Universal health insurance

[ribozyme]

Of course it is, but that isn’t the goal, according to those in this thread. They don’t want some minimum coverage available to all people; they want the same coverage FORCED on all people. A position the Church doesn’t endorse.

Meanwhile, they boast about the greatness of Catholic education, and other things reserved for the haves. You cannot logically endorse Catholic schooling if you want to force those of us with health coverage to lose what we have in favor of a lower standard of care. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

Again, would someone show me anywhere that the Church has decreed that everything HAS to be the same.

We have to feed the poor; we do not have to pay for them to eat at Ruth’s Chris Steakhouse.

There are so many holes in the arguemnt it isn’t funny. I’ll ask AGAIN, how do we plan on handling the military in this communistic plan for minimum mandated care for all?

Someone explain how this would all work, rather than saying " BUT BUT BUT WE NEED IT!!!"

Do you have any evidence for your claims. Do you have any evidence that anyone in this thread proposed perfect egalitarianism although I personally love the egalitarianism of the Scandinavian countries. No I do not believe perfect egalitarianism is a form of social justice, but I believe protection from adversity is a laudable goal of social justice (not “family values” or concern about abortion.)

 

[He_Man]

Do you have any evidence for your claims. Do you have any evidence that anyone in this thread proposed perfect egalitarianism although I personally love the egalitarianism of the Scandinavian countries. No I do not believe perfect egalitarianism is a form of social justice, but I believe protection from adversity is a laudable goal of social justice (not “family values” or concern about abortion.)

Trying reading the thread for evidence. That’d be a good start, since the notion was espoused there.

 

[ribozyme]

Trying reading the thread for evidence. That’d be a good start, since the notion was espoused there.

I do not see it. Point it out for me. (Although one poster concede perfect egalitarianism is not possible.)

But I suppose the ultimate standard of social justice is to minimize the adversity experienced by the poor. But such a tenet is an anathema for an ethical system that isn’t based on utilitarian principles.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

i think it’s a good idea to have affordable health care for all. people should pay according to what they can afford. i don’t think it is right for people to go bankrupt over medical bills. especially considering the amount of money our government wastes.

that being said, we still have the best healthcare in the world.

 

[pathia]

i think it’s a good idea to have affordable health care for all. people should pay according to what they can afford. i don’t think it is right for people to go bankrupt over medical bills. especially considering the amount of money our government wastes.

that being said, we still have the best healthcare in the world.

I’ve filed for bankrupt twice already over medical bills and I am waiting for the timer to run out so I can do it a third time.

I am only 28.

Sure, I can always get care, however the reason why my bills are so high is because I cannot afford prevention and wellness. I can only wait until my medical conditions deteriorate to the point of hospitalization, where I can just get care via going to the ER. It’s not out of lazyness or spite, it’s simply the only way I can get treatment because they won’t turn me away due to my lack of money.

I don’t know the solution, but the current system is making retirement completely impossible. I haven’t been able to save a cent my entire life due to the huge bills I have, everything has to be given away with every bankruptcy, and that’s the only way to discharge several hundred thousand dollars of debt. I will never own a house, or a new car, despite making what the government considers middle class, because I already carry several years worth of salaries in keeping my body working.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Of course it is, but that isn’t the goal, according to those in this thread. They don’t want some minimum coverage available to all people; they want the same coverage FORCED on all people. A position the Church doesn’t endorse.

The goal isn’t health care at all. The goal is control. People must be forced to wear the same size shoes, wear the same clothes, think the same thoughts, and so on.

Meanwhile, they boast about the greatness of Catholic education, and other things reserved for the haves. You cannot logically endorse Catholic schooling if you want to force those of us with health coverage to lose what we have in favor of a lower standard of care. It is IMPOSSIBLE.

I ran a little experiment – I need hearing aids, and I can get them through the Veteran’s Administration. So I applied. It took eight months to get into the system. Then I got an appointment to see a doctor in another town – 100 mile round trip. He told me what my doctor at home told me.

