Universal health insurance

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Again, explain to me why this country allows for the existence of private education?
Given the state of public education – with a national high school dropout rate of about 30% and an average dropout rate of 50% for our largest cities, we have to have an alternate system of education.

Imagine if we had a universal medical care system with a track record like that!!
 
Question -

In all these scenarios, are doctors going to be “forced” to participate.

Will doctors be forced to treat patients they don’t care to treat?

If you think things are screwy now with insurance companies deciding what they will and will not pay a doctor for, and how much, just wait till we have universal healthcare as envisioned by some. With any kind of universal healthcare, just like with the systems now, someone will decide that a doctor will only be paid X number of dollars for a certain procedure.

If I am a top notch, nationally recognized expert in my field (like Denton Cooley or Stephen DeBakey in the early days of heart bypass and transplant work), am I going to be told who to treat and how much? If so, I’m out of here, I start my own clinic in Cozumel or Bermuda, and only treat those I want to treat. And for those who are not wealthy and really need their services they won’t be available.

These national/socialistic concepts may “balkanize” healthcare, and hurt as much as help.

A good doctor today, also has to be a good businessman. And that has to be factored into any discussion of this kind.
 
You deserve some sort of health care to take of your family.

You do not deserve to see everyone else’s healthcare ripped away because you can’t afford it. That’s socialism.

I still don’t see what your goal is - an honorable one, like ensuring a minimum level of health coverage for all people, or a dishonorable one, like taking away everyone else’s choices because some people in society don’t have the choice. That doesn’t help YOU at all. It is simply punishing your fellow man because they can afford more.

Again, explain to me why this country allows for the existence of private education?
To address Vern real quick and to point out how I spend my time while unemployed, I’d like you to know I am very busy with charities in this area. I work, very hard, 3 days a week volunteering at different organizations. As long as I’m unemployed, I try to never say no when asked to help in other ways. I put applications in at various places and have been trying to gain a full time job. In the meantime, I do odd jobs when one is presented, usually lawn care, these jobs are far and few in between.

Since I have time, I get up every morning to attend the daily Mass and attend both Masses on the weekends. I make this point so you know I get up very early for these and it’s a very good way to start one’s day.

I am not sitting back with my hand out. My wife and I receive no assistance and have not been in a position to ask for it.

Even though I am unemployed, I count my blessings for the things I do have.

I am 54 years old and my wife is 53. Her work is not professional and she makes $9.00 per hour.

I see nothing wrong in allowing private options for those who can afford it. I am not trying to promote socialism. That does not mean we should leave others out totally as it is today, which is more of a “caste” system, for a lack of a better word.

Through my volunteer work, I come into contact with lots of people who are poverty stricken. I feel that it is necessary to guarantee to provide healthcare for those who need, but cannot afford. As it is, a person with cancer, who cannot afford treatment, can be turned away from receiving treatment. In short, they are sent home to eventually die. There is something wrong with that, in my opinion. The cancer treatments are more than minimal healthcare.

So what is the best answer on a governmental level? I personally do not know. I can only trust in the Lord. I was only trying to give a perspective from what I have witnessed personally. This country is full of under privileged, that I find to be a shame.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.
Prodigal Son1
 
In some of these schemes, doctors who take on private pay patients will be subject to prosecution for taking “bribes.” That is a regulation that keeps raising its ugly head.

I am reminded of Walter Williams’ call to health care authorities in various countries (he did this as part of a radio show about ten years ago.) He asked the British authority if it was true that people over 55 were not eligible for kidney dialysis. After some quibbling, the official finally admitted it.

So Williams asked, “How do you tell patients over 55 that the government is going to let them die as a cost-savings measure?”

There was a pause and the shocked official said, “We would never tell them that!” He went on in a pious tone of voice, “We tell them ‘Medical science has no hope for you.’”

Lie and let 'em die rather than have them cross the channel and try to save their lives with their own money.
 
To address Vern real quick and to point out how I spend my time while unemployed, I’d like you to know I am very busy with charities in this area. I work, very hard, 3 days a week volunteering at different organizations. As long as I’m unemployed, I try to never say no when asked to help in other ways. I put applications in at various places and have been trying to gain a full time job. In the meantime, I do odd jobs when one is presented, usually lawn care, these jobs are far and few in between.
I appreciate that – but how does that apply to this thread?

How does it solve our problems without asking the government to take charge of us, since we are not willing to solve them personally?
 
