Universal Healthcare, Is it scriptural?

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If hospitals are closing in Canada and doctors fleeing the country, the Canadians have violated moral pragmatism – and blaming the doctors don’t feed the bulldog.😉
Just to be devil’s advovate ;), could it be possible that the rest of us are ‘in the wrong’ and are putting Canada in an unacceptable position? Aren’t WE causing the shortage in Canada and it’s actually us who need to change to fit in with God’s will? Just because an organisation is ‘successful’, it doesn’t mean it’s morally sound. 🙂
 
Understood. 👍 Was that Kant’s philosophy too?

Hospitals are closing in Canada because of the politicians. The doctors aren’t at fault though many still feel they left for the money. I think it’s the politicians. The hospital I was born in could still be open today but it isn’t. And they had just done hundreds of thousands of dollars of renovation work a few years before it closed. It is now a place where they train police dogs and it may be torn down. Such a shame.

Oh…and another hospital no longer has an emergency room. 😦
There are those who assure us that if we give them all power and all our money, they will bring us paradise on earth. When they fail to deliver, the have ready-made excuses:
  1. You didn’t give us enough power.
  2. You didn’t give up enough of your money.
  3. Somewhere out there is someone who is still free and has a few pennies in his jeans.
 
Just to be devil’s advovate ;), could it be possible that the rest of us are ‘in the wrong’ and are putting Canada in an unacceptable position? Aren’t WE causing the shortage in Canada and it’s actually us who need to change to fit in with God’s will?
What did I do here in Stone County, Arkansas, to cause doctors to flee Canada?
Just because an organisation is ‘successful’, it doesn’t mean it’s morally sound. 🙂
The moral soundness of this particular organization is its ability to deliver health care. To the extent the availability and quality of healthcare is deteriorating, to that extent it has failed.
 
mary bobo;1814282:
What constrictions though? A doctor’s job is to treat the sick. There are no constrictions to doing that are there? If a doctor leaves our country for yours, it’s most likely that he/she is doing it for the money. You don’t see many American doctors coming here do you?
Those American doctors to which you refer may not want to practice in a socialized system. And somewhere along the line some have inferred that it is not right for a physician not to want to make money. It is their “job”. They have families to feed, staffs to pay, not to mention malpractice insurance.
 
hoosierdaddy;1826340:
Those American doctors to which you refer may not want to practice in a socialized system. And somewhere along the line some have inferred that it is not right for a physician not to want to make money. It is their “job”. They have families to feed, staffs to pay, not to mention malpractice insurance.
Having drilled a hole in the bottom of the boat, they blame the ocean for rushing in instead of draining out.😉
 
The moral soundness of this particular organization is its ability to deliver health care.
I don’t totally agree.

For example, if a company fulfilled all it’s employment responsibilities in its native country, if it payed generous but fair wages, if it offered job security and a good pension…

but treated its overseas workers appallingly, did not respect their rights and paid low wages or even employed child labour then that company would rightly be taken to task irrespective of how it fulfilled its moral obligations at home.

Now, of course, this is an extreme example but I am citing it to try and explain that we no longer, if we ever did, live in a vacuum. What we do in one part of the world has repercussions in another.
To the extent the availability and quality of healthcare is deteriorating, to that extent it has failed.
I would suggest that WE have failed. With regard to America and Canada, the US health system may have to accept that it is having a negative effect on the Canadian system without intending to - in other words, people are going without healthcare because of the inflated wages being paid to American doctors compared to Canadian doctors. Our moral responsibilities do not end with fulfilling a mission statment, no matter how noble that statment is (and healthcare is amongst the noblest). Though it may be difficult to change this status quo, healthcare for ALL is the goal, and we can only do it by working together and taking a combined responsibility - America and Canada. To close our eyes to the problems of others is the moral faliure.
 
I don’t totally agree.

For example, if a company fulfilled all it’s employment responsibilities in its native country, if it payed generous but fair wages, if it offered job security and a good pension…

but treated its overseas workers appallingly, did not respect their rights and paid low wages or even employed child labour then that company would rightly be taken to task irrespective of how it fulfilled its moral obligations at home.

