Universal Jursidiction

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Why not what about Sacred Tradition.

Not to mention the bible is full of proof.

The Bible says consequences of Satans infulence is sin and death. The bible says Mary shared her sons victory over Satan, God put enmity towards the devil.

Luke says she sustained fullness of Grace. Again scriptual proof Grace given to her by God. And Rev. proves it, showing her body assumed into heaven. I mean come on, like the song says Who’s that Lady?😃

What about Psalm? Arise O lord into your resting place you and the ARK into which you have sancified!

I mean no offese but there is scripture all over the place proving the Assumption body and Soul of our Mother Mary.
Let’s see some scriptures to back up you’re mouth. Scripture nowhere teaches that Mary’s body was taken up like Elija the Prophet.
 
Wrong! The job has been taken in eternity past, Yeshua the rock the Chief corner stone is the head of the church, which is the body of Christ, not a building with stained glass windows.

Eph_1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph_5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
A couple of points:

1.) You seem to think that Christ being referred to as Rock and St. Peter being referred to as the rock on which the Church was built is contradictory; that is a mistake, and the Fathers never saw it that way. For example, St. Ambrose wrote:

“'Christ is the Rock, ‘For they drank from that spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ, ’ and** He did not refuse to bestow the favor of this title even upon His disciple, so that he too might be ‘Peter,’ in that he has from the Rock a solid consistancy of firm faith.**’ (Ambrose, Expos. in Luc.).”

Source: catholicbridge.com/catholic/pope_peter_rock.php (emphasis mine)

Yet he can also write about St. Peter:

“‘Peter is called the Rock because, like an immovable rock, he sustains and joins the mass of the entire Christian edifice.’ (Ambrose, Sermon 4).” (Ibid.)

2.) Likewise, the Catholic Church affirms that Christ is the Head of the Church. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church we read: “As Lord, Christ is also head of the Church, which is his Body.” (Par. 669)

But this truth does not negate that He left behind a visible head. Thus St. Ephraim could write:

“‘Simon my follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for Me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head and fountain from which all My teaching flows.’ (Ephraem, Homilies 4:1).”

Source: catholicbridge.com/catholic/pope_peter_rock.php (emphasis mine)

You will have to cite me official Catholic teaching which states that the Catholic Church teaches that the Church is “a building with stained glass windows”, or else admit that you have built a straw man here.
 
Let’s see some scriptures to back up you’re mouth. Scripture nowhere teaches that Mary’s body was taken up like Elija the Prophet.
I would say open another thread on it, maybe right after you open a thread where you prove that everything a Christian believes must be found in a 66 Book Canon of Scripture (wherein you then prove to us that say, The Book of Revelation belongs in that Bible using that Bible alone.)
 
I understand what you’re saying. I would just argue they do not rise to the level of warranting an anathema. I don’t have an issue with people who hold the IC or assumption to be true, even though I strongly disagree with them. That is an issue of their conscience/piety. Neither should those who do not hold to them have their consciences violated.

When it comes to iconoclasm, the idea that images are absolutely forbidden and a violation of the 2nd commandment is serious error, and thus warrants condemnation. Not venerating images is a matter of choice but forbidding Christians from having images is the error.
I see your point, although I don’t agree that it was wrong to dogmatize the Marian Dogmas. I’m guessing if we wanted to dig through all of the Canons from all of the Ecumenical Councils you accept, we might find one with an anathema attached to it that you feel the same way about (as you do about the Marian Dogmas)? No need to belabor the point though.

Here is a side question. What are Lutheran thoughts on the Ecumenical Councils and when do they make a “cut off” (like I am guessing you object to Trent obviously) Thanks.

–Nick
 
A couple of points:

1.) You seem to think that Christ being referred to as Rock and St. Peter being referred to as the rock on which the Church was built is contradictory; that is a mistake, and the Fathers never saw it that way. For example, St. Ambrose wrote:

“'Christ is the Rock, ‘For they drank from that spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ, ’ and** He did not refuse to bestow the favor of this title even upon His disciple, so that he too might be ‘Peter,’ in that he has from the Rock a solid consistancy of firm faith.**’ (Ambrose, Expos. in Luc.).”

