Universal Health Insurance (2)

[SFTor]

What is your definition of WORKs? It seems like every British politician makes “fixing” the British healthcare system or some aspect of it a part of their compaign. Why does it have to be fixed if it works so well.

You say we pay twice what other countries pay. Are they paying for the same thing? The average person in the U.S. can get a MRI in an open-MRI machine within a day of having a sports related injury. Can you say the same for “every other industrialized country?”

Now that’s just an example. But you haven’t addressed the economic realities I point out in my first post.

Universal Health Care means rationing of services. There is no getting around that. The fact is that the average person will get less responsive and lower quality system. Next time you are at the Department of Motor Vehicles imagine that you are in line to get a X-Ray for your child rather than a picture for your license. That’s Universal Health Care.

What you want is for the government to choose for everyone that we will get less service. And you also want us to trust that we will get it for less cost - something that would be a first in government.

Orionsbelt:

Frankly, am I supposed to take you seriously when you propose that “getting on an MRI machine the same day for a sports-related injury” is some sort of priority?

For a member of a religion that practically invented the equal worth of human beings, you seem to have missed the point of a health care system completely. The purported purpose behind the current system was that it could do the job better than a public system. (This all happened during the Nixon Administration.) The results are in, and it is an abject failure, on every measure of public health.

If you believe that human illness, pain and suffering should only be alleviated in those that have the money to pay for it, just come out and say so. At least it will be honest.

 

[orionsbelt]

Orionsbelt:

And you do not see that there is “rationing” of health care going on in the United States as we speak? 50 million Americans, among them 10 million children, are on a ration of zero health care. Right now. How’s that for rationing?

Of course there is a need to fix health care systems in many countries. They are facing challenges, but they are public, and accountable to the public. They get fixed. Our HNMOs and insurance companies are accountable to the shareholders. They don’t get fixed.

Meanwhile we spend 50% of care dollars on people in their last six months of life. That is probably one place where a U.S. health care system could ration: less aggressive care for people who are within months of death.

Thats not rationing. That is people (doctors, hospitals workers, medical manufacturing plant workers, etc.) refusing to provide a service or good for free or less than it costs to produce it.

Are MediCare and MedicAid fixed?

So you want to decide how much each person will get in their last six months of life? Tell me exactly how are you going to determine when that six months starts? Why do you (or some government official get to decide)? If someone has the money to spend in their last six months of life are they not allowed to spend it on themselves?

You actually contribute to my point that it is the economics of the situation that cause the problems rather that the fact that the system is broken.

 

[goofyjim]

The system is broken whether anyone likes it or not. To just provide services for those who have the means to pay lacks compassion, yet economically, with all those future generations being aborted still we have no way to continue paying for UHC. Catch22 folks.

 

[orionsbelt]

Orionsbelt:

Frankly, am I supposed to take you seriously when you propose that “getting on an MRI machine the same day for a sports-related injury” is some sort of priority?

For a member of a religion that practically invented the equal worth of human beings, you seem to have missed the point of a health care system completely. The purported purpose behind the current system was that it could do the job better than a public system. (This all happened during the Nixon Administration.) The results are in, and it is an abject failure, on every measure of public health.

If you believe that human illness, pain and suffering should only be alleviated in those that have the money to pay for it, just come out and say so. At least it will be honest.

Read my posts. I do not say that pain and suffering relief is only for those that can afford it. I say that economic reality makes it so that you need charities to work to supplement the market rather than a dissolution of the market.

My point is that government is the worst way to solve the problem. Always has been, always will be.

As far as what is a priority - you decide for you what is a priority in terms of what healthcare you should get and I’ll decide for me.

 

[SFTor]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by “enriching some fat cats in Hartford?”

Do you mean that insurance companies are somehow making above market return on capital? Sorry to burst your bubble but it just ain’t true. When you look at profits you can’t look at total numbers. They are meaningless by themselves.

If you beleive there is some market inconsistency with insurance company profits I assume you are buying insurance company stock like crazy to get in on those guaranteed over-market returns. Even if you are morally opposed to investing in insurance companies then surely you could set up a system to use those exhorbitant market gains to funnel into charities.

Insurance companies provide a service for profit. If it is not profitable then people will not put capital towards it and there would be no insurance companies.

Orionsbelt:

Where did you learn your fancy talk about “above market returns on capital?” And is that supposed to be the only reasonable indictment of the U.S. private health care system? How about the fact that it leaves large numbers of people (50 million) uncovered, and actively seek to disqualify their own clients from receiving care when they need it? Is that an indictment for you?

I am not as concerned as you may be with making profits in the health insurance sector. Frankly I find nothing admirable about the direction health care is taking in this country. I am interested in participating in getting every American health care.

Orionsbelt, I am afraid that your moral compass is what may be in need of some fixing.

 

[SFTor]

Read my posts. I do not say that pain and suffering relief is only for those that can afford it. I say that economic reality makes it so that you need charities to work to supplement the market rather than a dissolution of the market.

My point is that government is the worst way to solve the problem. Always has been, always will be.

As far as what is a priority - you decide for you what is a priority in terms of what healthcare you should get and I’ll decide for me.

Your assertion that “government is the worst way to solve the problem” is in direct contradiction with the facts, plain and simple. All the countries in the industrialized world with public health care are better off than the U.S. End of story.