Then he set up an appointment for me to have my hearing tested in another town – a 250 mile round trip – so they could do what the audio center within walking distance of my own doctor could do!

Again, would someone show me anywhere that the Church has decreed that everything HAS to be the same.

The Church has clearly not said that – and while Christ’s message was not economic, where He does mention economics, He clearly favors capitalism tempered with charity.

We have to feed the poor; we do not have to pay for them to eat at Ruth’s Chris Steakhouse.

There are so many holes in the arguemnt it isn’t funny. I’ll ask AGAIN, how do we plan on handling the military in this communistic plan for minimum mandated care for all?

Someone explain how this would all work, rather than saying " BUT BUT BUT WE NEED IT!!!"

We don’t need to know how it will work. Just put blind faith in the government. A dram is better than a damn.

 

[onetimeposter]

I’ve filed for bankrupt twice already over medical bills and I am waiting for the timer to run out so I can do it a third time.

I am only 28.

Sure, I can always get care, however the reason why my bills are so high is because I cannot afford prevention and wellness. I can only wait until my medical conditions deteriorate to the point of hospitalization, where I can just get care via going to the ER. It’s not out of lazyness or spite, it’s simply the only way I can get treatment because they won’t turn me away due to my lack of money.

My point exactly…it’s a sad situation and one that people like Vern ( I can only assume he is an American Citizen) refused to acknowledge or chooses to ignore.

This was my point exactly and Vern tore my points apart, claiming that the situation that you have just described, quite simply does not happen in the USA. ( get ready for the post from Vern complaining that I’m putting words in his mouth…but what else am I to conclude?)

 

[vern_humphrey]

My point exactly…it’s a sad situation and one that people like Vern ( I can only assume he is an American Citizen) refused to acknowledge or chooses to ignore.

This was my point exactly and Vern tore my points apart, claiming that the situation that you have just described, quite simply does not happen in the USA. ( get ready for the post from Vern complaining that I’m putting words in his mouth…but what else am I to conclude?)

You can conclude that you’ve lost the debate and are resorting to personal attacks.

 

[onetimeposter]

You can conclude that you’ve lost the debate and are resorting to personal attacks.

Predictable and you avoided the topic completely.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Predictable and you avoided the topic completely.

The topic has degenerated into your personal attacks.

In fact, preventive care is available in the US, even to the uninsured. There are plenty of places that offer low cost treatment, or even free.

 

[onetimeposter]

The topic has degenerated into your personal attacks.

In fact, preventive care is available in the US, even to the uninsured. There are plenty of places that offer low cost treatment, or even free.

Then there is no problem. Every American has equal access to quality preventative health care.

Thanks for clearing that up Vern.

( Health Insurance is only to boost the egos of Citizens who want to show the world that they can pay their own way!)

Vern you said it…not me…go back to post #72.

We have health insurance because the majority of us pay our own way. We’re funny like that – self-reliant and pay as you go.

Uhm, err, so that’s the only reason why Americans pay into health insurance policies? Yikes.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

My top value in this debate is the general well being of the American people. While universal health insurance for every American sounds like it would significantly reduce medical problems, I do not believe it would. First, the doctor-patient ratio would increase, and doctors would be seeing more patients and therefore not be able to treat each one as well. Second, people with terminal illnesses would not be able to get treated as quickly, due to a longer waiting list. Third, countries such as Canada have established this policy, and it has been a failure. Canadians are always coming to hospitals in the USA. Fourth, the status quo ensures treatment for every patient already. No doctor can reject a patient in a hospital for the lack of funding. Problem appears to be solved already. Fifth, the funds required for the government mandate this program would be through the roof, and thus money could not be spent elsewhere, on problems that truly do need funding (environment, protecting the troops, immigration problems, economic stimulus, etc.)

Do you have any statistics to back up your claims (i.e., “Canadians are always coming to hospitals in the USA” or “the doctor-patient ratio would increase”)?

Also, one of your points is fundamentally flawed: there is nothing that forces a doctor to treat a patient who has no insurance except in the emergency room. ERs must provide stabilizing care to people who need it – e.g., they can’t turn away a gunshot victim because he has no insurance, but there’s nothing to force them to remove the bullet lodged in his spine if it’s not life-threatening.