Now, of course, this is an extreme example but I am citing it to try and explain that we no longer, if we ever did, live in a vacuum. What we do in one part of the world has repercussions in another.
But here’s the key point. The system was set up to provide health care. The quality is deteriorating, hospitals are closing, and doctors are leaving.

That’s failure. We cannot suddenly introduce other criteria and claim success when the system has failed in its primary aim.
I would suggest that WE have failed.
Right. Now, who has the guts to apply effective corrective action?
With regard to America and Canada, the US health system may have to accept that it is having a negative effect on the Canadian system without intending to - in other words, people are going without healthcare because of the inflated wages being paid to American doctors compared to Canadian doctors.
No!

A thing is worth what a willing buyer will offer and a willing seller will accept. The fact that consumers are offereing more in the US and doctors are accepting it tells us it is economically fair. The doctor’s wages in the US are not “inflated” – the Canadian wages are depressed.
Our moral responsibilities do not end with fulfilling a mission statment, no matter how noble that statment is (and healthcare is amongst the noblest).
But they start with fulfilling the mission statement. And if we don’t fulfil the mission statement, we have failed and it is dishonest to introduce other criteria and claim moral success.
Though it may be difficult to change this status quo, healthcare for ALL is the goal, and we can only do it by working together and taking a combined responsibility - America and Canada. To close our eyes to the problems of others is the moral faliure.
The moral failure is to take a doctrinaire approach, to say “This way will work” even when it is patently failing.
 
By looking at this from a different view point, I am not disagreeing with you - in fact I agree with a lot of what you’ve said - I’m taking a ‘yes, and’, rather than a ‘no, instead’, approach.
But here’s the key point. The system was set up to provide health care. The quality is deteriorating, hospitals are closing, and doctors are leaving.
I agree, this needs to be looked at, I have no problem with that suggestion.
That’s failure. We cannot suddenly introduce other criteria and claim success when the system has failed in its primary aim.
Again, I agree, but isn’t it sensible to look at all the reasons why it might be failing? If one believes that Universal Healthcare is a moral obligation then one cannot simply adopt another system that negates that happening - even if they do pay more in such a system.
The fact that consumers are offereing more in the US and doctors are accepting it tells us it is economically fair. The doctor’s wages in the US are not “inflated” – the Canadian wages are depressed.
This doesn’t necessarily follow. :confused:

When did democratic capitalism become the yardstick for whether something is right or not? 😉 This situation is damaging the Canadian Healthcare system - would you not advocate action to stop this happening?
But they start with fulfilling the mission statement. And if we don’t fulfil the mission statement, we have failed and it is dishonest to introduce other criteria and claim moral success.
No argument - the mission statement needs to be fufilled.
What I challenge is the assumption that it is, therefore, enough. As I said before, thousands of (on the surface) seemingly ethically run companies have had to change the way they operate because they discovered they were causing problems in other parts of the world. If a situation changes then the moral questions change and that cannot be ignored. The US healthcare system NOW needs to take into account whether it is damaging Canada’s health service - the conclusion might be that it is not - but the question needs to be asked if what has been raised on this thread is true.
The moral failure is to take a doctrinaire approach, to say “This way will work” even when it is patently failing.
Agreed - Canada needs to ask itself how it can provide Universal Healthcare more effectively - but it cannot give up that key principle in the process. It may have to ask the US for understanding in doing this.
 
By looking at this from a different view point, I am not disagreeing with you - in fact I agree with a lot of what you’ve said - I’m taking a ‘yes, and’, rather than a ‘no, instead’, approach.
In other words, when it isn’t working, pour more money into the system, and make it even more expensive and less responsive.
I agree, this needs to be looked at, I have no problem with that suggestion.
Needs to be looked at?

It’s broken. It’s counterproductive. And all it needs is to be **looked **at?

