Universal Healthcare, Is it scriptural?

[Voco_proTatiano]

Part 2

Jesus didn’t praise Judas for the sentiment–he REBUKED him!

It is not evil to REBUKE those who say that ANY stewardship of our nation’s wealth that does not include universal healtcare is wrong.

It is not!

Does that mean that we shouldn’t take small steps to cover more and more people? Of course we should take such steps.

But we can’t just go whole hog and say we’re going to provide trillions of dollars in universal healthcare when we have a crisis coming in social security.

Every dollar that is taxed from citizens will be one dollar that our local Catholic parishes will not have access to!

I would much rather keep paying the retirements of elderly people than to snatch that away to provide universal healthcare.

Of course the tired old refrain is that we can AFFORD it.

Just go ahead and tax everyone’s brains out so we can afford it and you tell me how much wealth our economy will provide or how strong our national defense will be.

If your nation was seen as benevolent rather than malignant, you could spend so much less on defence, so have so much more to spend on welfare.

Some people believe in a Jesus of their own making. They believe that Jesus would be a Democrat if he lived in the US today and would support socialism in all forms–universal healthcare REGARDLESS of cost.

Jesus was no fool. He was aware of limited resources. But somehow, he managed to feed five thousand with seven loaves and a few fishes! Manging resources with a vengience!

They would never believe in the Jesus that rebuked Judas. They wouldn’t believe in the Jesus who paid taxes to Caesar knowing that Rome would fight UNJUST wars with it. That just wouldn’t be a LIBERAL enough Jesus for them!

Jesus said:‘Render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar’s, but unto GOD, that which is GOD’s’, but all his hearer understood that the true meaning was: Everything belongs to GOD, hence nothing belongs to Caesar. That did not mean that Caesar’s tax should not be paid, it was just excusing those who did not wish to make martyrs of themselves unecessarily.
And note, he did not quibble whether the taxes paid for female infanticide, or as you said, unjust wars.

The bottom line of all of this is that I believe on a personal basis that we should do more to take care of the sick and I believe our government could spend its money better to take care of more of them.

I agree.

Just please spare me the same old pleas that say if we don’t support socialist universal healthcare that we aren’t following Christ.

I was only stating that as the government purports to do the will of the people, then if it is our will that the needy be supported, and that is surely what should be our will, for so, Our Lord bids us, then that should be our governments mandated policy. The logic is quite straight-forward. If we will our government to do evil, or abstain from good, then we are guilty of their offence.

That is rubbish! Right now I don’t make enough money to help fulfill the needs of healthcare by all the people in the country that need it and guess what–Jesus hasn’t asked me to provide all that money!

Read again the Gospels. You are commanded, on pain of damnation to goathood, to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, visit the sick, and those in prison. The latter two, visit meant provide physical comfort as well as spiritual, ie, clothing, food and drink. This was more or less the limit of medicine in those days. This of course was not expected to be an excessive demand upon your personal resources. You were expected, in such an even to call upon communal resourses, ie the Church, or the state.

He does ask me to be a good steward of what I have and to vote for people that will be good stewards of what my nation has.

If you require the state to worship Mammon, you arealso guilty of apostacy.

That doesn’t include universal healthcare! I wish universal healthcare could be provided while still being a good steward of the nation’s wealth and while still being able to provide for ALL its needs. That is impossible.

Indeed, the state cannot achieve perfection, that belongs to another realm. That does not mean that the state should be excused from the attempt to do what is possible.
End of Part 2

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Part 3

The most important thing though is to not let any NEED blind us to Fulfilling all of Christ’s commandments.

Trying to pay for universal healthcare when you don’t have the money is like “casting our pearls before the swine”. Jesus told us not to do that. That is my SCRIPTURAL reason for not supporting universal healthcare!

You are out of context here.
Our Lord clearly said that if your beast fell into a pit on the Sabbath, you were to haul it out. If your beast was thirsty, you were to provide it drink.
No, I am not calling for Liposuction, breast implants, plastic surgery on medicare, unless such are required to repair damage which is life threatening, or so grossly disfiguring that the victim cannot lead a normal life. That would indeed be feeding pearls to swine, but calling the vet to an injured beast is required of you, even on the Sabbath.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

We’ll now return to the regularly scheduled program of this thread sponsored Liberal Catholics of the Democratic Party united for the preparation of the electorate for the election of the Whore of Babylon by any means possible including scripture!

And one last thing to anyone who may wish to censor my comments or ban me–if this thread is not Pure politics for Pure political ends then evidently anyone who disagrees with universal healtcare and doesn’t think that the Catholic Church requires such belief to be a fatihful follower of Christ doesn’t have the politically correct politics that are expected at this forum!

No pope has ever said that universal healthcare is scriptural. Jesus never said that universal healthcare is scriptural.

If I go down I’ll go down with the popes and with scripture and with Jesus!

 

[mlchance]

You can have those rights, and you can take them with you to your new kingdom, which you can share with the rich man who pleaded for comfort from Lazarus.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I’ll call any vet anytime to take care of a beast on the Sabbath as I am required to do. I am not required to vote for politicians that will support a government program of universal healthcare for such beasts with tax dollars.

Such logic wouldn’t be of man–it would be of beasts!

And when it comes to separating the sheep from the goats Jesus puts the sheep on the RIGHT side and the goats on the LEFT!

Does the Catholic political left see the implication?

Can someone tell me how the nation exercising stewardship of the wealth it has is worship of mammon and how support of it exercising stewardship of money amounts to apostacy?

