstood you. I was just concerned that people are lumping anyone associated with any of the links posted in the same group (i.e. dissenting and/or non-Catholic) and I wanted to ensure no one thought the Church taught that simply being a Democrat or voting for Obama (what one or two of the links were referring to) means one is dissenting/excommunicated.

Thanks again for the clarification, sorry again if I misunderstood your post.

Rather, from the recent election, it is painfully obvious that the Democrat party needs many more faithful Catholics. Its current platform is almost completely at odds with church teaching on the five moral non-negotiables. As well, the traditional stereotypes regarding the political parties are today only a fantasy.

Both parties have moved to the left, and both have insulted only themselves by doing so, IMO. As to whom Catholics voted for, that is between them and the Lord. I did not like either choice in the 2008 election, but denied myself and voted strictly on the basis of Church teaching on life. Nothing could be more important, and my vote reflected that.

Anyway, I will check to see if the OP has even been here since dropping the unity bomb. I don’t believe that he/she has been around. Too bad, as there is much to learn here.

 

[diggerdomer]

Rather, from the recent election, it is painfully obvious that the Democrat party needs many more faithful Catholics. Its current platform is almost completely at odds with church teaching on the five moral non-negotiables. As well, the traditional stereotypes regarding the political parties are today only a fantasy.

Both parties have moved to the left, and both have insulted only themselves by doing so, IMO. As to whom Catholics voted for, that is between them and the Lord. I did not like either choice in the 2008 election, but denied myself and voted strictly on the basis of Church teaching on life. Nothing could be more important, and my vote reflected that.

Anyway, I will check to see if the OP has even been here since dropping the unity bomb. I don’t believe that he/she has been around. Too bad, as there is much to learn here.

Thanks.

As an aside that may be tangential (and if so feel free to respond privately) I’d love to know more about the “five moral non-negotiables.” I’ve never heard this taught by the Catholic Church and if it’s authentic Catholic teaching (i.e. from the Magisterium) would benefit from knowing more about it.

 

[po18guy]

Abortion, euthanasia, embrryponic stem cell research, homosexual “marriage”, human cloning.

 

[diggerdomer]

Abortion, euthanasia, embrryponic stem cell research, homosexual “marriage”, human cloning.

Thanks, but where does the Catholic Church (Magisterium) identify these issues and only these issues as “the five non-negotiables”?

Especially as “embryonic stem cell research” is clearly NOT something the Church prohibits or teaches against across the board (it all depends on where the embryonic stem cells come from and how they’re obtained).

Thanks for any clarification.

 

[po18guy]

Thanks, but where does the Catholic Church (Magisterium) identify these issues and only these issues as “the five non-negotiables”?

Especially as “embryonic stem cell research” is clearly NOT something the Church prohibits or teaches against across the board (it all depends on where the embryonic stem cells come from and how they’re obtained).

Thanks for any clarification.

I started a new thread to address this.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5218034#post5218034

May peace be with you.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Thanks, but where does the Catholic Church (Magisterium) identify these issues and only these issues as “the five non-negotiables”?

Especially as “embryonic stem cell research” is clearly NOT something the Church prohibits or teaches against across the board (it all depends on where the embryonic stem cells come from and how they’re obtained).

Thanks for any clarification.

Based on your liberal tone in these forums Digger I am starting to get suspicious that you are a member of (or sympathizer of) the rabidly anti-Catholic group calling itself Catholics for Choice. This organization has been pushing anti-Catholic agendas for decades under a Catholic moniker. In past years it tried to attack Catholic Answers’ IRS non-profit/charity status for publishing a Catholics voter’s guide years ago – but it lost its derriere in the decision against them. CfC has been listed by at least one US bishop as a forbidden organization for Catholics in his diocese and orthodox Catholics have since found out that this anti-Catholic group is linked to liberal-secular funding sources such as Warren Buffet/Gates Foundation, Ford Foundation, Planned Parenthood and has among its founding members defrocked priests etc. and radical liberals. It is now active in a program called “pope watch” and is applying political pressure to the Catholic Church to criticize its teachings and change its policies as if it is its own moral authority. The USCCB has already made various statement that "[CFC] is not a Catholic organization, does not speak for the Catholic Church, and in fact promotes positions contrary to the teaching of the Church as articulated by the Holy See and the NCCB. So if you are advocating their anti-Catholic agenda you are in fact in direct opposition to The Catholic Church and are likely what some of have been saying all along - a member of a new denomination calling themselves Catholic who are in actuality a “Protestant-Catholic”. This is heterodox and has no standing within the Catholic Church nor is it in communion with us. You might do well to go talk to a priest if you voted for Obama since you might have excommunicated yourself if you consciously voted for him knowing he is pro-death in this policy area.

The list of non-negotiable moral isses are listed in the Voters Guide for Serious Catholics at this site: caaction.com/

This booklet gives clear and concise official Church statements on five issues that do have moral implications which Catholics can NOT support:

Abortion
Euthanasia
Embryonic stem-cell research
Human cloning
and homosexual “marriage”

These issues are “non-negotiable” when it comes to their moral standing—and Catholics must not compromise on these issues.