The result of this is that people with no health insurance go to the ER when they’re sick and often don’t pay for it. That cost gets passed on to everyone else.

Peace,
Dante

 

[onetimeposter]

Do you have any statistics to back up your claims (i.e., “Canadians are always coming to hospitals in the USA” or “the doctor-patient ratio would increase”)?

Also, one of your points is fundamentally flawed: there is nothing that forces a doctor to treat a patient who has no insurance except in the emergency room. ERs must provide stabilizing care to people who need it – e.g., they can’t turn away a gunshot victim because he has no insurance, but there’s nothing to force them to remove the bullet lodged in his spine if it’s not life-threatening.

The result of this is that people with no health insurance go to the ER when they’re sick and often don’t pay for it. That cost gets passed on to everyone else.

Peace,
Dante

Vern…you reading these posts? They are the absolute truth of the matter.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Then there is no problem. Every American has equal access to quality preventative health care.

Thanks for clearing that up Vern.

( Health Insurance is only to boost the egos of Citizens who want to show the world that they can pay their own way!)

Vern you said it…not me…go back to post #72.

We have health insurance because the majority of us pay our own way. We’re funny like that – self-reliant and pay as you go.

Uhm, err, so that’s the only reason why Americans pay into health insurance policies? Yikes.

Whereas posting here is only to boost the ego of immature Canadians?

 

[Julianna]

I’ve filed for bankrupt twice already over medical bills and I am waiting for the timer to run out so I can do it a third time.

I am only 28.

Sure, I can always get care, however the reason why my bills are so high is because I cannot afford prevention and wellness. I can only wait until my medical conditions deteriorate to the point of hospitalization, where I can just get care via going to the ER. It’s not out of lazyness or spite, it’s simply the only way I can get treatment because they won’t turn me away due to my lack of money.

I don’t know the solution, but the current system is making retirement completely impossible. I haven’t been able to save a cent my entire life due to the huge bills I have, everything has to be given away with every bankruptcy, and that’s the only way to discharge several hundred thousand dollars of debt. I will never own a house, or a new car, despite making what the government considers middle class, because I already carry several years worth of salaries in keeping my body working.

That is what my daughters 20 something friends do. They wait until they are so sick they can’t move…then they go to the emergency room to get care. Dr visits are 85.00, plus any prescriptions at FULL price. A 20 something going to college and waiting tables cannot afford health insurance.

When my brother goes to the doctor, he whips out the Wal-Mart list of $4.00 prescription drugs and says to the doctor, “Doc, here is your list to choose from, if the medication is not on this list, don’t waste the ink in your pen.”

My daughter survived 5 weeks on samples of Cymbalta for depression. After that it was $150.00 for a prescription…so she stopped taking it.

My mother would go to Canada and she knows many of her senior friends who do go to Canada to get their prescriptions. However, SC is fer piece from the border. So sometimes she does without. My brother, sister and I pay for a supplement through AARP so she can get her medication, otherwise, she would just live with high blood pressure until it eventually kills her. I would rather uncle sam allow my DH and I to carry her on our health insurance. Something to think about.

 

[onetimeposter]

That is what my daughters 20 something friends do. They wait until they are so sick they can’t move…then they go to the emergency room to get care. Dr visits are 85.00, plus any prescriptions at FULL price. A 20 something going to college and waiting tables cannot afford health insurance.

When my brother goes to the doctor, he whips out the Wal-Mart list of $4.00 prescription drugs and says to the doctor, “Doc, here is your list to choose from, if the medication is not on this list, don’t waste the ink in your pen.”

My daughter survived 5 weeks on samples of Cymbalta for depression. After that it was $150.00 for a prescription…so she stopped taking it.

My mother would go to Canada and she knows many of her senior friends who do go to Canada to get their prescriptions. However, SC is fer piece from the border. So sometimes she does without. My brother, sister and I pay for a supplement through AARP so she can get her medication, otherwise, she would just live with high blood pressure until it eventually kills her. I would rather uncle sam allow my DH and I to carry her on our health insurance. Something to think about.

