Universal Health Care

[nancit]

You already have a form dressed up socialism. It’s people like you who want to remove it (labour laws, social security etc) all so you don’t have to pay $10 an hour or overtime. Who has more of an agenda?

First, I am going to assume you have never owned or ran a business of your own…because if you did, you would understand how much it costs an employer to EMPLOY someone. And you bet…I have an agenda…to get government OUT of our lives and make our country a more prosperous and productive one!

Imposing pay scales without knowing how much it costs EVERY business to do business…is ridiculous and all it does is cause the employer to 1) pass an increase on to their customers 2) limit the number of employees a company will hire 3) limit any other benefits such as bonuses or incentive programs that an employer may want to offer…huring EVERY employee!

On the other hand…an employer knows what it can afford to pay its employees…and the potential employee knows what pay he/she needs to earn…if an employer offers an employee less then he/she is willing to accept…then the answer is simple…don’t work there. Eventually, the employer will be forced to increase the pay because they will be unable to find workers willing to take pay that is considered to be “too low”. Its a basic principle of supply and demand…it does just work for products and goods sold…it also works for labor!

Good on you. Not everyone can or should be expected to own their own business or attain an upper management position by 40, if that’s what is being implied.

What is being implied by you…is that it can’t be done! I just demonstrated that it can be…even when the odds are against you. As for how far one takes it…that is up to the individual, it is called personal responsibility and accountability!

You realize that you did benefit from ‘socialist’ labour laws while working as a waitress and in an entry level office job, right?

I didn’t benefit from any such laws…in fact, if anything I was HURT by them…because I was forced to pay taxes on tips…even when I may not have earned them! As for what I was paid…I agreed to do a job for an employer willing to pay me for doing such…likewise, I provided a service to the employers customers and when done well, I rceived extra pay from the customers in the form of a tip. It was an agreement between ME, the EMPLOYER and the CUSTOMER…the government had NOTHING to do with it!

Degrees aren’t free.

Yes, I know…I am paying for mine as we speak. But the point is, there are programs of all sorts available to assist those who want to further their educations. And ummm…public school is “free” for everyone…no one is prevented from attending public school and no…they aren’t really free either…because WE, have to pay for them via our taxes…whether we have children attending them or NOT! So over the years, I have not only paid for my own degrees, but I have also and continue to, assist many, many others through my payment of taxes, to complete at the very least, their elementary, middle school, high school and even college degrees. STATE colleges accept taxes!!!

I didn’t say most, I said “not everyone”. That’s insulting? Talk about misrepresentation…

You implied that anyone who works for $10/hr or less is too stupid to do anything else. I argue with you…that many of those are kids who choose to work parttime to earn spending cash while they go to school…some are housewives, who only want to work parttime because they care for their families the rest of the time…some are working a second job simply to earn extra cash…some are retirees looking simply to spend their days doing something rather than sitting at home…and on and on…rarely do people work for $10/hr as a CAREER choice! Those jobs have the highest turn-over rates…because people do not choose to stay for years on end as a “greeter” at Walmart!

By the way…since you live in New Zealand…can you tell us what makes you an “expert” on American education, labor or pretty much anything else here?? Are you an American?? Have you ever lived and worked here?

 

[heaven_help_me]

Not only does the federal government want to run our health care system it wants to force volunteering at their discretion and hold student loans over the heads of students to do this. The bill is HR1388 and has passed the House on March 17 while everyone was out drinking green beer. I encourage everyone to read this bill. This administration is overstepping the constitution in so many ways, and they are doing it right under our noses. Hide in plain sight. We are in an economic crisis and the answer is to give money to Mexico to perform abortions and to researcher for embryonic research, money I might add, that the tax payers could use. The federal government should be tightening their belt, like the tax payer is being forced to do, instead it is giving out money as if it is unlimited. I guess when you run out you just print more, because there is no gold standard to back it up. May God have mercy on all of us.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I feel we are being sold out,that someone wants us to fail, so we can all be one happy family under some other government. It could be it has already happened but of course we will be the last to know.Look at all the country’s involved with the banking and stocks and industry’s Why? because this country went abroad a long time ago and now we reap what we sow Gal. 6:8 Seeds of the flesh.Greed, plain Greed. If you want this country to be the way it usto be it will take the biggest miracal God has ever done.And he can do it if Jer. 3:22 Hope is the answer! love of Christ (In where my hope comes) Nancy

 

[Oscarthecat]

Middle class and wealthy Americans are selfish for putting their material needs first before thinking of others. I’m glad for unselfish Americans, who are not afraid to help others.