My top value in this debate is the general well being of the American people. While universal health insurance for every American sounds like it would significantly reduce medical problems, I do not believe it would. First, the doctor-patient ratio would increase, and doctors would be seeing more patients and therefore not be able to treat each one as well. Second, people with terminal illnesses would not be able to get treated as quickly, due to a longer waiting list. Third, countries such as Canada have established this policy, and it has been a failure. Canadians are always coming to hospitals in the USA. Fourth, the status quo ensures treatment for every patient already. No doctor can reject a patient in a hospital for the lack of funding. Problem appears to be solved already. Fifth, the funds required for the government mandate this program would be through the roof, and thus money could not be spent elsewhere, on problems that truly do need funding (environment, protecting the troops, immigration problems, economic stimulus, etc.)

The Catholic Church currently advocates for universal health insurance. While their intent is great, I do not believe that the problem could be solved by the method in which they are in favor of.
Speaking as a person who cannot afford health insurance for my family, I’m pretty sure that the quality of my family’s health care would improve with universal coverage.

Dangling the government approved carrot of employer sponsored health insurance (ie guilt trip) in front of low income workers is the best way to keep wages low.

How else can you explain the difference between the cost of employer sponsored plans versus comparable individually purchased plans.

And don’t give me that quantity discount balogna either. If that were the case, there would be a difference in premium between a family of 2 and a family of 12.

Wake up America.
 
I elect my member of parliament to worry about this stuff…it works for me.👍

Seriously, the Canadian system, although not perfect…it does work.

Take me for example.

I saw a funny mole on my neck
I go to my family doctor with my health card, swipe the card, in I go to see my doctor.
He refers me to a dermatologist.
I go see the dermatologist, they swipe my health card, he takes a biopsy.
2 weeks later, I get a call, its a melanoma skin cancer.
I go see my family doctor, swipe the card.
I go back to the dermatologist, swipe the card.
I have an appointment to have the tumour removed
I re-attend the dermatologist’s, guess what…yep, they swipe the card and the tumour is removed.

My prognosis is basically 100% because it was caught early.

All of my medical costs were funded by the Canadian Tax payer…I did not pay one cent out of pocket.

Like I said, the system isn’t perfect…the only negative part of the whole process…is I had to wait about 5 months initially to see the dermatologist.

Now, in my city the waiting list is 5 months, in Toronto, the waiting list is 2 weeks. So, very clearly there simply are not enough dermatologists in my city…

Like, I said, the system isn’t perfect…but it does work and I’m proof of it. 😉

What would my services have cost in the USA if I didn’t have health insurance?
 
I appreciate that – but how does that apply to this thread?

How does it solve our problems without asking the government to take charge of us, since we are not willing to solve them personally?
It applies because it had been inferred that maybe since I promoted a universal healthcare I was being greedy to which I responded and the comeback was the response I needed to work harder. Please read through the thread and maybe you can see the correlation.

It was also a demonstration that some of us are doing what we can. It doesn’t solve the problem, but it offers a partial answer of part of the “we” are not willing to solve them personally part of your statement.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.
Prodigal Son1
 
I elect my member of parliament to worry about this stuff…it works for me.👍

Seriously, the Canadian system, although not perfect…it does work.

Take me for example.

I saw a funny mole on my neck
I go to my family doctor with my health card, swipe the card, in I go to see my doctor.
He refers me to a dermatologist.
I go see the dermatologist, they swipe my health card, he takes a biopsy.
2 weeks later, I get a call, its a melanoma skin cancer.
I go see my family doctor, swipe the card.
I go back to the dermatologist, swipe the card.
I have an appointment to have the tumour removed
I re-attend the dermatologist’s, guess what…yep, they swipe the card and the tumour is removed.

My prognosis is basically 100% because it was caught early.

All of my medical costs were funded by the Canadian Tax payer…I did not pay one cent out of pocket.

Like I said, the system isn’t perfect…the only negative part of the whole process…is I had to wait about 5 months initially to see the dermatologist.

Now, in my city the waiting list is 5 months, in Toronto, the waiting list is 2 weeks. So, very clearly there simply are not enough dermatologists in my city…

Like, I said, the system isn’t perfect…but it does work and I’m proof of it. 😉

What would my services have cost in the USA if I didn’t have health insurance?
Thank you for posting this.

No system will be perfect and the wealthy will always be able to afford the best, even if they sometimes must cross national boundries to do so.

Meanwhile, many of us who cannot afford health insurance will be better off with nationaally sponsered coverage.
 
Since our Holy Father has invited us Catholics to be active in the public square , guess this attempt to make our small voices heard is o.k 🙂
Code:
  Our Lord's public ministry was pronounced for its focus on healings ....spiritual , physical ....
Hope The Church can step into this area again at a larger scale …combining the best of both private and Govt .programs …helping it to be low cost for those who need it …enough choices …and even competition , only to show how She can be a true healer , by bringing into use and help all at her disposal …

Residential retreat programs ( with confession , Adoration …) for the weary and worrried where the power of forgiveness will be a powerful healing balm …wise and dignified decisions at the end of life that avoid wasteful expense from the fear of facing the unavoidable …wise choices that respect life , thus preventing huge waste of lives at all levels - esp. of those who carry the baggage of guilt and bondage and all that come with it …

And there might even be enough income , to be able to run good inexpensive school systems too …

Thy Kingdom come !
 
