Universal health insurance

[po18guy]

Reducing costs = denying care or insurance

I’m afraid you’ve lost me here. Competition and reducing costs associated with providing the care in the first place will lower the price and thus increase availability. This is fairly simple economic theory.

Examine each and every nation that has tried “socialized” or “universal” health care. See how long it functioned under budget (0%), see how it required ever increasing subsidizing (taxes) combined with, yes, reduction of services. It is health care rationing, and the elderly and impoverished still fare poorly. Many die waiting for treatment.

No rationing of health care!

 

[Sailka]

I’m afraid you’ve lost me here. Competition and reducing costs associated with providing the care in the first place will lower the price and thus increase availability. This is fairly simple economic theory.

Examine each and every nation that has tried “socialized” or “universal” health care. See how long it functioned under budget (0%), see how it required ever increasing subsidizing (taxes) combined with, yes, reduction of services. It is health care rationing, and the elderly and impoverished still fare poorly. Many die waiting for treatment.

No rationing of health care!

                                                                                                                                                                                          National Health  Care was Begun first in Germany in 1880, and is continuing Very successfully.   My  German mom's sister and her Olympic  competitor   husband were both German MD's.  Both of their Son's became MD's   in National Health Care. 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                          USA is the Only advanced  country  in the world that does not have National Health care.   Have you heard that Mexico will beging National Health care  next year?                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                          And National Health care costs Vastly less per capita  than our federally subsidized by us   health care industry  of businesses.

 

[EphelDuath]

I’m irked by the “socialism is bad!” people, since they seem to disregard the facts in favor of philosophy.

We ranked 37th in health care in the world: below every single developed nation (the CIA considers only 35 nations to be developed). Nine levels below Saudi Arabia. (Source). We’re the only developed country in the entire world that doesn’t give free health care to all of our citizens.

We pay over $600 more per person than Canada does. (Source). However, we still have 47 million people uninsured; 16% of Americans don’t have health care. (Source)

60% of all doctors in the United States supports universal health care. (Source.)

Universal health care will save up to $280 billion per year in administrative costs. (Source) Lack of health care is the leading cause of bankruptcy in the United States. (Source.) Therefore; universal health care will both decrease the amount of money we need in taxes, reduce bankruptcy and increase trade because millions of people will not be in serious debt or poverty.

 

[Sailka]

I’m irked by the “socialism is bad!” people, since they seem to disregard the facts in favor of philosophy.

We ranked 37th in health care in the world: below every single developed nation (the CIA considers only 35 nations to be developed). Nine levels below Saudi Arabia. (Source). We’re the only developed country in the entire world that doesn’t give free health care to all of our citizens.

We pay over $600 more per person than Canada does. (Source). However, we still have 47 million people uninsured; 16% of Americans don’t have health care. (Source)

60% of all doctors in the United States supports universal health care. (Source.)

Universal health care will save up to $280 billion per year in administrative costs. (Source) Lack of health care is the leading cause of bankruptcy in the United States. (Source.) Therefore; universal health care will both decrease the amount of money we need in taxes, reduce bankruptcy and increase trade because millions of people will not be in serious debt or poverty.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Thank you so much in documenting!  :tiphat: 
                                                                                           Perhaps it is the  money is everything, money is god financial  philosophy.   :tsktsk:

 

[Sailka]

You are nothing if not persistent.
You have already provided your information about socialized healthcare in other countries.
Please provide a primary source. Just saying “NPR said so” isn’t sufficient because, in addition to NPR’s liberal bias, for all I know you might have been listening to an interview where a pundit simply made up or spun the data you keep posting.

:thumbsup: Several sources OK? Reality is very widey known, documented. Please see EphelDuath posting #799

 

[vern_humphrey]

No. They should just shut up and go away. Who cares if they die? They’re part of the excess population anyway.

That’s the right wing idea, anyway.

You know that’s not true. You’re just saying it because you’ve let your mindset be polluted by simplistic, PROTESTANT either/or style thinking.

 

[Sailka]

You know that’s not true. You’re just saying it because you’ve let your mindset be polluted by simplistic, PROTESTANT either/or style thinking.