Its good that some Christians are willing to pay taxes to help others. The selfish Americans want all taxes for bombs and weapons, but not Health Care. I think this is selfish.

Think about how you define “selfish” and “unselfish.”

Do you think that taxation and wealth redistribution are the same as charity?

You’re being charitable when you give to the poor for no other reason than your sincere desire to love your fellow man. You’re being charitable when you freely choose to give financial support to those organizations and groups you believe will help the poor.

You’re not being charitable when you pay your taxes because you don’t have a choice but to pay your taxes. If you don’t pay your taxes, then you will lose your property or your freedom.

And you’re certainly not not being charitable when you use the force of government to take from one person and give to another.

You really need to come to terms with how your confusing taxes and charity inflicts tremendous harm on society. The people you steal from (by taxing them) will inevitably grow to resent you and the people you’re giving their money to. That resentment is manifest in the growing sense that people don’t want to give to charity freely anymore because they feel they are being abused by the government in the name of charity.

If you want to help the poor, then get out there and do it.
But don’t hold a gun to my head and tell me I’m being charitable as you reach for my wallet.

It doesn’t matter if you’re ultimate goal is to feed the poor, heal the sick, or provide shelter to the needy- it means nothing if you have to do it at the point of a gun.

 

[Toughguy]

cynic;5227636]

One where there’s no Social Security. For example someone who’s worked as mechanic all their lives gets to 66, their body is wrecked, and their savings won’t support them.

How did we do it hundreds and thousands of years before SS? But ok, would you favor SS to be voluntary then?

It’s still socialism. Each taxpayer didn’t give their consent to pay for this. The interest is lower than the equivalent from a bank.

Loans are socialistic? The point is, is that it is not a freebie. I support the SBA to, because they are loans. Also, more people like me would support loans to help people become independant from government, rather than other programs that entitle specific groups to become dependant on it.

I don’t know much about trade apprenticeships in the U.S, but a quick wikipedia points to them being offered through unions, a third party.

That is correct.

It depends on what he’s paying him in the first place. You might say the same about sweat shop labour - why should they demand higher wages blah blah.

And in this country, private citizens corrected that issue. They unionized. Then the rich unions, bought politicians.

Overtime is a socialist labour law, one this 40 hour week guy wouldn’t be getting if his employer were at liberty not to offer it.

Well that’s good for YOU, aint it. To be a citizen of a county, is not limited to workers or poor people. But you don’t care about that, do you? In the US, my country was designed to protect the people from a government, not to give the government power over certain people. That is what my Founders were avoiding when they built this nation.

How many people of normal intelligence still don’t have a grasp of the issues?

Per our last election, about 65 million people.

youtube.com/watch?v=mm1KOBMg1Y8

youtube.com/watch?v=JUP9Jm9SqvY

youtube.com/watch?v=DI5c0Da3Cm0&feature=related

In a competitve job market differences in intelligence are going to be apparent.

Not so. There are a ton of people who graduate from college, who have very limited intelligence.

Does that mean that aborbing and understanding of information is beyond *every *adult below a certain income?

Nope.

 

[Toughguy]

soma;5228515]

Middle class and wealthy Americans are selfish for putting their material needs first before thinking of others. I’m glad for unselfish Americans, who are not afraid to help others.

You mean the incredible shrinking middle class in America?

Its good that some Christians are willing to pay taxes to help others.

Willing? I didn’t know we had a choice. Do we have a choice? Are you paying above and beyond your tax obligations? If not, then put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is.

The selfish Americans want all taxes for bombs and weapons, but not Health Care. I think this is selfish.

Are you serious? We spend more, collectively, on education in this nation than we do on defense. We spend a ton of money on healthcare in the US. Billions if not trillions. You are extremely clueless on the issues. Please refrain from voting in any upcomming election. I think you are foolish, with all due respect.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Think about how you define “selfish” and “unselfish.”

Do you think that taxation and wealth redistribution are the same as charity?

You’re being charitable when you give to the poor for no other reason than your sincere desire to love your fellow man. You’re being charitable when you freely choose to give financial support to those organizations and groups you believe will help the poor.

You’re not being charitable when you pay your taxes because you don’t have a choice but to pay your taxes. If you don’t pay your taxes, then you will lose your property or your freedom.

And you’re certainly not not being charitable when you use the force of government to take from one person and give to another.