Source: catholicbridge.com/catholic/pope_peter_rock.php (emphasis mine)

Yet he can also write about St. Peter:

“‘Peter is called the Rock because, like an immovable rock, he sustains and joins the mass of the entire Christian edifice.’ (Ambrose, Sermon 4).” (Ibid.)

2.) Likewise, the Catholic Church affirms that Christ is the Head of the Church. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church we read: “As Lord, Christ is also head of the Church, which is his Body.” (Par. 669)

But this truth does not negate that He left behind a visible head. Thus St. Ephraim could write:

“‘Simon my follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for Me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head and fountain from which all My teaching flows.’ (Ephraem, Homilies 4:1).”

Source: catholicbridge.com/catholic/pope_peter_rock.php (emphasis mine)

You will have to cite me official Catholic teaching which states that the Catholic Church teaches that the Church is “a building with stained glass windows”, or else admit that you have built a straw man here.
Sorry, scripture is the final authority over you’re intellect, feelings and traditions of men.

Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
Col 1:8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
**Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. **Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
 
Sorry, scripture is the final authority over you’re intellect, feelings and traditions of men.

Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
Col 1:7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
Col 1:8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
**Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. **Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
(Edit): There are many presuppositions in your response which I reject.

1.) Sola Scriptura

2.) That your interpretation of the text is correct (i.e. that any other headship is incompatible with Christ’s headship)

3.) That it is I who is following the traditions of men, or worse St. Ephraem and/or St. Ambrose

4.) That you are not following the traditions of men

Your post amounts to “you’re wrong, they are wrong” and a reposting of the same Scripture in a larger context. What does this prove?

Prove to me that Christ’s Headship of the Church is incompatible with Him leaving behind a visible head on earth. You can’t do that by just making an assertion and then re-posting the same text in question.
 
The Dormition of the Theotokos is a Teaching but we have not made it a “dogma” as the Latins have.

The Immaculate Conception is a doctrine that is uniquely Western. The East rejects the teaching of Inherited Guilt…None of us bear any guilt for Adam’s Sin so there was no stain to purify the Theotokos from…the dogma is viewed as superfluous at best.
I knew the first but not the second position.

Thank you.

So, to be more precise, was the Dormition known in the first millenium?
 
I was speaking in general terms but for you, here is something specific:

We are done here.

It isn’t a question of you swallowing our claims. Now it is about courtesy.

Cavaradossi (who is smarter than I) ended the dialogue and I am doing the same. You remind me of the guy in the bar in the movie Good Will Hunting. You use big words and flowery language to try and make people look stupid who disagree with you. I understand what you are saying, but find your tone offensive. You can have the last word as I will not respond to you again.
MB-

You and Cavaradossi have remarkably thin skins. You come to a Catholic Apologetics Forum to defend Orthodoxy, but you abandon the discussion when things get a little testy?

Isn’t that like a guy stepping into a boxing ring and whining after his nose gets bloodied?

Dude, what did you expect? Man up and defend your position like the Bishops of old!
 
(Edit): There are many presuppositions in your response which I reject.

1.) Sola Scriptura

2.) That your interpretation of the text is correct (i.e. that any other headship is incompatible with Christ’s headship)

3.) That it is I who is following the traditions of men, or worse St. Ephraem and/or St. Ambrose

4.) That you are not following the traditions of men
If you reject Sola Scripture, then you’re just another one of billions of baseless opinions, enjoy wallowing in confusion.
 
If you reject Sola Scripture, then you’re just another one of billions of baseless opinions, enjoy wallowing in confusion.
I’m not confused…

What’s confusing is that all of the Sola Scripturaists contradict one another.

I could say the same to you “enjoy wallowing in confusion”🤷
 
Sorry, scripture is the final authority over you’re intellect, feelings and traditions of men.
OK - Scripture…
Mt 16:17-19 - Jesus changes Simon’s name to Rock, Kepha in Aramaic - or Petros in Greek. He then states that it is upon this Kepha, this Rock that He, Jesus, would build His Church.