It sounds like you consider the system more important that its mission!
Again, I agree, but isn’t it sensible to look at all the reasons why it might be failing? If one believes that Universal Healthcare is a moral obligation then one cannot simply adopt another system that negates that happening - even if they do pay more in such a system.
It might be failing because it has been sabotaged by alien lunch-eaters from the planet Zolgarsh. But the real reason it’s failing is the same reason the Soviet Union failed – a centralized, planned economy cannot work.
This doesn’t necessarily follow. :confused:
It does follow, and very simply – Canada isn’t paying the fair economic value for healthcare.
When did democratic capitalism become the yardstick for whether something is right or not?
When did failure become the yardstick for whether something is right or not?
This situation is damaging the Canadian Healthcare system - would you not advocate action to stop this happening?
Absolutely. Either go back to a more open, competitive health care system, or pay the doctors their fair economic wages.
No argument - the mission statement needs to be fufilled.
What I challenge is the assumption that it is, therefore, enough.
You can make that challenge after you fulfil the mission statement, not before.
As I said before, thousands of (on the surface) seemingly ethically run companies have had to change the way they operate because they discovered they were causing problems in other parts of the world. If a situation changes then the moral questions change and that cannot be ignored. The US healthcare system NOW needs to take into account whether it is damaging Canada’s health service - the conclusion might be that it is not - but the question needs to be asked if what has been raised on this thread is true.
First, Canada’s healthcare system needs to take into account whether it is damaging Canada’s healthcare system. Cast out the beam in your own eye before you discuss the speck in outs.
Agreed - Canada needs to ask itself how it can provide Universal Healthcare more effectively - but it cannot give up that key principle in the process. It may have to ask the US for understanding in doing this.
You have our understanding – we understand you are set on proving once again that a centralized, planned economy cannot work.

We see your system going down the tubes – don’t expect us to flush ours after you.
 
The NHS is not failing. It is flawed. There’s a difference. I do not agree with the philosophy of social darwinism. Nor do I believe that it is Catholic.

Jesus healed the sick. He did not say, But can you afford me to heal you? Do you have insurance. If so, is your -present illness a pre-existing condition not covered under your policy?

Come on. This is a no-brainer. The NHS isn’t perfect but it’s far morally superior to any employment- or other merit-based system out there.
 
The NHS is not failing. It is flawed. There’s a difference.
You admit you are losing doctors and hospitals are closing? Is that trend improving or getting worse?
I do not agree with the philosophy of social darwinism. Nor do I believe that it is Catholic.
What has social darwinism got to do with this issue?
Jesus healed the sick. He did not say, But can you afford me to heal you? Do you have insurance. If so, is your -present illness a pre-existing condition not covered under your policy?
Is the NHS the embodyment of Jesus Christ?😉
Come on. This is a no-brainer. The NHS isn’t perfect but it’s far morally superior to any employment- or other merit-based system out there.
**You **say it’s morally superior – but that doesn’t make it so. If it can stand on its own two legs, provide the same quality of care more open systems provide and not require other nations to flush their systems down the same commode, then I’ll agree it’s a success. But not that it’s “morally superior.”
 
In other words, when it isn’t working, pour more money into the system, and make it even more expensive and less responsive.
That’s not what I said.
It sounds like you consider the system more important that its mission!
Again, read my post, that’s not what I said.
It might be failing because it has been sabotaged by alien lunch-eaters from the planet Zolgarsh. But the real reason it’s failing is the same reason the Soviet Union failed – a centralized, planned economy cannot work.
If you want to think that…
It does follow, and very simply – Canada isn’t paying the fair economic value for healthcare.
Just because Canada cannot match US wages it does not mean that the doctors are not well or fairly paid - that’s why it doesn’t follow - that’s obvious, isn’t it.
When did failure become the yardstick for whether something is right or not?
It didn’t - read my post.
Absolutely. Either go back to a more open, competitive health care system, or pay the doctors their fair economic wages.
“Competetive”, as the NHS is starting to find, can mean that the patients at the bottom lose out. Following the US system is making things worse, not better.
You can make that challenge after you fulfil the mission statement, not before.
There’s no good time to make a challenge like that - now’s as good a time as any!

So, to deal with the title of the thread - are you happy with the status quo in the US - or is Universal Healthcare something that is implicit in the Gospels?