You really need to come to terms with how your confusing taxes and charity inflicts tremendous harm on society. The people you steal from (by taxing them) will inevitably grow to resent you and the people you’re giving their money to. That resentment is manifest in the growing sense that people don’t want to give to charity freely anymore because they feel they are being abused by the government in the name of charity.

If you want to help the poor, then get out there and do it.
But don’t hold a gun to my head and tell me I’m being charitable as you reach for my wallet.

It doesn’t matter if you’re ultimate goal is to feed the poor, heal the sick, or provide shelter to the needy- it means nothing if you have to do it at the point of a gun.

BOY! YOU COULDN’T HAVE SAID IT BETTER.CHARITY Comes from free will and from the heart and to force it on others is an infringement of their rights and freedoms, cant you see that? I do Charity work and we ask for help, and those who give we are thankful for and those who do not give we would still help if they ever needed it because that’s what it is all about. Gladly we get and Gladly we give! Love of Christ Nancy

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Also because everyone is feeling the crunch i’d like to add people would go bilistic and kill others because they earned that money and they have to give up part of their dreams to supply to those who didnt go to school or are to lazy to work or rely on the State, Now i’m not talking about disabled or elderly, i’m talking about may be elegal’s that come here to have their baby’s and go to free food cubbards and dont want to register with the gov. ETC.and just plain bums.The takers and not the givers.

 

[soma]

The Catholic Church supports the illegals and the corporations that hire them. You pay for them, their schools,their medical care, and their incarceration. I understand you are upset about this, but if the corporations didn’t hire them they wouldn’t be here. We subsidize this by paying for their benefits through taxes. The corporations benefit illegally by hiring them.

 

[nancit]

The Catholic Church supports the illegals and the corporations that hire them. You pay for them, their schools,their medical care, and their incarceration. I understand you are upset about this, but if the corporations didn’t hire them they wouldn’t be here. We subsidize this by paying for their benefits through taxes. The corporations benefit illegally by hiring them.

The Catholic Church doesn’t support illegals…they support the dignity of all human beings, period. As for corporations, they have no ability to identify clearly who is illegal and who is not. They are given paperwork that appears to be legal, as many purchase papers that are very difficult to distinguish from original and"real" papers. Due to the enforcement of privacy laws, an employer cannot ask questions or seek undue background checks.

In addition, corporations are forced to pay ridiculous wages due to minimum wage laws and union demands…hurting businesses dramatically.

What is needed is a vast overhall of the immigration laws and then true enforcement of them!

 

[soma]

We have the laws already we need to hold corporations responsible for breaking the law. We have the laws that is why we call them illegals.

Our youth are not hired to learn a skill because illegals take the positions cheaper.

 

[atassina]

Paying taxes and having the government handle it is not the way to fix the health care system. By the way, Nancy, your response at entry #98 was the most thoughtful, thought provoking and well-written response you have ever written to any issue on any thread. Congratulations.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Paying taxes and having the government handle it is not the way to fix the health care system. By the way, Nancy, your response at entry #98 was the most thoughtful, thought provoking and well-written response you have ever written to any issue on any thread. Congratulations.

Thank You! Nancy

 

[Viki63]

2/3 of the American people are in favor of a single payer healthcare system. Please don’t fall for big insurance companies advertising campaign that would equate single payer with socialism. We spend 30% of our health dollars on paying insurance companies’ advertising, huge CEO salaries, profits and administrative costs.
Medicare is expensive because it covers the 20% of people who are most likely to be ill. If everyone were included in the risk pool, the costs would be evenly spread and would go way down.

From Physicians for a National Health Program website:
"The reason we spend more and get less than the rest of the world is because we have a patchwork system of for-profit payers. Private insurers necessarily waste health dollars on things that have nothing to do with care: overhead, underwriting, billing, sales and marketing departments as well as huge profits and exorbitant executive pay. Doctors and hospitals must maintain costly administrative staffs to deal with the bureaucracy. Combined, this needless administration consumes one-third (31 percent) of Americans’ health dollars.

Single-payer financing is the only way to recapture this wasted money. The potential savings on paperwork, more than $350 billion per year, are enough to provide comprehensive coverage to everyone without paying any more than we already do."

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

2/3 of the American people are in favor of a single payer healthcare system. Please don’t fall for big insurance companies advertising campaign that would equate single payer with socialism. We spend 30% of our health dollars on paying insurance companies’ advertising, huge CEO salaries, profits and administrative costs.
Medicare is expensive because it covers the 20% of people who are most likely to be ill. If everyone were included in the risk pool, the costs would be evenly spread and would go way down.

