Universae Ecclesiae

[laszlo]

romereports.com/palio/modules.php?name=News&file=print&newlang=english&sid=4123

1. Ordinaries are asked to offer their clergy the possibility of acquiring adequate preparation for celebrations in the forma extraordinaria. This applies also to Seminaries, where future priests should be given proper formation, including study of Latin8 and, where pastoral needs suggest it, the opportunity to learn the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite.

 

[ProVobis]

wdtprs.com/blog/2011/05/released-instruction-universae-ecclesiae-the-text-and-my-initial-observations

 

[NPC]

As Fr. Z. commented, the instruction is overall very good. However, I do agree with him that the section on training in seminaries is probably the weakest point. “Asked” and “should be” does not inspire confidence - especially for me, when I consider the present state of the seminary system in Ireland. However, an encouraging point that Fr. Z. makes is that the new generation of seminarians is a “Summorum Pontificum” generation! We hope in Ireland that the recent Apostolic Visitation will bring about change in the seminary, but it is also true that change will have to come from the bottom up, as well as from the top down - hopefully, a new, enthusiastic “Summorum Pontificum” generation of seminarians will play a major role in bringing about this change.

Overall, I am extremely grateful to the Holy Father and the Ecclesia Dei commission for this document - as Fr. Z. rightly states, it can no longer be doubted that “Ecclesia Dei” and Summorum Pontificum really are a part of the Church’s life!

 

[malphono]

Overall, I have to agree with Fr Z that the Instruction is, in general, quite favorable. It’s not “100%” but it’s more than reasonable and acceptable.

On a side note, I recall that there was some fear initially that the present Instruction would specifically exclude the non-Roman territorial Latin Rites, and I find it interesting that no mention is made of same. That leads me to think that the letter of the PCED from 2009 was considered clear enough confirmation that SP applies to them as well.

 

[laszlo]

As Fr. Z. commented, the instruction is overall very good. However, I do agree with him that the section on training in seminaries is probably the weakest point.

There is an old adagium: ‘Do not force, what cannot be done.’

For celebrating the TLM the priest must be able to pronounce the words and to understand what he is reading. This level is achievable by a two semester course, which is provided in almost every seminary.

Any deeper level would require immersion to the Latin, requiring the lectures, discussions, and tests in Latin, for significant part of the courses, as it was in the good old times. I sincerely doubt that there are teachers capable for this.

 

[NPC]

There is an old adagium: ‘Do not force, what cannot be done.’

For celebrating the TLM the priest must be able to pronounce the words and to understand what he is reading. This level is achievable by a two semester course, which is provided in almost every seminary.

Any deeper level would require immersion to the Latin, requiring the lectures, discussions, and tests in Latin, for significant part of the courses, as it was in the good old times. I sincerely doubt that there are teachers capable for this.

Yes, there’s no doubt about that. I mean, the Holy Father couldn’t have ordered that from next September onwards all seminaries are to offer extensive training in the Latin language and the Extraordinary Form…It simply wouldn’t work at this stage. But it is something that seminaries should be preparing for.

However, my fear would be that the use of words such as “should” or “are asked to” will not be strong enough encouragement to seminary authorities to provide for the teaching of the E.F. down the line. We’ve seen what happened when the clergy were told that Gregorian chant, for example, “should” be given pride of place - far from encouraging the use of Gregorian chant, many saw it as a carte-blanche to suppress it. So let’s hope that our bishops and seminary rectors interpret the word “should” in the way that Pope Benedict does!

 

[Monica4316]

Overall it is good news!

wdtprs.com/blog/2011/05/released-instruction-universae-ecclesiae-the-text-and-my-initial-observations/

 

[Cristiano]

There is an old adagium: ‘Do not force, what cannot be done.’

For celebrating the TLM the priest must be able to pronounce the words and to understand what he is reading. This level is achievable by a two semester course, which is provided in almost every seminary.

Any deeper level would require immersion to the Latin, requiring the lectures, discussions, and tests in Latin, for significant part of the courses, as it was in the good old times. I sincerely doubt that there are teachers capable for this.

That is why all the Catholic schools should have a Latin program to prepare aspiring seminarians. I am very sensitive to this topic because this morning I had to get up earlier than planned to help my son with his Latin homework. I do that because I can see the greater good that comes out of the evil of getting up two hours earlier.

 

[BenedictOblate]

I think if anybody is taking sides on the issue, both sides will be disappointed.

It appears that the Holy Father is trying to regain our Catholic heritage by nurturing instruction in the EF, but he is simultaneously, and somewhat subtly, attempting to regain a greater sense of reverence in the English version of the OF with the new translation.

What was lost by some after Vatican II was a sense of reverence before God. The direction our Holy Father is taking is toward greater reverence in the presence of the divine in both the EF and OF.

Sometimes I think we worry too much about Vatican II. It is just a little bump in the road in the history of the Church and minor bump at that. 50 years in the scope of 2000 is fairly insignificant. Clearly there have been much greater issues in our history. This seems like a minor disagreement; a petty squabble. We just make it a big issue since we are living it and don’t maintain perspective.

Our popes have had the wisdom to direct the faithful and to give us the understanding and emphasis regarding our faith that we’ve needed in the time we lived. Vatican II provided us the spiritual nourishment we needed at the time and now the emphasis is on regaining a sense of reverence.

 

[Joe_5859]

For those who want to read the entire document from the source:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/rc_com_ecclsdei_doc_20110430_istr-universae-ecclesiae_en.html

Good stuff.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Who cares what it says about Seminaries? The Dominican Rite is officially preserved from death, so all is well.