Peace 🙂
 
Just because Canada cannot match US wages it does not mean that the doctors are not well or fairly paid - that’s why it doesn’t follow - that’s obvious, isn’t it.
What’s obvious is the doctors don’t agree with you – which is why they are leaving.

A thing (including medical care) is what a willing buyer will offer and a willing seller will accept. Systems that violates that principle cause serious problems for themselves.
“Competetive”, as the NHS is starting to find, can mean that the patients at the bottom lose out. Following the US system is making things worse, not better.
So the doctors who left Canada are returning, and the hospitals that closed are re-opening?
There’s no good time to make a challenge like that - now’s as good a time as any!
That’s disingenuous. Only when you succeed in your objective can you consider additional criteria.
So, to deal with the title of the thread - are you happy with the status quo in the US - or is Universal Healthcare something that is implicit in the Gospels?

Peace 🙂
Universal healthcare is not implicit in the gospels – even Jesus, who had the power, healed sparingly. Unless, of course, you claim that no one died in the whole world during His time on earth.

But you go beyond that – you declare achieving quality healthcare for all can only be done by a centeralized system. Despite the obvious failings of such a system. Which is why I infer you consider the system more important than its mission.

In any case, it’s your system, not ours. And we have no obligation to cripple our system following your route.
 
I’m replying to Vern Humphrey.

I’ll admit my epithet ‘social darwinism’ was more a rhetorical remark than a means of classification.

The NHS is in serious financial trouble. But I would contend that its most serious flaws are managerial, not philosophical. There are too many administrators, eg middle managers. But anyone legally visiting or residing in Britain have access to health care. No money required. My National Insurance premium each month, taken from my paycheque, is invested to that end.

I’ll see you and raise you this. There are folk graduating medical school with consultant qualifications (specialists in American idiom) and leaving for America, etc to find jobs. That is tragic and wrong. But I seriously wonder how many long for a system that would allow them to apply the best medical technology Britain has to offer (and it is rather adequate I can assure you) for ‘the least of these’, gainfully employed, indigent, alien, or otherwise. Insofar as they do it for them they have done it for Christ.

A cup of water to preserve a life is quite akin to an appendectomy, or insulin to treat diabetes (a ‘pre-existing condition’ not covered by many legal insurance plans in America, if I’m not mistaken?)
 
I’m replying to Vern Humphreys.

I’ll admit my epithet ‘social darwinism’ was more a rhetorical remark than a means of classification.

The NHS is in serious financial trouble. But I would contend that its most serious flaws are managerial, not philosophical. There are too many administrators, eg middle managers.
That is what always happens in such situations! Here in the US we spend more on “poverty programs” by several fold than we would spend if we simply sent every poor person a check to bring them up above the poverty level.

It is inherent in the beast.

And yet Canadian doctors are leaving Canada and Canadian hospitals are closing.
But anyone legally visiting or residing in Britain have access to health care. No money required. My National Insurance premium each month, taken from my paycheque, is invested to that end.
Look at the two sentences I bolded. Does not the second sentence contradict the first.
I’ll see you and raise you this. There are folk graduating medical school with consultant qualifications (specialists in American idiom) and leaving for America, etc to find jobs. That is tragic and wrong. But I seriously wonder how many long for a system that would allow them to apply the best medical technology Britain has to offer (and it is rather adequate I can assure you) for ‘the least of these’, gainfully employed, indigent, alien, or otherwise. Insofar as they do it for them they have done it for Christ.
The cold, hard fact is, they are leaving. The wondering about how they would enjoy a perfect system is pointless – because the imperfections in the system are driving them out.
A cup of water to preserve a life is quite akin to an appendectomy, or insulin to treat diabetes (a ‘pre-existing condition’ not covered by many legal insurance plans in America, if I’m not mistaken?)
I don’t see your point – “pre-existing conditions” are simply subject to a time where they cannot be covered by a new policy. You can’t go without health insurance all your life, pocket what you would pay in premiums, and then the day you’re diagnosed with diabetes buy a policy and expect coverage – that wouldn’t be fair to the other insured.

So if you skated, paying no preminums for years, it is only fair you pay for the early months of your treatment – the later months will be covered by your new policy.