                                                                                                                                                                                          :thumbsup: LCM was speaking of the Right Wiing idea, not protestant idea, that problems should go away and die.  As the Great  Catholic theoretical Theologian, Mother Angelica  said  on EWTN, its not enough to pray for problems to go away, we also  need to work on getting rid of them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                          And this Catholic  educated  writer thinks, governments were created  (By the Chinese, about 7,000 years ago)  to solve problems that individuals and groups can't. They invented higher education for the  first government administrators, who some, for Economic   (My Money is only thing that counts)  politicking  reasons call "beaurocrats". 

                                :extrahappy: :dancing: ;)

 

[vern_humphrey]

LCM was speaking of the Right Wiing idea, not protestant idea, that problems should go away and die.

No, he only says things like that because he’s let his mindset be polluted by simplistic, PROTESTANT either/or style thinking.

As the Great Catholic theoretical Theologian, Mother Angelica said on EWTN, its not enough to pray for problems to go away, we also need to work on getting rid of them.

So when are you and he getting to work?

                                                      And this Catholic  educated  writer thinks, governments were created  (By the Chinese, about 7,000 years ago)  to solve problems that individuals and groups can't. They invented higher education for the  first government administrators, who some, for Economic   (My Money is only thing that counts)  politicking  reasons call "beaurocrats".

If you think all that, your education is clearly lacking.

By the way, try composing your posts in your word processing program and run your spelling and grammar checker!

 

[Sailka]

No, he only says things like that because he’s let his mindset be polluted by simplistic, PROTESTANT either/or style thinking.

So when are you and he getting to work?

If you think all that, your education is clearly lacking.

By the way, try composing your posts in your word processing program and run your spelling and grammar checker!

                                                                                                                                                                                          Am focused on getting the Big Truths out, and pulling big  mistakes in, factually, as Church teaches.       

                                                                                                                                                                                          I don't have word processor, and can't type. too educated to  :D  Am too poor but honest to  have word processor,   Brother.  Am 4th degree Knight  also. 
                         
                                                                                                                                                                                         Since prove your  economic  philosophy incoorect always, Brother, your only attacks left are my occassional mispelink :)  after 12 hours?   To Err is human, as once said  ;)

Vivat Jesus, not self
Your Suthern Brother, Tony

 

[vern_humphrey]

                                                                                                                                                                                          Am focused on getting the Big Truths out, and pulling big  mistakes in, factually, as Church teaches.

You’re not succeeding.

                                                                                         I don't have word processor, and can't type. too educated to  :D  Am too poor but honest to  have word processor,   Brother.  Am 4th degree Knight  also.

For cryin’ out loud, you can get a word processor program free on the internet!

                                                                                         Since prove your  economic  philosophy incoorect always, Brother, your only attacks left are my occassional mispelink :)  after 12 hours?   To Err is human, as once said  ;)

And that claim is surely an error on your part.

 

[Sailka]

You’re not succeeding.
All the facts, truths, even teachings of Holy Church cannot change (satanically set??? Self serving mindsets.

                                                                                                                                                                                        :shrug:

For cryin’ out loud, you can get a word processor program free on the internet!
But how to Use? Satan blocking me from using word processors, even the $19.95 cheap one. :crying:

And that claim is surely an error on your part.

                                                                                                                                                                                          I claim no errors. Only you do, with Any and Everyone who disagrees with you on  your economic philosophy, which sounds very much like your wallet philosophies.   :)  :p

Have a great day, Brother.

 

[BamaRider]

Too funny. When the govt leaves ya alone, (like they mostly do here in Alabama) you can buy some pretty good health insurance (like mine) that gives me carte blanche to private hospital rooms, big time greedy doctors, and no waiting lines.

I know how I live, what I do, and where I go, and if I lived in a state or province that whacked me for 50% of my income I’d be shut down.

It all boils down to this people-how much of YOUR freedom are you willing to sign over to the govt to be taken care of? You *no *longer have total control of YOUR health care, thats a frightening thought to me, if you’re ok with that, then fill out the paperwork and let the govt garnish YOUR check, but leave ME alone, all I’m asking.

