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El_Paulo
Guest
Just to be devil’s advovateIf hospitals are closing in Canada and doctors fleeing the country, the Canadians have violated moral pragmatism – and blaming the doctors don’t feed the bulldog.![]()
Just to be devil’s advovateIf hospitals are closing in Canada and doctors fleeing the country, the Canadians have violated moral pragmatism – and blaming the doctors don’t feed the bulldog.![]()
There are those who assure us that if we give them all power and all our money, they will bring us paradise on earth. When they fail to deliver, the have ready-made excuses:Understood.Was that Kant’s philosophy too?
Hospitals are closing in Canada because of the politicians. The doctors aren’t at fault though many still feel they left for the money. I think it’s the politicians. The hospital I was born in could still be open today but it isn’t. And they had just done hundreds of thousands of dollars of renovation work a few years before it closed. It is now a place where they train police dogs and it may be torn down. Such a shame.
Oh…and another hospital no longer has an emergency room.![]()
What did I do here in Stone County, Arkansas, to cause doctors to flee Canada?Just to be devil’s advovate, could it be possible that the rest of us are ‘in the wrong’ and are putting Canada in an unacceptable position? Aren’t WE causing the shortage in Canada and it’s actually us who need to change to fit in with God’s will?
The moral soundness of this particular organization is its ability to deliver health care. To the extent the availability and quality of healthcare is deteriorating, to that extent it has failed.Just because an organisation is ‘successful’, it doesn’t mean it’s morally sound.![]()
mary bobo;1814282:
Those American doctors to which you refer may not want to practice in a socialized system. And somewhere along the line some have inferred that it is not right for a physician not to want to make money. It is their “job”. They have families to feed, staffs to pay, not to mention malpractice insurance.What constrictions though? A doctor’s job is to treat the sick. There are no constrictions to doing that are there? If a doctor leaves our country for yours, it’s most likely that he/she is doing it for the money. You don’t see many American doctors coming here do you?
hoosierdaddy;1826340:
Having drilled a hole in the bottom of the boat, they blame the ocean for rushing in instead of draining out.Those American doctors to which you refer may not want to practice in a socialized system. And somewhere along the line some have inferred that it is not right for a physician not to want to make money. It is their “job”. They have families to feed, staffs to pay, not to mention malpractice insurance.![]()
I don’t totally agree.The moral soundness of this particular organization is its ability to deliver health care.
I would suggest that WE have failed. With regard to America and Canada, the US health system may have to accept that it is having a negative effect on the Canadian system without intending to - in other words, people are going without healthcare because of the inflated wages being paid to American doctors compared to Canadian doctors. Our moral responsibilities do not end with fulfilling a mission statment, no matter how noble that statment is (and healthcare is amongst the noblest). Though it may be difficult to change this status quo, healthcare for ALL is the goal, and we can only do it by working together and taking a combined responsibility - America and Canada. To close our eyes to the problems of others is the moral faliure.To the extent the availability and quality of healthcare is deteriorating, to that extent it has failed.
But here’s the key point. The system was set up to provide health care. The quality is deteriorating, hospitals are closing, and doctors are leaving.I don’t totally agree.
For example, if a company fulfilled all it’s employment responsibilities in its native country, if it payed generous but fair wages, if it offered job security and a good pension…
but treated its overseas workers appallingly, did not respect their rights and paid low wages or even employed child labour then that company would rightly be taken to task irrespective of how it fulfilled its moral obligations at home.
Now, of course, this is an extreme example but I am citing it to try and explain that we no longer, if we ever did, live in a vacuum. What we do in one part of the world has repercussions in another.
Right. Now, who has the guts to apply effective corrective action?I would suggest that WE have failed.
No!With regard to America and Canada, the US health system may have to accept that it is having a negative effect on the Canadian system without intending to - in other words, people are going without healthcare because of the inflated wages being paid to American doctors compared to Canadian doctors.
But they start with fulfilling the mission statement. And if we don’t fulfil the mission statement, we have failed and it is dishonest to introduce other criteria and claim moral success.Our moral responsibilities do not end with fulfilling a mission statment, no matter how noble that statment is (and healthcare is amongst the noblest).
The moral failure is to take a doctrinaire approach, to say “This way will work” even when it is patently failing.Though it may be difficult to change this status quo, healthcare for ALL is the goal, and we can only do it by working together and taking a combined responsibility - America and Canada. To close our eyes to the problems of others is the moral faliure.