:eek:

So, the Canadian system is a failure eh? Care to back that claim up, other than saying ’ Canadians go to American Hospitals all the time’.

Yes, the Canadian Universal Health care system has it’s problems, it is far from perfect, but it does work and every single person in the country has equal access to tax funded health care.

To dismiss the Canadian Health Care system as a complete failure is quite simply wrong.

Lets try and refrain from making such wide sweeping claims about things that we know nothing about.👍
I agree about sweeping statements. We all tend to do it from time to time and it more often than not negates the rest of the conversation. Now, as to the Canadian system, I darn near died while living there under that system and the circumstances would never have happened in the States. I enjoyed my time in Canada and still correspond with friends there, but as far as I am concerned, I would not want that system here.
 
I agree about sweeping statements. We all tend to do it from time to time and it more often than not negates the rest of the conversation. Now, as to the Canadian system, I darn near died while living there under that system and the circumstances would never have happened in the States. I enjoyed my time in Canada and still correspond with friends there, but as far as I am concerned, I would not want that system here.
At a time when I had coverage for my wife and myself, a doctor diagnosed her abdomen swelling as a stomach infection. After a few weeks of antibiotics her swelling continued. The doctor wanted to intensify the antibotic treatment.

I took her to another doctor who ran some tests and told us she had a tumor. They removed a 10 pound plus tumor from her in surgery. Luckily it was benign.

I don’t know what experiences you went through in Canada, but the point of my story is that our healthcare system has it’s shortcomings.

Here is a link to The World Health Organization’s ranking
of the world’s health systems.


May the peace of the Lord be with you.
Prodigal Son1
 
It applies because it had been inferred that maybe since I promoted a universal healthcare I was being greedy to which I responded and the comeback was the response I needed to work harder. Please read through the thread and maybe you can see the correlation.
I think you are taking matters in debate personally.
It was also a demonstration that some of us are doing what we can. It doesn’t solve the problem, but it offers a partial answer of part of the “we” are not willing to solve them personally part of your statement.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.
Prodigal Son1
Then can I assume you are not in favor of a government-run single-payer healthcare system?
 
I think you are taking matters in debate personally.

Then can I assume you are not in favor of a government-run single-payer healthcare system?
I’ll admit I might have. It’s hard to discern sarcasm through this type format. If I did mistake your comments, I apologize.

I am for a universal healthcare system with the caveat that no person should be forced into participating in that particular system if they choose to seek out private sources. As someone used as an example, the public/private school system. Americans should be allowed to choose what type coverage they want as long as coverage is made available to all.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.
Prodigal Son1
 
I’ll admit I might have. It’s hard to discern sarcasm through this type format. If I did mistake your comments, I apologize.

I am for a universal healthcare system with the caveat that no person should be forced into participating in that particular system if they choose to seek out private sources. As someone used as an example, the public/private school system. Americans should be allowed to choose what type coverage they want as long as coverage is made available to all.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.
Prodigal Son1
And Medical Savings Accounts are one way to do that, with assistance to those who cannot pay based on their income tax return.

We could also add a few other options – for example, do you know it’s against the law for you to shop for health insurance across state lines? You can buy anything else – books from Amazon, computers from Dell – across state lines, but not health insurance!

Do you know that it’s against the law for non-affiliated businesses to band together to bargain for health insurance for their employees from a position of strength? Your local shoe store is forbidded to form an assocation with your local hardware store, local gas station, and so on, to get better prices for employee health insurance.

Do you know that “cheap drugs” in Canada and Europe are subsidized by American consumers? We pay the manufacturing cost plus the cost of R&D, and they only pay manufacturing costs – and in the process the European contributions to drug R&D have shrunk dramatically in the last 15 years.

Do you know that Wal-Mart will sell you a month’s supply of any generic drug for $4.00? And that Wal-Mart was attacked on this issue in the United States Senate for being “unfair” to other drug stores?!?:eek:
 