But NO, that ain’t enough for YOU people, you wanna garnish *my *check too, pay for YOUR health care! For crying out loud just walk up and down your street with a tin cup and knock on people’s doors and tell them you need dental coverage.

All of y’all that wanna surrender your health care to the govt need to think about what you are doing. Take a visit the nearest govt office and try to get something done, and now you wanna put them in charge of health care?

Now you people tell us Canada doesn’t spend as much as we do on health care. For cyring out loud the average CDN tax burden is 3 times what mine is, for level of income. I can buy health insurance and still have enough left over to buy motorcycles, travel, eat out, Direct TV, big screens etc. LOL. I have friends in the Toronto Fire Dept I ride with, we make roughly the same thing, but they live nowhere close to me, and they tell me that when they’re down here visiting, or me up there.

I don’t believe ALL of my buddies up there are poor money managers, but the principal of it is they only get to keep about half of what they make. Property, sales, income taxes are outrageous, and rob people of buying power.

Not just Canada either, we have states here that are right there with ya. The Noritheast of America has taxed themselves into a permament state of malaise, those states are gonna lose representatives in the house next census, all the people leaving outta there.

I can’t tell ya the motorcycle stuff I buy for Andy, and ship to him, to avoid the punishing sales taxes he’d hafta to otherwise cough up. Stuff like tires, helmets, gloves, and coats all did a end run on the CDN taxes. What do they call that special tax they put on ya when ya buy a new care up there? LOL…

Owell y’all get my drift. To each is own.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

                                                                                                                                                                                          :thumbsup: LCM was speaking of the Right Wiing idea, not protestant idea, that problems should go away and die.  As the Great  Catholic theoretical Theologian, Mother Angelica  said  on EWTN, its not enough to pray for problems to go away, we also  need to work on getting rid of them. 
                                                                                                                                                                                          And this Catholic  educated  writer thinks, governments were created  (By the Chinese, about 7,000 years ago)  to solve problems that individuals and groups can't. They invented higher education for the  first government administrators, who some, for Economic   (My Money is only thing that counts)  politicking  reasons call "beaurocrats". 

                                :extrahappy: :dancing: ;)

Just ignore humphrey, he’s been hounding me by accusing me of ignoring my signature line because he can’t fight with honor, so he resorts to these childish tactics. So, I ignore him and laugh at his childishness. Seeing the arrogant make fools of themselves, like vern and his ilk do, is quite entertaining once you see things for what they are.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Just ignore humphrey, he’s been hounding me by accusing me of ignoring my signature line because he can’t fight with honor, so he resorts to these childish tactics. So, I ignore him and laugh at his childishness. Seeing the arrogant make fools of themselves, like vern and his ilk do, is quite entertaining once you see things for what they are.

You’re only saying this because you’ve let your mindset be polluted by simplistic, PROTESTANT either/or style thinking.

 

[Sailka]

Too funny. When the govt leaves ya alone, (like they mostly do here in Alabama) you can buy some pretty good health insurance (like mine) that gives me carte blanche to private hospital rooms, big time greedy doctors, and no waiting lines.

I know how I live, what I do, and where I go, and if I lived in a state or province that whacked me for 50% of my income I’d be shut down.
Are your Toronto firefighter friends shut down? Are they unhappy with their higher standard of living? Their ‘social’ attitudes? Know what the alleged 50% tax rate gets them? 2 years longer life expectancy for Canadians, the Highest standards of Living, (Iceland and scandinavian countries) the lowest priced and higher participation rates Higher education, the greatest per capita charity donations (scandinavian countries on disaster reliefs) , the highest tech economies and new products (ever heard that Finish Nokia has burried our cell phone founder Motorola? The French Medevac and Coast Guard choppers in USA, the new French Airbus Air Force Tankers), etc,. etc, etc.

It all boils down to this people-how much of YOUR freedom are you willing to sign over to the govt to be taken care of?

What freedoms have I given up? None. Government does not welfare us individually, does not take care of us. Is too busy doing that to our big businesses and wealthiest, like agribusiness, and trying to pay our record deficits Interest to China, Saudia, Japan et al. What freedoms have we given up to the best disability, survivors And retirement Federal Insurance system, SSA, which Also has annual col increases. How many know that SSA has 1 % overhead, vs 7% for insurance companies?