I agree, this needs to be looked at, I have no problem with that suggestion.But here’s the key point. The system was set up to provide health care. The quality is deteriorating, hospitals are closing, and doctors are leaving.
Again, I agree, but isn’t it sensible to look at all the reasons why it might be failing? If one believes that Universal Healthcare is a moral obligation then one cannot simply adopt another system that negates that happening - even if they do pay more in such a system.That’s failure. We cannot suddenly introduce other criteria and claim success when the system has failed in its primary aim.
This doesn’t necessarily follow.The fact that consumers are offereing more in the US and doctors are accepting it tells us it is economically fair. The doctor’s wages in the US are not “inflated” – the Canadian wages are depressed.
No argument - the mission statement needs to be fufilled.But they start with fulfilling the mission statement. And if we don’t fulfil the mission statement, we have failed and it is dishonest to introduce other criteria and claim moral success.
Agreed - Canada needs to ask itself how it can provide Universal Healthcare more effectively - but it cannot give up that key principle in the process. It may have to ask the US for understanding in doing this.The moral failure is to take a doctrinaire approach, to say “This way will work” even when it is patently failing.
In other words, when it isn’t working, pour more money into the system, and make it even more expensive and less responsive.By looking at this from a different view point, I am not disagreeing with you - in fact I agree with a lot of what you’ve said - I’m taking a ‘yes, and’, rather than a ‘no, instead’, approach.
Needs to be looked at?I agree, this needs to be looked at, I have no problem with that suggestion.
It might be failing because it has been sabotaged by alien lunch-eaters from the planet Zolgarsh. But the real reason it’s failing is the same reason the Soviet Union failed – a centralized, planned economy cannot work.Again, I agree, but isn’t it sensible to look at all the reasons why it might be failing? If one believes that Universal Healthcare is a moral obligation then one cannot simply adopt another system that negates that happening - even if they do pay more in such a system.
It does follow, and very simply – Canada isn’t paying the fair economic value for healthcare.This doesn’t necessarily follow.![]()
When did failure become the yardstick for whether something is right or not?When did democratic capitalism become the yardstick for whether something is right or not?
Absolutely. Either go back to a more open, competitive health care system, or pay the doctors their fair economic wages.This situation is damaging the Canadian Healthcare system - would you not advocate action to stop this happening?
You can make that challenge after you fulfil the mission statement, not before.No argument - the mission statement needs to be fufilled.
What I challenge is the assumption that it is, therefore, enough.
First, Canada’s healthcare system needs to take into account whether it is damaging Canada’s healthcare system. Cast out the beam in your own eye before you discuss the speck in outs.As I said before, thousands of (on the surface) seemingly ethically run companies have had to change the way they operate because they discovered they were causing problems in other parts of the world. If a situation changes then the moral questions change and that cannot be ignored. The US healthcare system NOW needs to take into account whether it is damaging Canada’s health service - the conclusion might be that it is not - but the question needs to be asked if what has been raised on this thread is true.
You have our understanding – we understand you are set on proving once again that a centralized, planned economy cannot work.Agreed - Canada needs to ask itself how it can provide Universal Healthcare more effectively - but it cannot give up that key principle in the process. It may have to ask the US for understanding in doing this.
You admit you are losing doctors and hospitals are closing? Is that trend improving or getting worse?The NHS is not failing. It is flawed. There’s a difference.
What has social darwinism got to do with this issue?I do not agree with the philosophy of social darwinism. Nor do I believe that it is Catholic.
Is the NHS the embodyment of Jesus Christ?Jesus healed the sick. He did not say, But can you afford me to heal you? Do you have insurance. If so, is your -present illness a pre-existing condition not covered under your policy?
**You **say it’s morally superior – but that doesn’t make it so. If it can stand on its own two legs, provide the same quality of care more open systems provide and not require other nations to flush their systems down the same commode, then I’ll agree it’s a success. But not that it’s “morally superior.”Come on. This is a no-brainer. The NHS isn’t perfect but it’s far morally superior to any employment- or other merit-based system out there.
That’s not what I said.In other words, when it isn’t working, pour more money into the system, and make it even more expensive and less responsive.
Again, read my post, that’s not what I said.It sounds like you consider the system more important that its mission!
If you want to think that…It might be failing because it has been sabotaged by alien lunch-eaters from the planet Zolgarsh. But the real reason it’s failing is the same reason the Soviet Union failed – a centralized, planned economy cannot work.