 

[orionsbelt]

Orionsbelt:

I am stunned. Really. All you have to do is look around you, and you find societies that help people like Pathia by sharing the cost over their taxes, without enriching some fat cats in Hartford, Connecticutt in the process. The solution is staring you in the face, Orionsbelt.

Do you have qualms about paying a generous share of your tax bill to the military, when you know we are ignoring people like Pathia?

I don’t have qualms about paying for the military because that is one of the limited things the government was established to specifically do.

Why are you ignoring people like Pathia? Is someone preventing you from helping people in such situations? You can’t volunteer or donate money?

 

[goofyjim]

I don’t have qualms about paying for the military because that is one of the limited things the government was established to specifically do.

Why are you ignoring people like Pathia? Is someone preventing you from helping people in such situations? You can’t volunteer or donate money?

I know you are not addressing me but please go back and read #1065. How many have done or are doing the same?

 

[SFTor]

I don’t have qualms about paying for the military because that is one of the limited things the government was established to specifically do.

Why are you ignoring people like Pathia? Is someone preventing you from helping people in such situations? You can’t volunteer or donate money?

Yes, there is. I can’t afford health care either.

So you’re happy to pay for the military because that’s what the government was established to specifically do.

Are you actually seriously suggesting that you want us to go back to 1782-style government? With a militia, a Post Office, and a Customs House?

No Department of Energy? No FDA? No Department of Education? FAA? FTC? CIA? FBI? EPA—and the list goes on?

Your argument is either ignorant or disingenuous. Take your pick.

Respectfully,

Tor

 

[orionsbelt]

I know you are not addressing me but please go back and read #1065. How many have done or are doing the same?

I’m not sure I understand your point in replying to my post.

#1065 says that people should contribute to charity. I agree 100%. More of that would be good. More of that would reduce the call for government run/controlled/regulated health systems.

 

[SFTor]

I know you are not addressing me but please go back and read #1065. How many have done or are doing the same?

It’s very honorable of you to do so, but it does not address the social problem we are facing.

But I have done so in the past, for that matter. About $25,000, all told.

 

[goofyjim]

I’m not sure I understand your point in replying to my post.

#1065 says that people should contribute to charity. I agree 100%. More of that would be good. More of that would reduce the call for government run/controlled/regulated health systems.

No. My post #1065 states that I have already responded to your call well before this thread ever started. I have a friend who I contribute monthly to his unpaid medical bills.

 

[goofyjim]

It’s very honorable of you to do so, but it does not address the social problem we are facing.

But I have done so in the past, for that matter. About $25,000, all told.

And I have addressed the social problem we are facing. Abortion is destroying all aspects of the economy. Without economic growth we can not provide the services you and I both ask for.

 

[orionsbelt]

Yes, there is. I can’t afford health care either.

So you’re happy to pay for the military because that’s what the government was established to specifically do.

Are you actually seriously suggesting that want us to go back to 1782-style government? With a militia, a Post Office, and a Customs House?

No Department of Energy? No FDA? No Department of Education? FAA? FTC? CIA? FBI? EPA—and the list goes on?

Your argument is either ignorant or disingenuous. Take your pick.

Respectfully,

Tor

I pick ignorant.

Department of Education - Federal government education of my kids - Bad.

FBI - Law enforcement - Good.

CIA - National Security - Good

EPA - debatable - Some good, some bad

FTC - debatable

Most of the others are debatable topics of their own.

I’ll say it again - next time you are in the Department of Motor Vehicles imagine you are waiting for healthcare rather than a license renewal. Goverment Healtcare - Scary.

 

[pathia]

I’ll say it again - next time you are in the Department of Motor Vehicles imagine you are waiting for healthcare rather than a license renewal. Goverment Healtcare - Scary.

The longest wait I’ve had at the DMV is about an hour. I waited a month for an MRI.

 

[orionsbelt]

No. My post #1065 states that I have already responded to your call well before this thread ever started. I have a friend who I contribute monthly to his unpaid medical bills.

You are a good friend.

 

[goofyjim]

I pick ignorant.

Department of Education - Federal government education of my kids - Bad.

FBI - Law enforcement - Good.

CIA - National Security - Good

EPA - debatable - Some good, some bad

FTC - debatable

Most of the others are debatable topics of their own.

I’ll say it again - next time you are in the Department of Motor Vehicles imagine you are waiting for healthcare rather than a license renewal. Goverment Healtcare - Scary.

Oh yeah. No registered motor vehicles. A freeforall when it comes to too many cars on the road and road rage. Nothing to control who has the right to own one and process the applications.

 

[SFTor]

And I have addressed the social problem we are facing. Abortion is destroying all aspects of the economy. Without economic growth we can not provide the services you and I both ask for.

I have answered that. Other countries with similar abortion numbers are succeeding just fine in providing health care for their populations.

That dog won’t hunt, GoofyJim.

 

[orionsbelt]

The longest wait I’ve had at the DMV is about an hour. I waited a month for an MRI.

I suggest you shop around. I got an MRI same day as my injury.

The beauty of a free market is you can do that.

 

[SFTor]

Oh yeah. No registered motor vehicles. A freeforall when it comes to too many cars on the road and road rage. Nothing to control who has the right to own one and process the applications.

I think everyone in this country can be grateful to know that Orionsbelt is not in charge of setting up the government.