I know it will be an inconvenience for you to have to shell out the small fee to get a copy of the booklet but it lists all the teachings that underlay each of the non-negotiable points.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Digger you are in luck. I found a free copy of the voter’s guide online:
caaction.com/pdf/Voters-Guide-Catholic-English-1p.pdf

James

 

[diggerdomer]

Based on your liberal tone in these forums Digger I am starting to get suspicious that you are a member of (or sympathizer of) the rabidly anti-Catholic group calling itself Catholics for Choice. This organization has been pushing anti-Catholic agendas for decades under a Catholic moniker. In past years it tried to attack Catholic Answers’ IRS non-profit/charity status for publishing a Catholics voter’s guide years ago – but it lost its derriere in the decision against them. CfC has been listed by at least one US bishop as a forbidden organization for Catholics in his diocese and orthodox Catholics have since found out that this anti-Catholic group is linked to liberal-secular funding sources such as Warren Buffet/Gates Foundation, Ford Foundation, Planned Parenthood and has among its founding members defrocked priests etc. and radical liberals. It is now active in a program called “pope watch” and is applying political pressure to the Catholic Church to criticize its teachings and change its policies as if it is its own moral authority. The USCCB has already made various statement that "[CFC] is not a Catholic organization, does not speak for the Catholic Church, and in fact promotes positions contrary to the teaching of the Church as articulated by the Holy See and the NCCB. So if you are advocating their anti-Catholic agenda you are in fact in direct opposition to The Catholic Church and are likely what some of have been saying all along - a member of a new denomination calling themselves Catholic who are in actuality a “Protestant-Catholic”. This is heterodox and has no standing within the Catholic Church nor is it in communion with us. You might do well to go talk to a priest if you voted for Obama since you might have excommunicated yourself if you consciously voted for him knowing he is pro-death in this policy area.

The list of non-negotiable moral isses are listed in the Voters Guide for Serious Catholics at this site: caaction.com/

This booklet gives clear and concise official Church statements on five issues that do have moral implications which Catholics can NOT support:

Abortion
Euthanasia
Embryonic stem-cell research
Human cloning
and homosexual “marriage”

These issues are “non-negotiable” when it comes to their moral standing—and Catholics must not compromise on these issues.

I know it will be an inconvenience for you to have to shell out the small fee to get a copy of the booklet but it lists all the teachings that underlay each of the non-negotiable points.

James

Thank you for your help and charitable comments. I have seen that voter’s guide before, it’s an inadequate substitute for Church teaching. As I originally requested, I was looking from something from the Magisterium.

I’m not familiar with the group you refer to, thanks for the heads up about them though, you sound well-versed in their situation.

Again, thanks for your kindness.

 

[po18guy]

Thank you for your help and charitable comments. I have seen that voter’s guide before, it’s an inadequate substitute for Church teaching. As I originally requested, I was looking from something from the Magisterium.

I’m not familiar with the group you refer to, thanks for the heads up about them though, you sound well-versed in their situation.

Again, thanks for your kindness.

Go to www.USCCB.org That is where you will find all of the teachings on these subjects. If you need catechism sections, that will take a little longer. This is better discussed in the spin-off thread, wouldn’t you say? This thread looks like a hit and run question of Catholic unity, and while we may not be demonstrating much of it here, specific teachings are not germane to the subject of unity, per se.

 

[diggerdomer]

Go to www.USCCB.org That is where you will find all of the teachings on these subjects. If you need catechism sections, that will take a little longer. This is better discussed in the spin-off thread, wouldn’t you say? This thread looks like a hit and run question of Catholic unity, and while we may not be demonstrating much of it here, specific teachings are not germane to the subject of unity, per se.

Yes I’m familiar with the USCCB site, and that’s largely why I asked for more information on the alleged “five non-negotiables” because I was wondering if this was something the Church taught (and I suspect not, as it’s not on the USCCB or Vatican site) and I’d like more info from those who are familiar with same.

 

[Snerticus]

Timmy, there is unity in a family, yet does everyone in a family act, think, and say the same thing?

 

[po18guy]

Yes I’m familiar with the USCCB site, and that’s largely why I asked for more information on the alleged “five non-negotiables” because I was wondering if this was something the Church taught (and I suspect not, as it’s not on the USCCB or Vatican site) and I’d like more info from those who are familiar with same.

Here are some of the appropriate sections from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).

1. Abortion - sections 2268-2283, 2321-2326
2. Euthanasia - 2324
3. Embryonic stem cell research - sections 2273-2274, 2323
4. Homosexual “marriage” - sections 1659-1660, 1625-1632, 2333-2335
5. Human cloning - section 2258

For dissident Catholic voters, please note that war and the death penalty may be justified under limited circumstances, while none of the five issues listed above can ever be justified.

As an individual, one either:

1. Conforms their thinking to the Church
2. Conforms the Church to their thinking

While this may not be an easy choice, it has both temporal and eternal implications for all.

