Universal Health Insurance (2)

[pathia]

Other states that I could get insurance in too (It grows every year).

Oregon, Colorado, Iowa, New Jersey, Maine, Hawaii, Illinois, New Mexico, Rhode Island and Minnesota. Some of these happened years and years ago, I haven’t heard of a gold rush for benefits in any of these.

 

[orionsbelt]

I don’t believe the U.S. healthcare system is broken but a problem exists because of a simple economic reality mixed with different expectations of social justice and the role of goverment.

What I think most people don’t consider is that health care costs are not rising in the same way something like the cost of milk rises. Costs actually go down constantly. If you are willing to accept the health care of 1990 your cost of health care would be pretty low.

The problem is that new and better things (drugs, equipment, techniques, etc) are constantly made available and they cost money. On top of this there iare a whole lot of people in this country who have the attitude of " I demand and deserve the latest and most up to date healthcare, I don’t want to (or can’t) pay for it, and I don’t care what it costs someone else to deliver it to me".

Simple economic reality says this just won’t work and you should automatically disregard anyone who tells you that they can provide this as either a liar or hopelessly ignorant.

The whole thing gets muddled up because of the emotional aspect of healtcare. The solution is not Government or reengineering the system to provide a compassionate solution that is economically impossible.

The solution is a free market healthcare system which includes providers, users/payers, and insurance companies all making their best try at rational economic decisions combined with charities to provide aid to those who cannot pay for themselves.

Yes I realize that this means some people will go bankrupt because of unfortunate health events but it is the reality of the world.

Governments should play a law inforcement to prevent fraud.

Our role is to work to the best of our abilities to provide for ourselves and our families (which may include buying insurance)and contribute to charities with our time, talent, and treasure as our conscience dictates.

 

[pathia]

Governments should play a law inforcement to prevent fraud.

Our role is to work to the best of our abilities to provide for ourselves and our families (which may include buying insurance)and contribute to charities with our time, talent, and treasure as our conscience dictates.

It isn’t a matter of buying insurance. They don’t cover me, period. I have a condition that is incurable, and on my medical record. They will deny me coverage, period. It isn’t a question of getting it or affording it, because it can’t be gotten, unless I move to certain jurisdictions. Which I am doing, but doesn’t that seem wrong?

The free market is broken by it actively discriminating against me, because it’s in its best interest to never cover someone like me, ever, because I’m simply a walking money pit of medical disasters.

The antibiotics bill from my latest trip to the hospital is probably going to run north into five figures just on its own. They literally had to run just about everything that’s on the market today through my system, and I think whatever ended up working was experimental and still in testing. I don’t even want to think of how much that one cost.

 

[orionsbelt]

It isn’t a matter of buying insurance. They don’t cover me, period. I have a condition that is incurable, and on my medical record. They will deny me coverage, period. It isn’t a question of getting it or affording it, because it can’t be gotten, unless I move to certain jurisdictions. Which I am doing, but doesn’t that seem wrong?

The free market is broken by it actively discriminating against it, because it’s in its best interest to never cover someone like me, ever, because I’m simply a walking money pit of medical disasters.

You may not accept this but I do feel for you and am sorry that you have this burden.

The the fact of the matter is that you have high medical costs and someone has to pay for it. Of course an insurance company won’t insure you. Insurance is based on the idea of risk pooling where overall costs can be estimated over large numbers of people but there is uncertainty in which specific people will incur those costs. Anything else is not insurance but cost transfer to someone else.

What you are saying to the insurance company is I’ll pay you $x dollars in premium and you pay $y in my health costs where Y is guaranteed to be greater than X. This is irrational.

Would you agree to an arrangement where I will send you $5 if you send me $10?

So my question to you is who should pay for your health costs?

 

[goofyjim]

You may not accept this but I do feel for you and am sorry that you have this burden.

The the fact of the matter is that you have high medical costs and someone has to pay for it. Of course an insurance company won’t insure you. Insurance is based on the idea of risk pooling where overall costs can be estimated over large numbers of people but there is uncertainty in which specific people will incur those costs. Anything else is not insurance but cost transfer to someone else.

What you are saying to the insurance company is I’ll pay you $x dollars in premium and you pay $y in my health costs where Y is guaranteed to be greater than X. This is irrational.

Would you agree to an arrangement where I will send you $5 if you send me $10?

So my question to you is who should pay for your health costs?

If insurance companies do their jobs they are supposed to invest the 5 so they can cover you for the 10 in benefits. Otherwise what would be the purpose to inusrance? We would just have a freeforall individuals pay as you go system. And practically everyone would end up going bankrupt under that system.

 

[pathia]

What you are saying to the insurance company is I’ll pay you $x dollars in premium and you pay $y in my health costs where Y is guaranteed to be greater than X. This is irrational.