From Physicians for a National Health Program website:
"The reason we spend more and get less than the rest of the world is because we have a patchwork system of for-profit payers. Private insurers necessarily waste health dollars on things that have nothing to do with care: overhead, underwriting, billing, sales and marketing departments as well as huge profits and exorbitant executive pay. Doctors and hospitals must maintain costly administrative staffs to deal with the bureaucracy. Combined, this needless administration consumes one-third (31 percent) of Americans’ health dollars.

Single-payer financing is the only way to recapture this wasted money. The potential savings on paperwork, more than $350 billion per year, are enough to provide comprehensive coverage to everyone without paying any more than we already do."

HI Vici63, I see your point, and i know if we get rid of all those private insurance co’s there would be alot of people out of work, and we do not need that.You would proberly loose your right to choose, we dont need that, It hasn’t worked for other country’s we are no differnt, it will put us in an even bigger hole with no way out. we dont want that, All your personal information will be on the WORLD WIDE WEB FOR EASY access, we dont want that, THE GOVERNMENT would own you and tell you that you are now a certain age AND you have the duty to die, WE DONT WANT THAT, i THINK IT SHOULD BE FREE ONLY FOR CERTAIN AGES, SITUATIONS, and family’s who want it for their children but not as a Universal Health CARE package. I dont mind paying for my privacy and the right to be able to go to the doctor of my choice ETC And besides if that happens there will be a scaresity of Doctors because they simply hate to waite for a year to get paid for thier services rendered.Trust me they will either become teachers, lawyers, or loose all they worked for and become Bums. Yes it is that important!

 

[EnchantedEve]

2/3 of the American people are in favor of a single payer healthcare system. Please don’t fall for big insurance companies advertising campaign that would equate single payer with socialism. We spend 30% of our health dollars on paying insurance companies’ advertising, huge CEO salaries, profits and administrative costs.
Medicare is expensive because it covers the 20% of people who are most likely to be ill. If everyone were included in the risk pool, the costs would be evenly spread and would go way down.

From Physicians for a National Health Program website:
"The reason we spend more and get less than the rest of the world is because we have a patchwork system of for-profit payers. Private insurers necessarily waste health dollars on things that have nothing to do with care: overhead, underwriting, billing, sales and marketing departments as well as huge profits and exorbitant executive pay. Doctors and hospitals must maintain costly administrative staffs to deal with the bureaucracy. Combined, this needless administration consumes one-third (31 percent) of Americans’ health dollars.

Single-payer financing is the only way to recapture this wasted money. The potential savings on paperwork, more than $350 billion per year, are enough to provide comprehensive coverage to everyone without paying any more than we already do."

These are straw man arguments. The majority of the above-named overhead has been mandated or imposed by the government, so to say the government can solve a problem it has created in healthcare is like saying the fox can fix the chicken shortage he caused by eating them! This goes double for paperwork.

None of this will go away if healthcare is socialized. How will paperwork be reduced? If the solution is the national database, we must now hire a new army of professionals to do data-entry, and paperwork will still probably not be abolished due to back-up reasons.
There are numerous ways of saving money other than than government controlling our lives. How about repealing some of the egregious record-keeping laws? Repealing laws and regulations on insurance companies, such as ones that confine them to one area, insulating them from competition? How about repealing all the other sources of overhead, such as Medicare and Medicaid? I would say that other than the fact that our system is still run by for profit companies, healthcare has been de facto nationalized already, due to the muriad of ways government is entangled and immersed in the system. This is more akin to fascism than the free market.

The real solution is returning to a true free market, and disentangling the government from the web it has created in healthcare.

 

[soma]

Doctors say they would rather get less pay and not have to deal with insurance companies. That would be great. They say they would then only have to work 6 hrs a day.