You *no *longer have total control of YOUR health care, thats a frightening thought to me, if you’re ok with that, then fill out the paperwork and let the govt garnish YOUR check, but leave ME alone, all I’m asking.
When did we ever have ‘total control’ of our healthcare? Laws were passed to prevent us from serious wrongs like amputating the wrong limb on us, phony health elixirs etc. And the government does not garnish paychecks. Only business bill collectors do. Are you aware of the biggest cause of personal (And 2 of 3 biggest USA Auto manufacturers last year?) causes of bankruptcies in USA now? Medical/Health expenses in USA. In no other countries does that happen.

But NO, that ain’t enough for YOU people, you wanna garnish *my *check too, pay for YOUR health care! For crying out loud just walk up and down your street with a tin cup and knock on people’s doors and tell them you need dental coverage.
Who is ‘YOU people’? Are you not American, not Christian? Givernment does not garnish, except for most serious non-paymet of taxes. Garnishment is massivelly by businesses to collect payment.

                                                                                           And dental care is available only  by   purchasing it.   Dental coverage is subsidized basically only to age 18 in some states. Basic dental care, not braces, etc.                                             
                                                                                           By the way, Sir, I know  adults and elderly  very close to me who  do not have enough teeth left to chew food, because of lack of  money for dental treatment.    Restoring teeth  requires lot of Money.

All of y’all that wanna surrender your health care to the govt need to think about what you are doing. Take a visit the nearest govt office and try to get something done, and now you wanna put them in charge of health care?

Now you people tell us Canada doesn’t spend as much as we do on health care. For cyring out loud the average CDN tax burden is 3 times what mine is, for level of income. I can buy health insurance and still have enough left over to buy motorcycles, travel, eat out, Direct TV, big screens etc. LOL. I have friends in the Toronto Fire Dept I ride with, we make roughly the same thing, but they live nowhere close to me, and they tell me that when they’re down here visiting, or me up there.

I don’t believe ALL of my buddies up there are poor money managers, but the principal of it is they only get to keep about half of what they make. Property, sales, income taxes are outrageous, and rob people of buying power.
But where does the money for Your salary and the fancy firetrucks you have come from? Charity? From government taxes, which pay for getting done those things we can not do for ourselves.

                                                                                           And I do not have enough income to buy minmal  health 'insurance'. VERY many don't

Not just Canada either, we have states here that are right there with ya. The Noritheast of America has taxed themselves into a permament state of malaise, those states are gonna lose representatives in the house next census, all the people leaving outta there.

I can’t tell ya the motorcycle stuff I buy for Andy, and ship to him, to avoid the punishing sales taxes he’d hafta to otherwise cough up. Stuff like tires, helmets, gloves, and coats all did a end run on the CDN taxes. What do they call that special tax they put on ya when ya buy a new care up there? LOL…

Owell y’all get my drift. To each is own.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Yes, But:                                                                                  
                                                                                           We pay at Least 50% more per capita for healthcare than Any other country, and  most of us can't receive that healthcare unless wealthy enough to.    Know where the extra money goes in this decade?  Our USA  government subsidizing health industry  businesses, like the most profitable in the USA:  Pharmaceutical  companies 


                                                                                                                                                                                          Canadians have higher standard  of living, far less worry, longer lifespan, and get very major Benefits  from their higher taxes than we remotelly  approach.                                                                       

                                                                                                                                                                                          Where would we be without Fire regulations, Sir?  Why were they enacted?  to Remove our 'freedoms'?                                          

                                                                                           GTR. Thanks for Serving, Sir.

 

[BamaRider]

What freedoms have I given up?

When you are levied taxes at the rate of the average CDN you give up your freedom to spend YOUR money the way you want.

Now I dunno about in your part of the world, but I can think of alot of things I can do with MY income instead of forking it over to the govt. For instance if my property taxes anywhere apporached what the average CDN pays on a house like mine, I’d have to give up one of my motorcycles and Direct TV, with the NFL package. Not a pleasant thought LOL.