Would you agree to an arrangement where I will send you $5 if you send me $10?

So my question to you is who should pay for your health costs?

So I should just die? I am so sick, I have not even made in total, throughout my entire life, without taxes, anywhere near the amount that my medical bills are, they have to be covered by someone, unless you believe in euthanasia and I should just die.

I do not ask for expensive treatments, I do not ask for name brands, my costs are as low as they can be in the united states. I am just a sick, sick person. There isn’t anything I can do, there is no cure for faulty chromosomes.

If you don’t think anyone should cover it but me, then I will die, it is simple as that, there is no other choice. I cannot afford it, I am too sick to work anymore. I have such poor care, and been unable to afford the care I need I have now become so sick I am almost entirely disabled. Just a few weeks ago I was actively DYING. If I had care, I might actually be functional, but it’s too late for that, the damage is irreversible. The doctors explained to me, that my lack of preventive care, and lack of ability to visit doctors regularly was directly responsible for why I got so sick. Do I bare some responsibility for that? Oh, of course, but I cannot afford but so much.

Normal healthy people do not get what I had, the only equivalent was an immune deficiency patient, which I do not have. They pulled out some experimental immune system drugs that they have used in infections they get, and it saved my life. I have been sick, so often, so long, and not been able to afford care my immune system is simply ravaged and a shell of what it should be in a normal person.

I have hit a safety net now, because I am disabled, and can no longer work. However now I am going to be an ever greater drag on society than I ever was, because at least before I could work, I probably never will again. It just does not seem logical to me, that I cannot get assistance until the very brink of death, when I will become a total and utter leech on society. Whereas if I was kept healthy from the start, it would have cost everyone, insurance companies, hospitals, the government, myself, my family, everyone, less.

 

[goofyjim]

I have resisted to this point of blowing my own horn, but has anyone here ever just contributed to someone’s medical bills with no questions asked? I have a friend who I continue to do so for him. That is the charity that I will never get the precious tax deduction for and I consider it much better spent than contributing to even organized charitable organizations.

 

[orionsbelt]

So I should just die? I am so sick, I have not even made in total, throughout my entire life, without taxes, anywhere near the amount that my medical bills are, they have to be covered by someone, unless you believe in euthanasia and I should just die.

I do not ask for expensive treatments, I do not ask for name brands, my costs are as low as they can be in the united states. I am just a sick, sick person. There isn’t anything I can do, there is no cure for faulty chromosomes.

If you don’t think anyone should cover it but me, then I will die, it is simple as that, there is no other choice. I cannot afford it, I am too sick to work anymore. I have such poor care, and been unable to afford the care I need I have now become so sick I am almost entirely disabled. If I had care, I might actually be functional, but it’s too late for that, the damage is irreversible.

No I don’t think you should die.

I am not saying I don’t think people SHOULDN’T cover you, I am saying economic reality says noone CAN cover you.

Unfortunately I have no money either so I couldn’t help people in your situations like yourself any more than what I already try to do.

But I cannot advocate forcing anyone else to pay your costs through an inefficient government payment program that calls itself insurance.

All of the desire in the world to help you will not change economic reality.

As I said in my previous post the only solution is charities.

I challenge all posters promoting Universal Health Care to help people like you by contributing their own money and/or effort to a charity.

 

[SFTor]

You may not accept this but I do feel for you and am sorry that you have this burden.

The the fact of the matter is that you have high medical costs and someone has to pay for it. Of course an insurance company won’t insure you. Insurance is based on the idea of risk pooling where overall costs can be estimated over large numbers of people but there is uncertainty in which specific people will incur those costs. Anything else is not insurance but cost transfer to someone else.

What you are saying to the insurance company is I’ll pay you $x dollars in premium and you pay $y in my health costs where Y is guaranteed to be greater than X. This is irrational.

Would you agree to an arrangement where I will send you $5 if you send me $10?

So my question to you is who should pay for your health costs?

I don’t believe this. Every other industrialized country has found ways to handle this that are compassionate and that work through Universal Health Care.

The U.S. is insisting on running a health care system that must produce large profits for companies.

We don’t look at crime as a market. We don’t look at fire or other natural disasters as a market. Why would we look at health as a market, when we know that a corporation’s fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits runs into to the objectives and ethical standards of the medical profession with the force of a train wreck?

Look around you, I beg of you. Every other industrialized country has universal health care. They are not failing rapidly, as some in this thread try to say. They WORK. It is our system that absolutely doesn’t. 50 million people uninsured, thereof 10 million kids, 2 million insured people per year affected by bankruptcies caused by uncovered medical bills?

Not to mention that we have the pleasure of paying twice what other countries pay.

Who in the wide world are we kidding here?

 

[goofyjim]

I don’t believe this. Every other industrialized country has found ways to handle this that are compassionate and that work through Universal Health Care.