Vern, I’m not interested in trading insults. Yet another excellent post…there are problems, people sticking their heads in the sand won’t solve the problems.

 

[mary_bobo]

On one hand you seem to understand how damaging an unproven wide sweeping comment can make in relation to a system…

on the other hand:

You base your entire opinion that the Canadian system of universal health care for every citizen is a complete failure…based upon your one individual case.

The problem is that there are 32 million Canadians, with hundreds of millions of stories…some good, some bad…

I admit in every post that the Canadian system is not perfect, yet I am a bit surprised that there are people willing to dismiss outright Universal Health care…based upon what?

Lastly, your comment that your condition would never have risked your life in the USA…but what if you didn’t have health insurance?

I’m glad your Ok, but to dismiss universal health care for 32 million Canadians…is a bit off the mark.

If you folks across the border are happy with your health care, good for you. I was merely recounting a personal event which forms by opinion about the health care system there. I am not dismissing it for you, if that is what you are happy with. And, yes, if I had not had insurance in the States, with the condition I had, I most certainly would have gotten care. It was kind of Canada to pay my very large medical bills, but I think it unwise to pay for people who are not Canadians when they can afford to pay for themselves.

 

[pathia]

In fact, preventive care is available in the US, even to the uninsured. There are plenty of places that offer low cost treatment, or even free.

I require specialists. No doctor in any free clinic has any experience treating most of my conditions. Also, the drugs that I require have no generics and some are literally as expensive as $1000 a month in the states. I can get freebies, sometimes, but drug companies do not give away free samples of $1000 a month drugs nearly as often as they do of the cheaper sort.

Most of my care came from when I was in school, I am such a rare case they used to me do studies and managed to get me some of my prescriptions in the name of their studies, however those days are now over.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That is what my daughters 20 something friends do. They wait until they are so sick they can’t move…then they go to the emergency room to get care. Dr visits are 85.00, plus any prescriptions at FULL price. A 20 something going to college and waiting tables cannot afford health insurance.

How often do 20-somethings get “so sick they can’t move?” Most people spend most of their health care dollars in the last six months of their lives.

What preventive health care do 20-somethings need? Things like Flu vaccines are cheap.

When my brother goes to the doctor, he whips out the Wal-Mart list of $4.00 prescription drugs and says to the doctor, “Doc, here is your list to choose from, if the medication is not on this list, don’t waste the ink in your pen.”

Makes sense – that’s what I do.

My daughter survived 5 weeks on samples of Cymbalta for depression. After that it was $150.00 for a prescription…so she stopped taking it.

My mother would go to Canada and she knows many of her senior friends who do go to Canada to get their prescriptions. However, SC is fer piece from the border. So sometimes she does without. My brother, sister and I pay for a supplement through AARP so she can get her medication, otherwise, she would just live with high blood pressure until it eventually kills her. I would rather uncle sam allow my DH and I to carry her on our health insurance. Something to think about.

8 And whoever does not provide for relatives and especially family members has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

1 Timothy, 5, 8.

 

[pathia]

How often do 20-somethings get “so sick they can’t move?”

About three times a year is my average. I’ve had kidney stones and gall stones multiple times. Likely my gallbladder should come out, but I can’t really afford it as a ‘preventive’ measure.

What preventive health care do 20-somethings need? Things like Flu vaccines are cheap.

Fosamax, the drug that keeps me from developing osteoporosis and a hunchback before I am 40 is quite expensive, there are generics now thankfully, but it’s still very expensive. There are no generics and no treatments that are cheap for this to be replaced with.

I also require GnRH agonists, that are so specialized and expensive they can only be done by injection and cost several thousand dollars a pop without insurance. Again, there are no cheaper methods of treatment, this is my only option.

This quickly adds up to about 20,000 a year in ‘preventive’ care that I pay for out of my pocket, which is over half my take home pay. However the real cost is even greater, because I am sick so often, I obviously don’t work as much as I could if I were healthy.