And that is the freedom I’m referring to. Now you can surrender YOUR economic freedom for security all you want, but don’t drag me into it. My total tax bill here in Alabama is about 17%. (sales, property, income) Now think of all the disposable income that gives me, when its not 50%. Why is it hard to understand a punishing 50% tax rate, robs you of economic freedoms?

If Canadians were allowed to keep most of what they made, instead of forking it over to the govt, my guess is they could buy some pretty good healthcare, with total health care freedoms to decide when they were gonna get operated on, and who would do the work etc.

I diagree vehemently I have no control of my health care. My BCBS allows me to see greedy millionare doctors and not some wanna be workin pro bono. Where I come from, if I need a surgeon I want that greedy, 5 mil a year doctor working on me, and not that 150k year guy. I want the batting champion doing brain surgery on me, not some second stringer. LOL.

Are your Toronto firefighter friends shut down? Are they unhappy with their higher standard of living? Their ‘social’ attitudes? Know what the alleged 50% tax rate gets them? 2 years longer life expectancy for Canadians, the Highest standards of Living, (Iceland and scandinavian countries) the lowest priced and higher participation rates Higher education, the greatest per capita charity donations (scandinavian countries on disaster reliefs) , the highest tech economies and new products (ever heard that Finish Nokia has burried our cell phone founder Motorola? The French Medevac and Coast Guard choppers in USA, the new French Airbus Air Force Tankers), etc,. etc, etc.

Apples and oranges. Alot goes into stats. 2 years life expectancy? Ever thought about the racial make up of America and those nuances? Ever thought we just might eat too many Big Macs as opposed our Canadian brothers. LOL

Now I dunno about standards of living, but I can tell ya this, I’ve traveledy most every backroad in Canada, I’ve been more done more then 99% of the good folks that live there. Halifax, Cape Breton, all the way over to Alberta and Victoria. Not once but 3 times over. Prince Edward to Pacific. I’ve yet to see ONE sprawling neighborhood with all brick homes on 5 acrce lots that here in Alabama are as a common as 7-11s. Does anybody up there own a all brick home but a millionare?

For sure I can take ya to some ragged out trailer parks around here. And I think that is the biggest thing- extremes, up there you don’t see such swings, everybody seems to be in the middle. But I can tell ya what passes off as upper middle class in Alabama puts you in the top 10% in Canada, and all because of the tax burden.

Just remember this, in a span of only 200 years, a couple hundred million people created the wealthiest, most powerful nation world has ever known. China, despite all its billions and 2000 year head start is just now geting in the game, the Europeans? Passed them a long time ago. Abouslety nobody moves to Europe or Canada to make a million dollars. When some guy has a big dream of being rich, he comes HERE, because only here is the economic oppurtunity so favorable. Now you can move to those places and have a nice life, but if you’re looking for the big time, ain’t but one place to park. That only happens because of freedom. Millions are lost, won back, and lost again in this country, happens all the time.

I retired from the fire dept 3 years ago at the age of 49 after 26 years of service. My friend Andy is a Captain in the Toronto FIre Service, has 32 years of service and still going because he can’t pay the annual property tax on his bungalow (about half the size of my house) on a pension and live. He says that tax is in the thousands, where mine is 244 dollars annually. That difference buys my health insurance, Direct TV, gas, internet, and lunch out most everyday. And thats a fact. You think I’m gonna sign up to give all that up for the priviledge of waiting in line in some govt hospital trying to get a hernia fixed?? LOL

I’ve spent ALOT of time in Toronto, good folks and pizza, they even tracked me back all the way to Alabama for a toll on the 401cost them 3 dollars get 2, but they found me from the camera things they have everywhere.

Here is what I can tell ya, I don’t believe Canada has anyone as poor as some folks in Alabama, (they are that way for reasons I won’t go into) but they have no where near the upper middle class, because of the cost of living and lack of economic freedom. You just don’t see so many extremes. I’ve seen it first hand. Try riding the Yellowhead from Winterpeg (I mean Winnipeg) acoss Canada to British Columbia, it will give you an idea on how the average Canadian lives outside of Ontario.

Who is ‘YOU people’? Are you not American, not Christian? Givernment does not garnish, except for most serious non-paymet of taxes. Garnishment is massivelly by businesses to collect payment.