The U.S. is insisting on running a health care system that must produce large profits for companies.

We don’t look at crime as a market. We don’t look at fire or other natural disasters as a market. Why would we look at health as a market, when we know that a corporation’s fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits runs into to the objectives and ethical standards of the medical profession with the force of a train wreck?

Look around you, I beg of you. Every other industrialized country has universal health care. They are not failing rapidly, as some in this thread try to say. They WORK. It is our system that absolutely doesn’t. 50 million people uninsured, thereof 10 million kids, 2 million insured people per year affected by bankruptcies caused by uncovered medical bills?

Not to mention that we have the pleasure of paying twice what other countries pay.

Who in the wide world are we kidding here?

Agreed that it can work. The only reason it doesn’t is a declining population due to the abc and abortion mentality. With a steadily increasing population we could make it work and we wouldn’t have our Social Security woes either.

 

[wildleafblower]

I appreciate the list, I will be contacting some of these organizations, however the bolded part is what messes me up. I have insurance coverage, they just refuse to cover most of my expenses. They are the only insurance company in the state that will cover me, so I have no other options. I don’t know if there are exceptions for this situation or not, most people I’ve contacted won’t help me because I have insurance. However, I’m forced it at work basically, I can’t exactly not-pay for it, even if I wanted to even though it doesn’t do anything for me. I’m currently discussing with HR what to do about this situation.

Hi Pathia You are a dear, thoughtful soul. I’m sorry to be late in replying to you. I haven’t had a chance to read through every post but did notice you were in the hospital. I’m glad you’re back! Have you thought about applying for a clinical trail? They recruit particpants from around the world. The National Institute of Health has a list of clinical trails for transsexuals. Perhaps you may wish to keep an eye on the website for upcoming trials. Sometimes they pay for everything including accommodations. They have one going on in Italy right now.

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00146146?term=transsexuals&rank=3

ClinicalTrials.gov

www.clinicaltrials.gov

You are in my prayers.

I see you below Pathia. I’m sorry I wasn’t of help to you. Maybe there will eventually be something good that comes out of your situation. You are brave. Try your best to hang in there. I think you should still contact them and explain your situtation. Maybe, just maybe they will start a new trial based on your situation. They often times do do that.

 

[pathia]

Hi Pathia You are a dear, thoughtful soul. I’m sorry to be late in replying to you. I haven’t had a chance to read through every post but did notice you were in the hospital. I’m glad you’re back! Have you thought about applying for a clinical trail? They recruit particpants from around the world. The National Institute of Health has a list of clinical trails for transsexuals. Perhaps you may wish to keep an eye on the website for upcoming trials. Sometimes they pay for everything including accommodations.
They have one going on in Italy right now.

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00146146?term=transsexuals&rank=3
Testosterone and Its Metabolites in GID - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

You are in my prayers.

I have congenital intersex and endocrine system disorders. This pretty much disqualifies me from every single clinical trial I’ve ever queried about. My condition is so rare, the only trial I could really do is one about my own condition.

 

[SFTor]

No I don’t think you should die.

I am not saying I don’t think people SHOULDN’T cover you, I am saying economic reality says noone CAN cover you.

Unfortunately I have no money either so I couldn’t help people in your situations like yourself any more than what I already try to do.

But I cannot advocate forcing anyone else to pay your costs through an inefficient government payment program that calls itself insurance.

All of the desire in the world to help you will not change economic reality.

As I said in my previous post the only solution is charities.

I challenge all posters promoting Universal Health Care to help people like you by contributing their own money and/or effort to a charity.

Orionsbelt:

I am stunned. Really. All you have to do is look around you, and you find societies that help people like Pathia by sharing the cost over their taxes, without enriching some fat cats in Hartford, Connecticutt in the process. The solution is staring you in the face, Orionsbelt.

Do you have qualms about paying a generous share of your tax bill to the military, when you know we are ignoring people like Pathia?

 

[orionsbelt]

I don’t believe this. Every other industrialized country has found ways to handle this that are compassionate and that work through Universal Health Care.

The U.S. is insisting on running a health care system that must produce large profits for companies.

We don’t look at crime as a market. We don’t look at fire or other natural disasters as a market. Why would we look at health as a market, when we know that a corporation’s fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits runs into to the objectives and ethical standards of the medical profession with the force of a train wreck?

Look around you, I beg of you. Every other industrialized country has universal health care. They are not failing rapidly, as some in this thread try to say. They WORK. It is our system that absolutely doesn’t. 50 million people uninsured, thereof 10 million kids, 2 million insured people per year affected by bankruptcies caused by uncovered medical bills?

Not to mention that we have the pleasure of paying twice what other countries cost.

Who in the wide world are we kidding here?