Can someone also tell me where in the gospels I am commanded to feed ALL the hungry and visit ALL the sick and tell me how that superscedes every other commandment of jesus?

Jesus did more than just feed the hungry and take care of the sick. He spent much time praying. All the time he spent praying he could have been feeding the hungry and taking care of the sick. Did that make Jesus a bad person? NO!!!

And if Jesus really believed that it was necessary for the GOVERNMENT and not INDIVIDUALS to take care of the sick and feed the hungry He could have told us! He didn’t!

Can someone tell me what makes someone Christlike enough to the point that they can EXTRAPOLATE what jesus wants so as to tie in with their political agenda?

The magisterium of the Church might have that authority–they haven’t told me that it is scriptural to vote for politicians who support universal healtcare on pain of sin–WHY should I listen to people who are not of the magisterium telling me that they KNOW that is Christ’s command?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If I have offended anyone in this thread I am sorry. I will bow out of this discussion. To be sure the sick need to be taken care of and to be sure the government is in some way an extension of all of us.

I don’t know what the exact amount of healthcare should be provided for by the government–all I know is that it is my responsibility to do what I can to help the sick.

The Catholic Church should always lend its voice to moral questions that our government debates whether it be healtcare–war, capital punishment, abortion, treatment of illegal aliens or prisoners, environment, etc.–the list is endless.

Just always be careful when it comes to saying what the Bible wants from all of us on an individual basis and what it by extension requires from our government. Those things are not always synonymous.

Love all of those who fight the battle of providing helathcare to the sick–love the ones who believe that this is a private function and those who believe it is a government function and love people who believe it is both.

Sometimes our faith and politics do mix and we are called to be the salt of the Earth. We are called to flavor the political debate but we should never let politics flavor us or our faith.

Love,

Jerry-Jet

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Dear Jerry-Jet,
I am not offended.

If I have offended anyone in this thread I am sorry. I will bow out of this discussion. To be sure the sick need to be taken care of and to be sure the government is in some way an extension of all of us.

I understand that your culture affects your attitudes. When you see Socialism, you think of Honiker’s East Germany, Stalin’s Russia, and Mao tse Tung’s China.
These nations called themselves Socialist, but they were national prisons. All things can be taken too far.
Most of ‘old’ Europe has a political climate which you might define as socialist, being that all EU countries now have a degree of welfare support which you in the Southern States find abhorrent.

I don’t know what the exact amount of healthcare should be provided for by the government–all I know is that it is my responsibility to do what I can to help the sick.

Yes, and to a degree, it is your choice, whether you act directly, or through a voluntary agency, or mandate the state to act on your behalf.
It has to be stated, and bluntly so, that for major disaster relief, the military is by far the best agency to use, as it has man-power, and materiel, which can easily be set to the task.

The Catholic Church should always lend its voice to moral questions that our government debates whether it be healthcare–war, capital punishment, abortion, treatment of illegal aliens or prisoners, environment, etc.–the list is endless.

Yes, I agree.

Just always be careful when it comes to saying what the Bible wants from all of us on an individual basis and what it by extension requires from our government. Those things are not always synonymous.

I am not too sure on this. I accept that certain people are called to a higher calling than others, for instance, the clergy are called to celibacy, while others are called to general compassion.
I do not expect the state to be mandated to a higher calling than the ordinary man is called to. That would be hypocritical.
I still maintain that to expect the state to do your dirty work, dirties your hands. What we feel mandated to do, we should mandate the state to do.

Love all of those who fight the battle of providing healthcare to the sick–love the ones who believe that this is a private function and those who believe it is a government function and love people who believe it is both.

Sometimes our faith and politics do mix and we are called to be the salt of the Earth. We are called to flavor the political debate but we should never let politics flavor us or our faith.

Love,

Jerry-Jet

We are not far apart Jerry, but remember, Our Lord’s message was not just spiritual. He did not command us to sit under a tree and contemplate our navels: he sent us out to change the world. That is politics.
He sent us forth as doves of compassion, to make the world a more compassionate place, and that means making politics more compassionate.

In pax domini

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

I’ll call any vet anytime to take care of a beast on the Sabbath as I am required to do. I am not required to vote for politicians that will support a government program of universal healthcare for such beasts with tax dollars.

Such logic wouldn’t be of man–it would be of beasts!

And when it comes to separating the sheep from the goats Jesus puts the sheep on the RIGHT side and the goats on the LEFT!

Does the Catholic political left see the implication?

Can someone tell me how the nation exercising stewardship of the wealth it has is worship of mammon and how support of it exercising stewardship of money amounts to apostacy?

Can someone also tell me where in the gospels I am commanded to feed ALL the hungry and visit ALL the sick and tell me how that superscedes every other commandment of jesus?

Matthew 25: 31 - 46
And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.
And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats, and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in, naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me:
And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.
And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats, and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in, naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me:
Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
Then he shall answer them, saying:** Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me**.
And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Jesus did more than just feed the hungry and take care of the sick. He spent much time praying. All the time he spent praying he could have been feeding the hungry and taking care of the sick. Did that make Jesus a bad person? NO!!!

And if Jesus really believed that it was necessary for the GOVERNMENT and not INDIVIDUALS to take care of the sick and feed the hungry He could have told us! He didn’t!

Can someone tell me what makes someone Christlike enough to the point that they can EXTRAPOLATE what jesus wants so as to tie in with their political agenda?

The magisterium of the Church might have that authority–they haven’t told me that it is scriptural to vote for politicians who support universal healtcare on pain of sin–WHY should I listen to people who are not of the magisterium telling me that they KNOW that is Christ’s command?