Mt 18:15-18 - Jesus instructs the disciples to take problems to the Church and to listen to the Church.

Significantly - these are the only two places in the Gospels that Jesus uses the word “Ekkleisa” - Church - and in each case He - Jesus Himself - attaches the authority to bind and loose - whatever.

Later - in the Book of Acts we find the Church in council exercising this authority in a dispute between the Church at Antioch and the Church at Jerusalem.

Add to this are these.
Eph 3:8-12 - it is through the Church that the Wisdom of God is mde known.
1 Tim 3:15 - the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth.

More Scripture speaks to unity - visible and profound -
John 17:20-21
20 (Jesus speaks) "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
**
Rom 15:5-6**
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

All of these Scriptures point to a universal, visible, authoritative Church…
Christ said it - the Holy Spirit caused it to be recorded and preserved - I believe it and therefore I am a member of, and submissive to His Church - because Christ my King tells me to in Scripture

Peace
James
 
Right, this is why scripture must be the final authority over our intellect feelings and traditions.
Methodists baptize infants. Baptists do not.

Both accept sola scriptura and have verses to support their postions.

Who is right?
 
MB-

You and Cavaradossi have remarkably thin skins. You come to a Catholic Apologetics Forum to defend Orthodoxy, but you abandon the discussion when things get a little testy?

Isn’t that like a guy stepping into a boxing ring whining after his nose gets bloodied?

Dude, what did you expect? Man up and defend your position like the Bishops of old!
Honestly, what is this garbage? What is is about the RCs in this discussion that they can’t stay on topic, but instead have to cast aspersions or, worse, flat out insult those of other Churches?!

I don’t think any of the Orthodox are here to “defend” our Faith in battle. Explain, correct misunderstandings, or discuss differences yes…but there is no Charity in personal verbal assaults, Randy Carson. I don’t blame them for withdrawing, lest this arrogant spectacle spark animosity in our hearts and tarnish all our wretched souls even more. Can it with the cheap shots…dude.

Since we’re discussing Universal Jurisdiction (presumably), perhaps I should print this out & mail it to the Vatican for (name removed by moderator)ut from The-Boss-of-You.
 
Right, this is why scripture must be the final authority over our intellect feelings and traditions.
This presupposes the Formal Sufficiency of Scripture, something which contradicts Scripture (2 Peter 3:16)

Go ahead and open up a thread on Sola Scriptura.
 
Let’s see some scriptures to back up you’re mouth. Scripture nowhere teaches that Mary’s body was taken up like Elija the Prophet.
Show me in Scriptures where it lists the books that should be included and where it says what the Old Testament is and what the New Testament is.

And while you are at it, let’s see some Scriptures saying that everything has to be in Scriptures.
 
Let’s see some scriptures to back up you’re mouth. Scripture nowhere teaches that Mary’s body was taken up like Elija the Prophet.
And where is the Scripture that says everything must be in and determined by Scripture?
 
Honestly, what is this garbage? What is is about the RCs in this discussion that they can’t stay on topic, but instead have to cast aspersions or, worse, flat out insult those of other Churches?!

I don’t think any of the Orthodox are here to “defend” our Faith in battle. Explain, correct misunderstandings, or discuss differences yes…but there is no Charity in personal verbal assaults, Randy Carson. I don’t blame them for withdrawing, lest this arrogant spectacle spark animosity in our hearts and tarnish all our wretched souls even more. Can it with the cheap shots…dude.

Since we’re discussing Universal Jurisdiction (presumably), perhaps I should print this out & mail it to the Vatican for (name removed by moderator)ut from The-Boss-of-You.
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I personally want to see Cavaradossi and company defend Orthodoxy because it is very educational…but they have to expect some tough answers from the class!

Don’t forget: The word “apologetics” (from Greek ἀπολογία, “speaking in defense”) is the discipline of defending a position (often religious) through the systematic use of information.

So, if you are in an apologetics forum, then you are by definition “defending” something…charitably, yes, but remember:

Proverbs 27:17
17 As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

Occasionally, sparks will fly. 😛
 
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