“You people” would be liberals LOL. Don’t garnish? What the heck do you call a income tax? Sheesh brother they took it right outta my check, what would YOU call it? When a private entity does that they call it a “garnishment” the govt surgarcoats it, but make not mistake what it is …a Garnishment.

Only business bill collectors do. Are you aware of the biggest cause of personal (And 2 of 3 biggest USA Auto manufacturers last year?) causes of bankruptcies in USA now? Medical/Health expenses in USA. In no other countries does that happen.

Now this doesn’t apply to everybody, but to way too many. How about giving up their cable tv, big screens, Applebee’s, boats, and buy some health insurance?? Many keep rolling along hoping nothing happens, then guess what? And what the left won’t say it happens ALOT. “But Guy you can’t expect the average American to give up his cable tv for health care.” LOL hello???

And dental care is available only by purchasing it.

WELL IMAGINE THAT! LOL.

Not all govt is bad. Public safey, defense are the exceptions they do that well. We need them to license, and other things, but healthcare???

 

[soma]

“You can never get enough of what you don’t need to make you happy.”
Eric Hoffer.

“There must be more to life than having everything!”
Maurice Sendak.

“Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don’t need.”
Chuck Palahniuk.

People need health care.

 

[Oscarthecat]

I personally advocate negative utilitarianism which emphasizes focusing on reducing suffering instead of maximizing pleasure.

Ok, so then you would advocate reducing the suffering of a large group by increasing the suffering of a small group. Sounds the same to me.

 

[Oscarthecat]

                                                                                                                                                                                          National Health  Care was Begun first in Germany in 1880, and is continuing Very successfully.   My  German mom's sister and her Olympic  competitor   husband were both German MD's.  Both of their Son's became MD's   in National Health Care. 
        
                                                                                                                                                                                          USA is the Only advanced  country  in the world that does not have National Health care.   Have you heard that Mexico will beging National Health care  next year?                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                          And National Health care costs Vastly less per capita  than our federally subsidized by us   health care industry  of businesses.

You know, just because europeans do something doesnt make it right. We learned before many europeans that monarchies were a bad idea.
“europe is doing it” is not a convincing rationale. For crying out loud, thay still have DISCO!

 

[CAROLOFTHEBELLS]

I apologize for not reading all of the thread. Maybe someone mentioned the points I’m about to bring up.

I worked for a while as a Medicaide (Medi-Cal in California) eligibility worker. My eyes were opened. America presently has a huge tax funded bureacracy working to systematically determine if someone should get government funded health care benefits. Caseloads are heavy and many, many workers are employed doing complicated work in a system that, frankly, is a ridiculous way of going about making sure the poor, elderly, young, and handicaped can pay for medical care. Many poor adults fall through the cracks of the system because they don’t have children. If clients don’t complete forms properly, or if they don’t give proper varification of information, they can be denied after a certain period of time. But then they can reapply. If the client is approved, but failed to appear for a scheduled meeting their benefits can be taken away. But then they can reapply. To me this is just a hugely funded merry-go-round. So - why don’t just do this thing the simple way? I mean there must be something better than this? The only problem is thousands and thousands of eligibility workers would be put out of work.

Another thing the present system of health care for the poor does is put women seeking Medicaide to pay for abortions as top priority. The reason, I was told, is actually to protect the health of mother and baby - if mom wants an abortion she is less likely to get the proper care by putting it off. The irony is, at least in California, the fetus is looked at as a life. A pregnant woman who wants to carry the baby to term is also given top priority. So why are we paying for the fetus, the baby, to be destroyed?

Other people with more pressing health or financial issues should not be put on hold because of abortion. An example of something that happens is an intake worker has a case with an elderly person that she/he is working on that day. Kind of complicated but needs to be taken care of soon. A woman who wants an abortion shows up in the lobby and applies for benefits to be used for an abortion. She is assigned to that worker right away and the worker has to put the case (and 80 others that she is working on) on hold while she works to get the benefits approved to be used for the case of the woman who wants an abortion. I had no idea that went on until I did the work. So I was quite happy when it didn’t work out.

I think our present system is a waste and we need something else.