Private doctors are already putting our information on the web and insurance companies make the choice whether a procedure is covered or not. We already lost the choice. They pressure doctors for the cheapest procedure not the best solution.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?
In a Nutshell
Yes
No

The number of uninsured citizens has grown to over 40 million.
Health care has become increasingly unaffordable for businesses and individuals.
We can eliminate wasteful inefficiencies such as duplicate paper work, claim approval, insurance submission, etc.
We can develop a centralized national database which makes diagnosis and treatment easier for doctors.
Medical professionals can concentrate on healing the patient rather than on insurance procedures, malpractice liability, etc.
Free medical services would encourage patients to practice preventive medicine and inquire about problems early when treatment will be light; currently, patients often avoid physicals and other preventive measures because of the costs.
There isn’t a single government agency or division that runs efficiently; do we really want an organization that developed the U.S. Tax Code handling something as complex as health care?
“Free” health care isn’t really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc.
Profit motives, competition, and individual ingenuity have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness.
Government-controlled health care would lead to a decrease in patient flexibility.
Patients aren’t likely to curb their drug costs and doctor visits if health care is free; thus, total costs will be several times what they are now.
Just because Americans are uninsured doesn’t mean they can’t receive health care; nonprofits and government-run hospitals provide services to those who don’t have insurance, and it is illegal to refuse emergency medical service because of a lack of insurance.
Government-mandated procedures will likely reduce doctor flexibility and lead to poor patient care.
Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for the burden of those who smoke, are obese, etc.
A long, painful transition will have to take place involving lost insurance industry jobs, business closures, and new patient record creation.
Loss of private practice options and possible reduced pay may dissuade many would-be doctors from pursuing the profession.
Malpractice lawsuit costs, which are already sky-high, could further explode since universal care may expose the government to legal liability, and the possibility to sue someone with deep pockets usually invites more lawsuits.
Government is more likely to pass additional restrictions or increase taxes on smoking, fast food, etc., leading to a further loss of personal freedoms.
Patient confidentiality is likely to be compromised since centralized health information will likely be maintained by the government.
Like social security, any government benefit eventually is taken as a “right” by the public, meaning that it’s politically near impossible to remove or curtail it later on when costs get out of control.

Some ideas.

 

[narrowpath]

I keep hearing Americans talk about how great the Canadian system is. As some have pointed out, it isn’t. we have unbelieveably long waiting lists for urgent surgeries…many up here are going down to the USA for medical care. On the other hand, after seeing Sicko I wouldn’t want to have to pay for surgery in the USA either. My conclusion is that both systems are junk, but the American one is worse.

Question: How is it different when you have just the state providing health care, and when you have just a couple of megacorp. style HMO’s charging insane amounts of money for the simplest medicine, as well as finding every possible reason NOT to give you the needed care to save money.

I wonder if it’s possible to have a state system in which those who sign up pay taxes, but also to have private HMO’s where people can go.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?
In a Nutshell
Yes
No

The number of uninsured citizens has grown to over 40 million.
Health care has become increasingly unaffordable for businesses and individuals.
We can eliminate wasteful inefficiencies such as duplicate paper work, claim approval, insurance submission, etc.
We can develop a centralized national database which makes diagnosis and treatment easier for doctors.
Medical professionals can concentrate on healing the patient rather than on insurance procedures, malpractice liability, etc.
Free medical services would encourage patients to practice preventive medicine and inquire about problems early when treatment will be light; currently, patients often avoid physicals and other preventive measures because of the costs.
There isn’t a single government agency or division that runs efficiently; do we really want an organization that developed the U.S. Tax Code handling something as complex as health care?
“Free” health care isn’t really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc.
Profit motives, competition, and individual ingenuity have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness.
Government-controlled health care would lead to a decrease in patient flexibility.
Patients aren’t likely to curb their drug costs and doctor visits if health care is free; thus, total costs will be several times what they are now.
Just because Americans are uninsured doesn’t mean they can’t receive health care; nonprofits and government-run hospitals provide services to those who don’t have insurance, and it is illegal to refuse emergency medical service because of a lack of insurance.
Government-mandated procedures will likely reduce doctor flexibility and lead to poor patient care.
Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for the burden of those who smoke, are obese, etc.
A long, painful transition will have to take place involving lost insurance industry jobs, business closures, and new patient record creation.
Loss of private practice options and possible reduced pay may dissuade many would-be doctors from pursuing the profession.
Malpractice lawsuit costs, which are already sky-high, could further explode since universal care may expose the government to legal liability, and the possibility to sue someone with deep pockets usually invites more lawsuits.
Government is more likely to pass additional restrictions or increase taxes on smoking, fast food, etc., leading to a further loss of personal freedoms.
Patient confidentiality is likely to be compromised since centralized health information will likely be maintained by the government.
Like social security, any government benefit eventually is taken as a “right” by the public, meaning that it’s politically near impossible to remove or curtail it later on when costs get out of control.

Some ideas.

I’m sorry I put the same one on OOPS!