What is your definition of WORKs? It seems like every British politician makes “fixing” the British healthcare system or some aspect of it a part of their compaign. Why does it have to be fixed if it works so well.

You say we pay twice what other countries pay. Are they paying for the same thing? The average person in the U.S. can get a MRI in an open-MRI machine within a day of having a sports related injury. Can you say the same for “every other industrialized country?”

Now that’s just an example. But you haven’t addressed the economic realities I point out in my first post.

Universal Health Care means rationing of services. There is no getting around that. The fact is that the average person will get less responsive and lower quality system. Next time you are at the Department of Motor Vehicles imagine that you are in line to get a X-Ray for your child rather than a picture for your license. That’s Universal Health Care.

What you want is for the government to choose for everyone that we will get less service. And you also want us to trust that we will get it for less cost - something that would be a first in government.

 

[SFTor]

Agreed that it can work. The only reason it doesn’t is a declining population due to the abc and abortion mentality. With a steadily increasing population we could make it work and we wouldn’t have our Social Security woes either.

I don’t think any of the countries that are running successful public health services right now have any fewer abortions than we do.

 

[pathia]

You say we pay twice what other countries pay. Are they paying for the same thing? The average person in the U.S. can get a MRI in an open-MRI machine within a day of having a sports related injury. Can you say the same for “every other industrialized country?”

Um…no…not even close.

They were worried I had a BRAIN TUMOR and it took me over a month to get the MRI done. It also took me six months to get in with the specialist that saw me and ordered it.

This is in the united states.

 

[goofyjim]

Orionsbelt:

I am stunned. Really. All you have to do is look around you, and you find societies that help people like Pathia by sharing the cost over their taxes, without enriching some fat cats in Hartford, Connecticutt in the process. The solution is staring you in the face, Orionsbelt.

Do you have qualms about paying a generous share of your tax bill to the military, when you know we are ignoring people like Pathia?

And what about my post #1065? Why doesn’t everybody find one person and start contributing to their medical bills if they are behind? Then everything will balance out.

 

[goofyjim]

I don’t think any of the countries that are running successful public health services right now have any fewer abortions than we do.

Therein is the worldwide problem. The system economically could work for everyone, disabled or otherwise, if we weren’t aborting the future generation. Then there would be more economic growth and rising tax revenues even at lower rates and we could provide all this stuff we feel is necessary. Don’t get me wrong. I do believe it is necessary but society has shot itself in the foot over this one and unless we stop abortion we will have no solution.

 

[SFTor]

What is your definition of WORKs? It seems like every British politician makes “fixing” the British healthcare system or some aspect of it a part of their compaign. Why does it have to be fixed if it works so well.

You say we pay twice what other countries pay. Are they paying for the same thing? The average person in the U.S. can get a MRI in an open-MRI machine within a day of having a sports related injury. Can you say the same for “every other industrialized country?”

Now that’s just an example. But you haven’t addressed the economic realities I point out in my first post.

Universal Health Care means rationing of services. There is no getting around that. The fact is that the average person will get less responsive and lower quality system. Next time you are at the Department of Motor Vehicles imagine that you are in line to get a X-Ray for your child rather than a picture for your license. That’s Universal Health Care.

What you want is for the government to choose for everyone that we will get less service. And you also want us to trust that we will get it for less cost - something that would be a first in government.

Orionsbelt:

And you do not see that there is “rationing” of health care going on in the United States as we speak? 50 million Americans, among them 10 million children, are on a ration of zero health care. Right now. How’s that for rationing?

Of course there is a need to fix health care systems in many countries. They are facing challenges, but they are public, and accountable to the public. They get fixed. Our HNMOs and insurance companies are accountable to the shareholders. They don’t get fixed.

Meanwhile we spend 50% of care dollars on people in their last six months of life. That is probably one place where a U.S. health care system could ration: less aggressive care for people who are within months of death.

 

[orionsbelt]

Orionsbelt:

I am stunned. Really. All you have to do is look around you, and you find societies that help people like Pathia by sharing the cost over their taxes, without enriching some fat cats in Hartford, Connecticutt in the process. The solution is staring you in the face, Orionsbelt.

Do you have qualms about paying a generous share of your tax bill to the military, when you know we are ignoring people like Pathia?

Can you elaborate on what you mean by “enriching some fat cats in Hartford?”

Do you mean that insurance companies are somehow making above market return on capital? Sorry to burst your bubble but it just ain’t true. When you look at profits you can’t look at total numbers. They are meaningless by themselves.

If you beleive there is some market inconsistency with insurance company profits I assume you are buying insurance company stock like crazy to get in on those guaranteed over-market returns. Even if you are morally opposed to investing in insurance companies then surely you could set up a system to use those exhorbitant market gains to funnel into charities.

Insurance companies provide a service for profit. If it is not profitable then people will not put capital towards it and there would be no insurance companies.