I elect my member of parliament to worry about this stuff…it works for me.👍

Seriously, the Canadian system, although not perfect…it does work.
Of course it works. Your country and Europe enjoys a longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality rate than we do here. We pay 82% more as citizens for our healthcare than the average of other industrialized nations. Even with that our government spends more on health care than other industrialized nations and our benefit for all of that is that we end up being ranked between the lower 20’s and 30’s in healthcare quality. But hey we beat Mexico, and in immunizations we’re just behind Botswana!
Take me for example.
I saw a funny mole on my neck
I go to my family doctor with my health card, swipe the card, in I go to see my doctor.
He refers me to a dermatologist.
I go see the dermatologist, they swipe my health card, he takes a biopsy.
2 weeks later, I get a call, its a melanoma skin cancer.
I go see my family doctor, swipe the card.
I go back to the dermatologist, swipe the card.
I have an appointment to have the tumour removed
I re-attend the dermatologist’s, guess what…yep, they swipe the card and the tumour is removed.
My prognosis is basically 100% because it was caught early.
Glad everything worked out.
All of my medical costs were funded by the Canadian Tax payer…I did not pay one cent out of pocket.
I’m sure that was a relief. Most of my family has died of one form of cancer or another. We’ve all been blessed to have insurance but I’ve had a couple of family members have their insurance give out while in treatment because the costs exceeded the maximum coverage.
Like I said, the system isn’t perfect…the only negative part of the whole process…is I had to wait about 5 months initially to see the dermatologist.
Now, in my city the waiting list is 5 months, in Toronto, the waiting list is 2 weeks. So, very clearly there simply are not enough dermatologists in my city…
Sure it really isn’t any different here. More rural areas have less medical availability. Even in medium sized cities one can wait a few months for certain procedures. One of my uncle’s was in a motorcycle wreck last year. He had to be flown to a facility that could handle his injuries that ended up being out of state. He had to spend two months in the hospital. His wife had to pretty much leave her job and move out of state to be with him at the hospital.

He recovered well physically but he had memory loss that extended about a month and a half after he left the hospital so for these 3.5 months he was without income, for 2 of those months his wife was without income. They also did not have insurance. So while they’re back up and working they’ve got tens of thousands of dollars of medical bills to pay off now.
Like, I said, the system isn’t perfect…but it does work and I’m proof of it. 😉
What would my services have cost in the USA if I didn’t have health insurance?
A lot, and in some cases you may have had to just die from it. Best case scenario though you either would have been paying off a staggering bill or the hospital would have absorbed the bill which would have then been passed on in costs to someone with insurance who’s company would have used it as an excuse to raise their rates thus increasing the number of people who can’t afford insurance.

Further we have less healthcare freedom of choice than other industrialized nations. In France you can go to any doctor you like even specialists not so here. Our system also hurts us in the free market. Major employers like GMC have to spend billions of dollars on insurance each year for workers in the US. While in Canada they’ve saved money because of the government helping with health costs. In addition we have a phenomenon here called “job lock” this is when employees are afraid to leave their job for fear of losing health coverage.
 
It has been said before, “A government-run healthcare system will have all the efficiency of the Post Office and all the compassion of the IRS.”
 
And Medical Savings Accounts are one way to do that, with assistance to those who cannot pay based on their income tax return.

We could also add a few other options – for example, do you know it’s against the law for you to shop for health insurance across state lines? You can buy anything else – books from Amazon, computers from Dell – across state lines, but not health insurance!

Do you know that it’s against the law for non-affiliated businesses to band together to bargain for health insurance for their employees from a position of strength? Your local shoe store is forbidded to form an assocation with your local hardware store, local gas station, and so on, to get better prices for employee health insurance.
Does anyone know what the laws are in reference to a religious group getting together for health insurance? Big business is offered discounts for their numbers. Why can’t Catholics be considered a group and seek group coverage? What would be the pros and cons?
Do you know that “cheap drugs” in Canada and Europe are subsidized by American consumers? We pay the manufacturing cost plus the cost of R&D, and they only pay manufacturing costs – and in the process the European contributions to drug R&D have shrunk dramatically in the last 15 years.
Do you know that Wal-Mart will sell you a month’s supply of any generic drug for $4.00? And that Wal-Mart was attacked on this issue in the United States Senate for being “unfair” to other drug stores?!?:eek:
It shows the power of big business and how it affects our government to work against the average citizen. It’s more of an attempt to remain a monopoly for the sake of profits, or so it seems to me.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.
Prodigal Son1
 
It has been said before, “A government-run healthcare system will have all the efficiency of the Post Office and all the compassion of the IRS.”
I get my mail ok. The mail may be slow, but it works better than delivering it myself.

It has been said before, its the have’s vs. the have nots.
 
Does anyone know what the laws are in reference to a religious group getting together for health insurance? Big business is offered discounts for their numbers. Why can’t Catholics be considered a group and seek group coverage? What would be the pros and cons?
The Church could do it – they offer life insurance through the Knights of Columbus.
It shows the power of big business and how it affects our government to work against the average citizen. It’s more of an attempt to remain a monopoly for the sake of profits, or so it seems to me.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.
Prodigal Son1
Are you saying Wal-Mart has a duty to cheat and gouge the public? That they have to have high prices for drugs to make things “fair” for other businesses which cheat and gouge?
 
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