Just because Canada cannot match US wages it does not mean that the doctors are not well or fairly paid - that’s why it doesn’t follow - that’s obvious, isn’t it.It does follow, and very simply – Canada isn’t paying the fair economic value for healthcare.
It didn’t - read my post.When did failure become the yardstick for whether something is right or not?
“Competetive”, as the NHS is starting to find, can mean that the patients at the bottom lose out. Following the US system is making things worse, not better.Absolutely. Either go back to a more open, competitive health care system, or pay the doctors their fair economic wages.
There’s no good time to make a challenge like that - now’s as good a time as any!You can make that challenge after you fulfil the mission statement, not before.
What’s obvious is the doctors don’t agree with you – which is why they are leaving.Just because Canada cannot match US wages it does not mean that the doctors are not well or fairly paid - that’s why it doesn’t follow - that’s obvious, isn’t it.
So the doctors who left Canada are returning, and the hospitals that closed are re-opening?“Competetive”, as the NHS is starting to find, can mean that the patients at the bottom lose out. Following the US system is making things worse, not better.
That’s disingenuous. Only when you succeed in your objective can you consider additional criteria.There’s no good time to make a challenge like that - now’s as good a time as any!
Universal healthcare is not implicit in the gospels – even Jesus, who had the power, healed sparingly. Unless, of course, you claim that no one died in the whole world during His time on earth.So, to deal with the title of the thread - are you happy with the status quo in the US - or is Universal Healthcare something that is implicit in the Gospels?
Peace![]()
That is what always happens in such situations! Here in the US we spend more on “poverty programs” by several fold than we would spend if we simply sent every poor person a check to bring them up above the poverty level.I’m replying to Vern Humphreys.
I’ll admit my epithet ‘social darwinism’ was more a rhetorical remark than a means of classification.
The NHS is in serious financial trouble. But I would contend that its most serious flaws are managerial, not philosophical. There are too many administrators, eg middle managers.
Look at the two sentences I bolded. Does not the second sentence contradict the first.But anyone legally visiting or residing in Britain have access to health care. No money required. My National Insurance premium each month, taken from my paycheque, is invested to that end.
The cold, hard fact is, they are leaving. The wondering about how they would enjoy a perfect system is pointless – because the imperfections in the system are driving them out.I’ll see you and raise you this. There are folk graduating medical school with consultant qualifications (specialists in American idiom) and leaving for America, etc to find jobs. That is tragic and wrong. But I seriously wonder how many long for a system that would allow them to apply the best medical technology Britain has to offer (and it is rather adequate I can assure you) for ‘the least of these’, gainfully employed, indigent, alien, or otherwise. Insofar as they do it for them they have done it for Christ.
I don’t see your point – “pre-existing conditions” are simply subject to a time where they cannot be covered by a new policy. You can’t go without health insurance all your life, pocket what you would pay in premiums, and then the day you’re diagnosed with diabetes buy a policy and expect coverage – that wouldn’t be fair to the other insured.A cup of water to preserve a life is quite akin to an appendectomy, or insulin to treat diabetes (a ‘pre-existing condition’ not covered by many legal insurance plans in America, if I’m not mistaken?)
Send me your paycheck every month and every few years I will buy you a free car!I don’t see your point that equal access to health care without necessarily individually paying for it (though that is the norm or else we’d have no NHS at all) and my paying in to the NHS are contradictory.
And that is why doctors are leaving Canada.Of course money is required. People don’t work for free, even in Communist systems.
So, having broken the R&D system and slowed down development of new, life-saving drugs for almost a generation, you agree we should talk about trying to fix the problem?I also do not see the incompatibiliy between universal health care and better policies to encourage R&D, including the rationalisation of price controls allowing profitability for pharmaceutical firms, etc. Of course we must promote a system that backs incentive to risk and to invest. That’s what’s required to discover and finance new technology.
You don’t think such things as how sick a patient is should be considered?But I just don’t think merit-based access to health care is the best solution.
When you ignore the economics, faith, hope and love go out the window.Let’s lay aside economics for the sake of the theological virtues: faith, hope and love. Just as they transcend the moral virtues, surely universal healthcare as an ideal transcends what is fiscally feasible, given current financial constraints (at least in theory?).
While you’re at it, read Chapter 5 of 1 Timothy and consider how it applies to this discussion.It’s almost midnight here in UK and I’m off to bed. I hope to continue this dialogue but not tonight…