 

[diggerdomer]

Here are some of the appropriate sections from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).

1. Abortion - sections 2268-2283, 2321-2326
2. Euthanasia - 2324
3. Embryonic stem cell research - sections 2273-2274, 2323
4. Homosexual “marriage” - sections 1659-1660, 1625-1632, 2333-2335
5. Human cloning - section 2258

For dissident Catholic voters, please note that war and the death penalty may be justified under limited circumstances, while none of the five issues listed above can ever be justified.

As an individual, one either:

1. Conforms their thinking to the Church
2. Conforms the Church to their thinking

While this may not be an easy choice, it has both temporal and eternal implications for all.

So back to the question of someone saying “the five” non-negotiables. Are you saying those are the only (5) moral “non-negotiables”? I don’t think the Church does.

 

[po18guy]

So back to the question of someone saying “the five” non-negotiables. Are you saying those are the only (5) moral “non-negotiables”? I don’t think the Church does.

I believe that the origin of the exact list was with this very site, Catholic Answers. It was certainly not compiled without consultation with the Church. You appear to question the listing or ranking of the five, even though they are 100% solid Church teaching. Is there a better list?

In truth, it appears to me that everything you allege seems to be aimed at justifying your political affiliation or voting record. Please correct me if this is not so. Christ calls us to deny ourselves and to believe the truth as revealed to His Church, as much as we personally want to disagree with it. I had to sigh and vote for life. Nothing is more important to me.

 

[CentralFLJames]

So back to the question of someone saying “the five” non-negotiables. Are you saying those are the only (5) moral “non-negotiables”? I don’t think the Church does.

You seem determined to want to obfuscate and discredit Church teachings by clouding the topic and create false dilemmas to create false and morally illegal choices. Even if secular law permits such moral atrocities it will never relieve a person from their moral obligation to follow God’s Law. What you are doing here is using a common liberal tactic which plays into the general desire to secularize the Catholic Church and make it just another watered down denomination that can be negotiated with and marginalized in the political process and “managed” by political compromise and benefits payoffs.

These 5 topics are well defined and absolutes. And that is itself why the liberals hate them because they are absolute tenants and liberals do not like absolutes. Liberals want a moral relativism where individuals are free to use personal judgement to rationalize away any notion of objective truth.

Make no mistake about it we are in the middle of grave spiritual warfare and it seems to me that you appear to be on the wrong side - the side of compromise of objective truth to marginalize Catholic moral teaching and authority.

James

 

[diggerdomer]

Please correct me if this is not so.

It’s not so.

I object to reducing moral teaching to five non-negotiables, I think it’s important to adhere to and recognize ALL Church teaching, not some arbitrary five (there are, of course, many more non-negotiables than the 5 listed).

 

[diggerdomer]

You seem determined to want to obfuscate and discredit Church teachings by clouding the topic and create false dilemmas to create false and morally illegal choices.

No, I’m objecting to what I see as a compromise by those who would reduce Catholic moral teaching to “five non-negotiables” or some other arbitrary list that is not taught as such by the Church.

If that’s obfuscation, advocating for the entire body of Catholic moral teaching, so be it.

 

[CentralFLJames]

It’s not so.

I object to reducing moral teaching to five non-negotiables, I think it’s important to adhere to and recognize ALL Church teaching, not some arbitrary five (there are, of course, many more non-negotiables than the 5 listed).

Have you bothered to consider that these 5 are the only ones on the political table as active political platforms that they are trying to force down Catholics throats at this time? It would pointless to re-publish the full Catechism as a Voter Guide when the political agendas are only deliberately hitting certain key areas. The Voter Guide is a current hot-topic list for Catholics that the sleazy politicians are currently trying to chip away at to undermine Catholic moral teachings. There will more in the future if they gain these.

The current political agenga and platforms are a deliberate cold and calculated plan to undermine Catholic moral teachings. In case you have not noticed The Catholic Church has been under direct attack by secular governments ever since the time of the Protestant Revolution. The USA was founded by rebellious Protestants fleeing the rule of other Protestants (how brilliant to get rid of the pope to make the king the head of the church only to get rid of the kings). If we let them win on these topics it escalates and it goes to “hell on earth” faster than you can imagine when the active persecution of Christians and especially Catholics starts up.

Look at history to see what happens when a civilization votes away its economic and moral restraint. It’s bloody and not pretty. The good news is The Church never completely looses and God destroys her enemies. No, but is just suffers tremendously and reseeds itself for the next generation after those cultures all collapse. The Catholic Church is ancient and has outlived most all other nations and governments and will continue to do so. But it would be ironic indeed if Satan was able to use a Democracy to have people freely vote in Evil. That is a huge win for Him. If we slide much further down the moral slope it will mean Democracy is warn out and is a failed political experiment. I won’t go any further on this sub-topic except to say that a democracy fails when it can learn to vote to raid the piggy bank under a guide of moral imperative at the same time it becomes corrupted with a complete loss of moral restraint and common shared values.

James