Let me point out that insulin is a drug, not a treatment. Here’s what drug price controls have done for us.

Drugs are cheaper in Europe and Canada because the American consumer is forced to bear the whole burden of drug Research and Development, while other nations get a free ride. In effect, if an American company refuses to sell a new drug at their prices, they take the American patent and assign manufacturing rights to one of their own companies (paying a tiny royalty.)

Cost controls destroy the ability of companies to recoup their costs in R&D. In 1990, before introducing cost controls, Europe as a whole outspent the US by 60% in R&D. By 2000, though, they had thrown away their lead and were spending 40% less than the US.

Cost controls in Canada killed competition in their drug industry. As a result, generic drugs are more expensive in Canada than in the US. Twenty-one of the top 27 best-selling generic drugs cost more in Canada than in the US. And the combined price for all 27 was 37% higher in Canada than in the US!

The way to get drug costs down for everyone is to make Canada and the European nations bear their fair share of R&D costs, and take the burden off the American consumer. This would also allow Canadian and European drug companies to re-start their own R&D programs and dramatically speed up the development of new, life-saving drugs.
 
I don’t see your point that equal access to health care without necessarily individually paying for it (though that is the norm or else we’d have no NHS at all) and my paying in to the NHS are contradictory. Of course money is required. People don’t work for free, even in Communist systems. (I am not a Communist by the way – I’m sure you know the difference between socialism in the European sense and Communism in the Marxist sense.) In America the distinction is moot.

I also do not see the incompatibiliy between universal health care and better policies to encourage R&D, including the rationalisation of price controls allowing profitability for pharmaceutical firms, etc. Of course we must promote a system that backs incentive to risk and to invest. That’s what’s required to discover and finance new technology.

But I just don’t think merit-based access to health care is the best solution.

Let’s lay aside economics for the sake of the theological virtues: faith, hope and love. Just as they transcend the moral virtues, surely universal healthcare as an ideal transcends what is fiscally feasible, given current financial constraints (at least in theory?).
 
Please also realise that I abhor the fact that abortions are funded on the NHS. That is evil. But that is a particular evil, not a universal one attributable to the rationale behind the NHS and its kin in Canada and elsewhere.

And you can bet your erstwhile neighbour in Arkansas would fund all manner of evil medical practises were she to ascend to the throne at 1600 Pennslyvania Ave. This Obama bloke seems likewise predisposed. Is there no such thing as a Catholic alternative to the two-party Republican idolatry of unfettered free market economics, and the Democratic apostasy of moral relativism?
 
I don’t see your point that equal access to health care without necessarily individually paying for it (though that is the norm or else we’d have no NHS at all) and my paying in to the NHS are contradictory.
Send me your paycheck every month and every few years I will buy you a free car!😉

As PJ O’Rourke said, “If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it’s free.”

Let me give you an example – I had a private health care plan which terminated when I turned 65. Then I had to take the government program – and pay the premiums. Under the private system, my premiums were lower, and I had no co-payments.
Of course money is required. People don’t work for free, even in Communist systems.
And that is why doctors are leaving Canada.
I also do not see the incompatibiliy between universal health care and better policies to encourage R&D, including the rationalisation of price controls allowing profitability for pharmaceutical firms, etc. Of course we must promote a system that backs incentive to risk and to invest. That’s what’s required to discover and finance new technology.
So, having broken the R&D system and slowed down development of new, life-saving drugs for almost a generation, you agree we should talk about trying to fix the problem?

Why not just do away with price controls?
But I just don’t think merit-based access to health care is the best solution.
You don’t think such things as how sick a patient is should be considered?
Let’s lay aside economics for the sake of the theological virtues: faith, hope and love. Just as they transcend the moral virtues, surely universal healthcare as an ideal transcends what is fiscally feasible, given current financial constraints (at least in theory?).
When you ignore the economics, faith, hope and love go out the window.

Imagine how many people have died for lack of drugs that could have been developed if not for European and Canadian price controls. Was condemning those people do die an act of faith, hope or love?
 
It’s almost midnight here in UK and I’m off to bed. I hope to continue this dialogue but not tonight…
 
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