This instruction is very good, as far as I’m concerned. Don’t ask for everything at once. The holy Mass will never pass away from the world, at least until it is all consummated at the end of time. Let’s give all this political maneuvering a rest for just a minute and be thankful to God for everything He has given us through Benedict XVI!!

 

[ProVobis]

Any deeper level would require immersion to the Latin, requiring the lectures, discussions, and tests in Latin, for significant part of the courses, as it was in the good old times. I sincerely doubt that there are teachers capable for this.

Latin is also taught at more and more universities, high schools, and even grade schools. True, there is a shortage of teachers but another adage should apply: Where there is a will, there’s a way.

However, my fear would be that the use of words such as “should” or “are asked to” will not be strong enough encouragement to seminary authorities to provide for the teaching of the E.F. down the line.

I wouldn’t worry about the strength of the words from one document. (Ecclesia Dei was a decree and where did that go?) Translations tend to dilute meanings and strength. As long as the idea is reinforced, that itself makes it stronger.

 

[ProVobis]

It appears that the Holy Father is trying to regain our Catholic heritage by nurturing instruction in the EF, but he is simultaneously, and somewhat subtly, attempting to regain a greater sense of reverence in the English version of the OF with the new translation.

I don’t see anything about English specifically in the document. If anything, it restricts the vernacular-only readings to the Low Mass.

 

[BenedictOblate]

I don’t see anything about English specifically in the document.

I was referring to the new English translation of the Roman Missal that will be introduced to the US churches this Advent. It more carefully follows the language of the Latin version of the OF. It should definitely be more reverent.

For instance:

Instead of the current:

P - The Lord Be With You.
C - And Also With You.

we will see:

P - The Lord Be With You
C - And With Your Spirit.

There are many positive changes with translations that are less in “the spirit” of the words and more literal.

This is good for the US church.

 

[ProVobis]

There are many positive changes with translations that are less in “the spirit” of the words and more literal.

More literal would be “Lord with you” but we’re getting off-topic. The document, intended for the entire Church, has nothing to do with the one-of-many translations of the OF.

 

[Jesus_123]

+The miraculous . . . St. John Cantius Parish Church . . . in Chicago here in the United States . . . has developed a marvelous tutorial for priests re the Extraordinary Form of the . . . Holy Prayer of the Mass . . . they celebrate . . . with breathtaking extraordinary reverence and holiness . . . the beauty of both the Extraordinary Form (EF) and the Ordinary Form (OF) at **St. John’s **. . . and their tutorial is really quite marvelous . . . and their parish church is an absolute miracle of a revived . . . restored . . . thriving . . . growing large family of God’s children who have embraced and celebrate both the EF and OF of the **Holy Mass **. . . the seminaries could take lessons from this church . . . who have richly proven . . . beyond a shadow of a doubt . . . that God richly blesses the EF being celebrated among His people in our day and age . . .

:compcoff: Link for Language Preference: sanctamissa.org/

:compcoff: Link for English Language: sanctamissa.org/en/

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Dear Lord+
. . . our Holy Blessed Saviour+
+ Praise God from Whom All Blessings Flow +
:harp:​

 

[BenedictOblate]

More literal would be “Lord with you” but we’re getting off-topic. The document, intended for the entire Church, has nothing to do with the one-of-many translations of the OF.

True. That is literal. I hope God doesn’t condemn us for the use of articles. Nobody would have a chance.

The point of my post is to suggest that the former translation of the RM for the OF may be considered less reverent due to some subtle word choices. Language that better conveys reverence is more in line with our Catholic heritage. By having the OF and EF available in parishes AND to have a translation of the OF that informs the faithful of the US church about the reverence due the Eucharist is, in my opinion, a very positive thing.

True the document is intended for the entire church, but I think it more than mere coincidence that this document is released at a time when the english speaking church is preparing to implement a more faithful translation of the OF.

The Catholic Church is bigger than any rite or form and I think a return to reverence brings us closer together. Increasing divisions would, in my opinion, be the work of the evil one.

 

[ProVobis]

True the document is intended for the entire church, but I think it more than mere coincidence that this document is released at a time when the english speaking church is preparing to implement a more faithful translation of the OF.

Someone who attends only the Polish or Spanish OF Mass wouldn’t see any such connection. To that person, changing the English translation of the Latin OF wouldn’t matter at all.

 

[ANNE_2]

For those who want to read the entire document from the source:

%between%http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...doc_20110430_istr-universae-ecclesiae_en.html

Good stuff.

Everyone should consider emailing this link to their Parish Priests.
press.catholica.va/news_services/bulletin/news/27407.php?index=27407&lang=en#TRADUZIONE%20IN%20LINGUA%20INGLESE

Click on LINGUA INGLESE for English.

 

[Lormar]

True. That is literal. I hope God doesn’t condemn us for the use of articles. Nobody would have a chance.

The point of my post is to suggest that the former translation of the RM for the OF may be considered less reverent due to some subtle word choices. Language that better conveys reverence is more in line with our Catholic heritage. By having the OF and EF available in parishes AND to have a translation of the OF that informs the faithful of the US church about the reverence due the Eucharist is, in my opinion, a very positive thing.

True the document is intended for the entire church, but I think it more than mere coincidence that this document is released at a time when the english speaking church is preparing to implement a more faithful translation of the OF.

The Catholic Church is bigger than any rite or form and I think a return to reverence brings us closer together.Increasing divisions would, in my opinion, be the work of the evil one.

I agree, especially with your last sentence.